Official Rumour Thread: New Vampire Counts Book

[Luvadin]

With all these news and with the preorders in mind, I started to think about some possible combinations for the army, mainly trying to exploit the new synergies. I had the following idea for an army of 2500 points, which is approximately what this might cost:

Unit A:
- Vampire with demoralizing powers (the one to make the enemy repeat successful LD tests and the one that gives -1 LD)
- Wraith
- 35 Skeletons (5 wide) with screaming banner

Unit B:

- 6 Crypy Horrors

Unit C:

- Wight King BSB with Banner of the Eternal Flame
- 30 Grave Guard (horde) with Banner of the Barrows

Unit D:

- 35-40 Crypt Ghouls (horde)

These units would form the main battleline. The idea would be to have the GG at the middle and the Ghouls on one flank. Crypt Horrors and Skeletons would go together, making a good combo in terms of terror causing skeletons that may make the enemy have WS1. The opponent should decide which to hit: if he attacks the CH they might not cause many wounds and all the static CR from the skeletons adds to the final results (for which the enemy will not be unbreakable and will have trouble passing the LD test), and if they attack the skeletons, the power of the CH + Vampire + Wraith should compensate the second death of the animated bones.

All these would be powered up by a Corpse Cart with Balefire and a Mortis Engine with Master Necromancer right behind them.

On the flanks, behind the units, there would be a 1 x Spirit Host in each side: they would be ready to neutralize any flanker such as Mournfangs or to race to any monster that is spoted near.

This last part is the one I don't have totally clear. There could be a 5 wolves unit in each flank, ready to just bother, march block or even charge a warmachine to try to make it lose one shooting phase (Corpse Cart and Mortis Engine would not enter in combat at the beginning, so this is a way to protect them). This would be complemented by 3 Vargheists, which could go for the warmachines or, for example, provide a flanking support to the Ghouls.

And there's no room for anything else. Hexwraiths may be cool and could have a place here. I also wanted to include a Terrorgheist , but I've run out of points while trying to build a strong supported central battleline. With minor force, this goes also for the Black Coach or a Varghulf...

What do you think about this idea? Now that we have the new book nearly in our hands, what are your thoughts for your new lists?





PD: If this should be posted in another subforum I can erase the message and post it where it belongs, but in principle I thought there was not still enough information to post it in Legions of the Dammed.

 

[Sception]

from Warseer, more details on invocation:

Invo of Nehek:

D6 + level for infantry
1 for Vampire, Ethereal or Large things
1 + level for the rest

So hexknights, blood knights, vargulfs, Terrorgheists, and such heal one per cast. Dire wolves, fell bats, crypt horrors, and black knights heal 1 + caster level per cast. Grave guard, ghouls, zombies, skeletons heal d6 + caster level per cast.

Pretty cool. May not affect characters, though there is the lore attribute for that.

 

[Pyre]

Has anyone confirmed that we've lost the "march within 6" of a Vampire/12" of the general?" I will be pissed if its just within 12" of the general.



Pyre

 

[spineyrequiem]

Should just tell you, black knights DO still have spectral steeds. In case anyone was in doubt.

 

[Forgotten Heretic]

Has anyone confirmed that we've lost the "march within 6" of a Vampire/12" of the general?" I will be pissed if its just within 12" of the general.



Pyre

it is indeed now marching only if within 12" of the general unless you have the vampiric rule

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

They are not the best models but they do look good and the black knights are great.
They have huge hitting power and most things can't hit them and that is why they are weak when taking hits same as all out ethereal gear.
You can't have everything.

I wasnt complaining they are weak I was saying its good because its balanced. I like that an oponent can one shot them it means we are not as overpowered again as i thought. although I think its off zombies are now s3 t3 and cheaper aswell they are now better then skinks (which is wrong imho) Yes zombies should be tough but they should not be as strong as an elf or skink . What should happen is zombies should be t3 or t4 s2 or s1 .

I know but that was a personal observation.
I only disagree with you saying they are bad models.
Now the reason they are Toughness 3 and Strength 3 is because they are the recently dead.
The still have all their muscles etc, they would be no weaker than anyone else and because they will normally be human foes they face you get human stat zombies, also you can't complain they will lose muscle over time either as skeletons are strength 3 as well, wonder if I add zombie skin to a Skelly.... will he get a +1 to his armour?

Ah my wording messed up what I was trying to say. I dont dislike the models (well maybe the crazy ball balls on their weapons) I ment to say they are not worth taking in most games.


Agree on the zombies now makes sense that they are freshly dead so still have muscles etc. I see they still have the newly dead rule but this must have changed as Im sure someone said characters can join zombies now. I dont think zombies will be such a push over with 5 wraiths in the front.

