Okkam's Mind Razor Rule Change

[eggsPR]

Though a select few have been discussing this inside an army list thread, I feel it warrants its own thread.

So... VC can now bask in the glory of Mind Razor using Leadership as Strength.

Sure, we always had access to Shadow magic, but with most of our troops having low leadership it wasn't a mainstream strategy a la Dark/High Elves... until now.

The rules changed in that Mind Razor doesn't use the Leadership of the MODEL anymore, but rather it uses the leadership of the UNIT (which is the highest leadership value of the unit). So, for example, if you have a Wight King in a unit of ghouls, and that unit is Mind Razor'ed, you now have S9 ghouls (so long as the WK lives).

I haven't heard any DEFINITIVE on whether or not Inspiring Presence works with Mind Razor...

Perhaps we can dicuss?

I mean this is going really change how ALOT of VC generals play. It makes spearing-holding horded skellies viable, ghouls are now worth their points AND some... and a whole host of other things that probably haven't been considered.

 

[Smogg]

Why would IP not work?

This is a real nice change. Any cheep unit with lots of attacks per point is going to benefit a lot from this. Zombies, Spear-skeletons, ghouls will all beneft greatly.

However this spell is available across many armies, doom and darkness could really help here. So can the vampire powers that lowers leadership within 6".

One thing to keep in mind though. Consider your unit of skeletons with a character for leadership, getting boosted by mindrazor. Now skeletons have I of 2. Don't loose your character before the skeletons gets to strike!

 

[propervillanz]

I'm thinking of Mindrazored Varghiests. A unit of 6 with Vargoyle can now potentially pump out 25 S7 attacks at I4:|. Even 1+ armor save units will be looking at 5s to save and good luck with that and as they say the best defense is a good offense :devil2:.

 

[eggsPR]

If IP does work, then Blender Lords will fade out and instead you'll see bunkers behind trrop blocks using S10 Mindrazors safely.

It'll be like 7th ed. Helm of Commandment builds all over again.

In other words... it sounds awfully boring lol

 

[Niltag]

As far i rememebr they changed it otherway... that modeles uses their own LD value.

Can you show references in FAQ for that? I was looking on it and didnt found it.

 

[eggsPR]

As far i rememebr they changed it otherway... that modeles uses their own LD value.

Can you show references in FAQ for that? I was looking on it and didnt found it.

There's only 1 reference to Mind Razor in the FAQ... On page 4 of the rulebook FAQ 1.6a (which is the most current FAQ, bc it's the only one available at GW website)

Reference Section – The Lore of Shadow, Okkam’s
Mindrazor.
Change “[...]when rolling To Wound with[...]” to
“[...]for[...]”

So, I'll take a stab at how this works now...

Old version (What is ACTUALLY printed in the 8th ed Big Red Book):
Okkam's Mindrazor is an augment spell with a range of xx" and lasts until the start of the caster's next Magic phase. Models in the target unit use their Leadership instead of Strength WHEN ROLLING TO WOUND WITH all close combat attacks whilst the spell remains in effect (any Strength bonuses from weapons are ignored). The Wizard can choose to extend the range of this spell to xx". If he does so, the casting value of Okkam's Mindrazor is increased to xx+.

New version (8th ed Big Red Book wording with ONLY the newest, most recent 1.6a change):
Okkam's Mindrazor is an augment spell with a range of xx" and lasts until the start of the caster's next Magic phase. Models in the target unit use their Leadership instead of Strength FOR all close combat attacks whilst the spell remains in effect (any Strength bonuses from weapons are ignored). The Wizard can choose to extend the range of this spell to xx". If he does so, the casting value of Okkam's Mindrazor is increased to xx+.

So there you have it... that little change turned everything upside down, I guess. But it still says "Models in the target unit". Hasn't that changed? Where's the FAQ? 1.6a is most current? Does regular 1.6 still apply? Is 1.6a an amendment to 1.6? If so, where's 1.6? What the heck am I missing here... I feel lost lol!

 

[Gokamok]

I might just be suffering from stupidity here, but I simply cannot find a rule stating that the models in a unit are allowed to use the Leadership of a character in the unit for any purpose other than Ld tests.

I think it will make this whole debate a lot easier if someone could provide references to the section(s) of the rulebook that makes this an issue?

 

[Niltag]

There is clear stated that MODELS in UNIT use THEIR LD as STR, not highest from unit. Its same as characteristc checks if there is Unit take you use highest in unit if there is Model take you take model value. If there was UNIT use their LD as STR it would be highest in unit, but there us models in unit so they use their own LD

 

[Melle]

ya, I don't see it either that you could now use a characters ld for str.
still models ld used as I see it

 

[Pladvoncarstein]

If IP does work, then Blender Lords will fade out and instead you'll see bunkers behind trrop blocks using S10 Mindrazors safely.

It'll be like 7th ed. Helm of Commandment builds all over again.

In other words... it sounds awfully boring lol

But isnt the blender lord thing boring now as it has be for the last few months. Every tournement i go to if i come up against another count 10 times out of 10 theres always a blender. I stopped taking them when I was winning games to easy. blender lords take no skill or tactics to use. You tell me what can kill a blender lord.

 

[eggsPR]

If IP does work, then Blender Lords will fade out and instead you'll see bunkers behind trrop blocks using S10 Mindrazors safely.