I agree there, I dislike the balls/ skulls or whatever they are, I was going to trim them off mine.
They will only break off anyway.


Well with the new march restriction what they have done is forced us into a block army in order to move with cav that can move as fast as infantry and make varghiests a must take as they are the only things that can move freely bar the over priced blood knights....
The joy....

 

[HERO]

Translating some tidbits from Spanish forum:

>>> Dance Macabre = free move (no charge) or re-roll to Hit

>>> GG = 0,5 slaves for a 2HW

>>> Skeletons = free Spear swap for HW, Ld 3, 2.5 slaves for LA, Shield and HW

>>> Ghoul King is A5 as the Vampire Lord, he is 20 slaves more expensive but is +1 I -1 WS -1 LD plus the Hatred and Poison

>>> Vlad still comes back on a 2+ thanks to the Ring, if either of the Carstein couple dies, the other gets Hatred and Frenzy

>>> Magic levels on Vamps are 17.5 slaves

>>> Ghoul King can't take magic armour nor improve above his initial magic level 1

>>> Hero vamps can take Coven Throne

>>> Black Coach
3+ AS 4+ Ward
Power from Death same as before, but only works in your own Magic Phase, roll 1D6 for each of your PD, each 6 gives the Coach a "token" (same as before, only now it doesnt "leech" those PD):
1 - Scythed Wheels
2 - +1S for the Wraith and Nightmares
3 - Killing Blow and Flaming attacks for charge impacts, Wraith and Nightmares
4 - MR2 and free movement
5 - Ethereal
6 - Flight

>>> Hexwraiths can only do their fly-through thing to a single unit per turn

>>> It seems Dark Acolyte adds +1d3 to the casting roll, not to the amount of wounds recovered...

>>> Vampire Lord can choose Death/Shadow/Vampire Lores

 

[The Dead of Night]

Well with the new march restriction what they have done is forced us into a block army in order to move with cav that can move as fast as infantry and make varghiests a must take as they are the only things that can move freely bar the over priced blood knights....
The joy....

You're forgetting Varghulfs and my guess is if a vamp joins a unit, they will be able to march. Dire Wolves apparently have vanguard which will potentially help out a bit. Blood Knights are pretty well priced IMO, 5 points cheaper and higher I is perfect.

 

[Pladvoncarstein]

Well with the new march restriction what they have done is forced us into a block army in order to move with cav that can move as fast as infantry and make varghiests a must take as they are the only things that can move freely bar the over priced blood knights....
The joy....

You're forgetting Varghulfs and my guess is if a vamp joins a unit, they will be able to march. Dire Wolves apparently have vanguard which will potentially help out a bit. Blood Knights are pretty well priced IMO, 5 points cheaper and higher I is perfect.

Is it confirmed varghulfs are still vampires. Also From reading the WD and from other sources it seems only 12" from general can march regardless of having a vamp in the unit. Obviously vampires can still march.

 

[Uziel]

Well with the new march restriction what they have done is forced us into a block army in order to move with cav that can move as fast as infantry and make varghiests a must take as they are the only things that can move freely bar the over priced blood knights....
The joy....

I fear you are right here Duke. I suspect we'll see many new changes that will "gently" force us into buying the new models for our army to retain any tactical edge, since we already know that we won't win if we go "Horde" with our army.
I really dislike it when GW "uses" the launch of a new army book to "encourage" us to buy so many new models, and this is probably the worst case ever from a lore perspective, as nearly every new unit we are presented with is something totally new (never before featured in warhammer lore), which will leave me with the feeling that this now VC army is not a "proper" VC army for many years to come (as all this new stuff is assimilated into the current warhammer lore through novels etc).
Don't get me wrong, I like new stuff, and some of the new models are awesome (Krell in particular), but it irks me when they makes you buy a whole new army each time there is a new book, just by changing the army dynamic. New stuff is fine. Having to buy a whole new army is not...
One thing that I do hope for, that can perhaps give us another Flanking type unit, is if the Doomwolf upgrade allows the Dire Wolves to march. We can only hope.
On a side note, I had a look at GW's pages yesterday. Finecast Fell Bats?? Are you kidding me...

 

[spineyrequiem]

I'm pretty sure that, if ghouls can't be resurrected by IoN, that probably means they're Alive, so probably able to march independently. 'Course, it means they're also not unbreakable, but...

 

[Zephyr]

Has anyone confirmed that we've lost the "march within 6" of a Vampire/12" of the general?" I will be pissed if its just within 12" of the general.



Pyre

it is indeed now marching only if within 12" of the general unless you have the vampiric rule

Wait a minute...am I completely wrong here or not? I can remember this being the standard for two editions or not?

I don't feel pushed into buying a whole new army but maybe that's because I never used a lot of general Undead units; always big blocks that stuck close to my general anyway.
Sucks for cavalry....seems my Black Knights are going to be hovering near my Blood Knights now.

It's all about big shiny stuff these days and as a company GW wants to sell stuff, now if those new units would be both cool and affordable I'm happy but I just don't have the money for most of those new kits.

There used to be ridiculous Herohammer and now it seems MonsterHammer is here. I swear every DE army has two Hydras, every Skaven player an Abomb and so on. Yes all those big monsters and all are cool but they should be options and NOT necessary to have a competitive army.

Overall I'm positive with this release but I agree that there are some things that are starting to annoy me more and more but it's not as much a VC-only problem but the new direction GW is going in. And no I'm not liking where it is going, has been going for about five years now.

Happy to say that the artwork inside the new armybook is to die for. Just ignore the cover.:tongue:

Like the new Coach rules if those are true; too bad it doesn't leech enemy PD anymore but this will do. Also happy with the cost of Great Weapons for GG. I was afraid I'd have to start ripping arms off in my unit of 25 GG with GW...

 

[Forgotten Heretic]

Is it confirmed varghulfs are still vampires. Also From reading the WD and from other sources it seems only 12" from general can march regardless of having a vamp in the unit. Obviously vampires can still march.

its unsure about the varghulf, both the undead and vampiric rules are missing from its profile on GW site yet they say something in WD which suggests they are still vampires. i imagine they are and its just a mistake on the site, what would they do with it otherwise? make it a giant fellbat thats drank vampire blood?...... actually i could see that happening.

without draining enemy PD it looks like my black coach will be seeing even less daylight (figuratively) than it did before, even with the current magic rules i still love the idea of magic flying around and usually take a wizard lord, though i might get round to trying the odd combat list now that necro's can be the magic support.
at first glance i dont like the idea of only marching within 12" of my general, but when i think about it my infantry aren't usually much further away from him anyway so it should hopefully not make too much difference

 

[Pladvoncarstein]

a bit disapointed that the black coach doesnt drain dice anymore ours or our enemys. seems over powered that it can upgrade without wasting dice

 

[Forgotten Heretic]

a bit disapointed that the black coach doesnt drain dice anymore ours or our enemys. seems over powered that it can upgrade without wasting dice

it absorbs our own power dice but no longer absorbs the enemy dice

 

[Nagashizzar]

a bit disapointed that the black coach doesnt drain dice anymore ours or our enemys. seems over powered that it can upgrade without wasting dice

!

it absorbs our own power dice but no longer absorbs the enemy dice

I think it doesn't , it just give you tokens:

"(same as before, only now it doesnt "leech" those PD)"

 

[Forgotten Heretic]

ah i completely missed the last part saying it doesn't leech the dice anymore, i retract my earlier comment, its usefulness just went up
gonna have to stick the bloody thing back together now

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

Well with the new march restriction what they have done is forced us into a block army in order to move with cav that can move as fast as infantry and make varghiests a must take as they are the only things that can move freely bar the over priced blood knights....
The joy....

You're forgetting Varghulfs and my guess is if a vamp joins a unit, they will be able to march. Dire Wolves apparently have vanguard which will potentially help out a bit. Blood Knights are pretty well priced IMO, 5 points cheaper and higher I is perfect.

Still think they needed full plate to set them right.
If a vamp in the unit allows them to march though that would be a big help.

Now the army book, the inside looks great, the cover makes me want to go blind so I may pay to have a new cover be put on in leather with inscribed writing.
Only way to avoid shame.

The BC will probs go up in points cost as well, I was worried with us no longer having the old Master of Black arts for +2 power Dice but now it does not drain them and our magic casting spell values have been hiked up and our lores restricted we are going to be hard pushed to manage to buff our troops and keep them alive as it is, forget offensive spells.

Well with the new march restriction what they have done is forced us into a block army in order to move with cav that can move as fast as infantry and make varghiests a must take as they are the only things that can move freely bar the over priced blood knights....
The joy....

I fear you are right here Duke. I suspect we'll see many new changes that will "gently" force us into buying the new models for our army to retain any tactical edge, since we already know that we won't win if we go "Horde" with our army.
I really dislike it when GW "uses" the launch of a new army book to "encourage" us to buy so many new models, and this is probably the worst case ever from a lore perspective, as nearly every new unit we are presented with is something totally new (never before featured in warhammer lore), which will leave me with the feeling that this now VC army is not a "proper" VC army for many years to come (as all this new stuff is assimilated into the current warhammer lore through novels etc).
Don't get me wrong, I like new stuff, and some of the new models are awesome (Krell in particular), but it irks me when they makes you buy a whole new army each time there is a new book, just by changing the army dynamic. New stuff is fine. Having to buy a whole new army is not...
One thing that I do hope for, that can perhaps give us another Flanking type unit, is if the Doomwolf upgrade allows the Dire Wolves to march. We can only hope.
On a side note, I had a look at GW's pages yesterday. Finecast Fell Bats?? Are you kidding me...

Thank god you agreeing with me is in writing. (not got around to responding on blood knights yet. )

Going horde was fine prior because we had the speed and with 2 strong banners, now they have taken all that away, yeh BK still have the banner but unless you have a big unit or characters in it then its a waste of points.
It is true it will take us a long time to get to grips with things, especially with the new rules on the BC as well, its no longer has a negative effect but it will take twice as long to charge its power combined with the fact vampire can now take lore of Vamps, Death and shadow..... Oh joy, most our lore choices have gone.......

The new stuff is good but by not fixing crumble and now making us even more squishy we are in trouble.
We all know that monsters however strong they are get their arses handed to them by large blocks of elite troops.
Only difference is we have a 1 in 3 chance of rolling a save.
still not good when invocation has been scaled right back as well and some things can no longer even be brought back, ghouls for instance and more than likely crypt horrors just to get the ball rolling.

I doubt they will get the march on a unit upgrade.
The Fell bats would of been changed anyway as part of the switch over, just probs means we won't get new models for them, I myself just added Gargoyle wings to ghouls instead and they look good, Spirit hosts are flagellants and bat swarms are Razor Wings from Dark Eldar, after all Vlad loved bird, Mannfred controlled bird and Konrad Talked to birds.... So I just need to ask why the hell does Konrad have a cape made of bats?.... he has no affinity for them or magic to speak of...... FAIL!!!!! :slapface:



Now allot of the new kits look good but they are to be honest rather weak.
Mortis Engine for instance, can cause a few wounds around it, terror, 4+ regen and gives a +1 to all other regen in a random distance each turn....
120 skaven slaves without the tomb upgrade for +2 to cast?......
And its only toughness 5.....
These things will not last, they are overpriced cannonball fodder at best.

This is why my empire army has 3 cannons, 2 mortars, 1 hellblaster volley guns, a steam tank, 3 wizards and a tonne of hand gunners......
Because in a game where people care more about monsters it pawns.

 

[ATP485]

vampire can now take lore of Vamps, Death and shadow

I read that as a Vampire can take any of those lores without Forbidden Lore. So Forbidden Lore would open up all lores but life (and all spells). Fangs crossed.

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

We are not sure Forbidden lore works the same though, we may not have that access any longer.

 

[Grish]

The rumours I've seen says Forbidden Lore gives you access to a lore, but you still need to roll for spells. Unsure what affect this would have with multiple Vampires using the Vampire lore. Only one Vampire can roll VHD?

We'll have to wait to find out.

 

[Uziel]

Thank god you agreeing with me is in writing. (not got around to responding on blood knights yet. )

Hehe. Just because I don't agree with you on the Blood Knight issue Duke (especially since the Blood Knight unit for the Bloodline Legacies project is not limited to Walach's get/Ordo Draconis only), does not mean that I don't respect you and agree with you on other matters related to the game.
To be honest, we have a lot more in common as far as our opinions go than you probably think.

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

Never said you didn't mate but we both know neither will give so we will have to find a middle ground of compromise at some point that agrees with us both or we will argue till the death of the internet.
Probs do considering we both spend far to much time reading into the background.

Well with you only being allowed to roll the spell once I assume this is the case unless you have a lore master like mannfred.
provided he still has 2 full lores of course.

 

[Vallasch]

I was also a little perturbed by the 12" marching thing at first, however i do think Zephyr is correct. Every other iteration of the VC army book was the same, and it's actually the current (for a few days at least) book that's the exception. I think we may have just gotten a bit too comfy. When you really think about it 12" isn't that bad. It's still a 24" diameter bubble of march-capable units at the end of the day, which is a sizeable space on the board. Plus the indepent Vampire units tend to be on the far flanks anyway.

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

Yes but now there are very few independent units considering the vampire rule won't allow their march movement.
Also on small 4x4 tables its not that bad but anything above 2k on a larger table is going to be a big issue.
They will be all over you, out moving and shooting you, flanking every step of the way as its easy to move around you, you will just have one large bulk in the center with a couple squishy units on the flanks.