It'll be like 7th ed. Helm of Commandment builds all over again.

In other words... it sounds awfully boring lol

But isnt the blender lord thing boring now as it has be for the last few months. Every tournement i go to if i come up against another count 10 times out of 10 theres always a blender. I stopped taking them when I was winning games to easy. blender lords take no skill or tactics to use. You tell me what can kill a blender lord.

Bloodletters.

Crumble.

Cannons, rocks.

Any flank charge into his bus/unit.

Miscasts.

 

[midean]

Key point in the spell state "Models use their LD as S". Look on the models stat and see what the LD is. It's as simple as that. Your not taking any LD test so forget Using any characters LD that is in the unit, or any IP.

 

[Pladvoncarstein]

Key point in the spell state "Models use their LD as S". Look on the models stat and see what the LD is. It's as simple as that. Your not taking any LD test so forget Using any characters LD that is in the unit, or any IP.

but when a character is in a unit their leadership is his you cant choose to their leadership can you.take armies that break from combat

say they really wanted to break for some reason (bring oponent into range for counter charge). Now this unit has a cheap character but with higher leadership. For the break test they would have to use his leadership they cant choose to use their low leadership because with the character his leadership is theirs.
confusing but it sounded much better in my head.

 

[midean]

That would be taking a lD test. Which you are correct. But we are not taking any form,shape, way of a test. The spell says to the models LD. Not the LD of the unit.

 

[eggsPR]

That would be taking a lD test. Which you are correct. But we are not taking any form,shape, way of a test. The spell says to the models LD. Not the LD of the unit.

You make so much sense, Midean... but something changed in the last couple days (FAQ 1.6a) that now makes Mind Razor affect units (and their models therin) differently (ie unit's leadership).

I think? **Warhammer Twilight Zone**

 

[midean]

Well I have been pouring over 6.a and see nothing in there that would change it. What part are you reffering to?

 

[eggsPR]

Apparently it's this...

Yorga (a credible and frequent poster on this forum) saw others in different forums claim:

GW took the word 'profile' out in the newest errata.

That (not Yorga), in itself, opened this can of worms

 

[Smogg]

In my view it's the result of GW streamlining leadership to always be the highest leadership value within the Unit rather than the individual written values. Mind razor was an exception to this and was often was used as precedence in other leadership discussions, so they took it out to make it all more consistent.

 

[crafty0ne]

I was always under the impression that Inspiring Presence was used ONLY for leadership tests. However, looking through the BRB I can (sadly) find no argument to support that view. You could argue that the wording of the Inspiring Presence rule points toward this view, but it is not definitive in any way. Games Workshop really needs to get its act together on these ambiguous rules .

 

[Johnny-Crass]

Nope IP states that a unit may replace their LD with that of the other model. Nothing about LD tests or anything of the kind. It is why IP works against screams and such. Also the FAQ update is simple and subtle. It is not even in magenta! They just removed a few words already covered above and it changed how the entire spell is played.

 

[Bullhax]

Having read through the 1.6a FAQ, the relevant points in the BRB I am under the same impression that you use the highest Ld (i.e. a characters) ONLY when taking leadership tests (reference, page 10, and 100 in BRB) as stated by Midean... I've seen nowhere that you use the higest Ld at all times can't find this anywhere...

As said by crafty0ne if you look up the inspiring presence rule (page 107 brb) it says: "Providing that the General is not fleeing, all friendly units within 12" use his Leadership istead of their own" which is then errata'ed to "...may use his Leadership..."

Here there is no mention of Leadership test but it says unit uses it's generals leadership. It does not state for what though.. Has this been shut down before by an errata that said it what the Ld on it's profile? Using the word profile is the only thing that could prevent this from being one insane spell..

I would say that using the Ld of a character in the unit is a no go as it clearly states but as of now using the General's Inspiring Presence is legal, at least until they change it back..

EDIT:

Found the old 1.5 errata with some creative google'ing, this is what it said:

Reference Section – The Lore of Shadow, Okkam’s Mindrazor
Change “[...]Models in the target unit use their Leadership instead of Strength when rolling To Wound with[...]” to“[...]Models in the target unit use the Leadership Characteristic written on their profile, instead of their Strength,for[...]

So yeah they just made this spell crazy

Link for 1.5 errata: http://www.scribd.com/doc/99583595/m1920636a-FAQ-Warhammer-Rulebook-V1-5

 

[crafty0ne]

Nope IP states that a unit may replace their LD with that of the other model. Nothing about LD tests or anything of the kind. It is why IP works against screams and such.

True. As Written, this is how it works and it should be played as such. What gets me though, is when you look at the entire phrase, there is a parenthetical statement tacked onto the end that says "(so Rally your General First!) This, at least to me, Implies that the intent of the IP rule was for use during leadership checks for fleeing/rallying units. Whether this is actually true or not is pure speculation based on typically ambiguously worded rules and phrases, and unless its ever clarified in another FAQ(HA!), IP should be used for any Leadership based test/ability such as Mindrazor.

 

[Strahd]

Ok sorry to highjack this thread but this question has brought up one of my own. Wasnt there a part of the old FAQ that dealt with the death magic spell spirit leach and how the unmodified leadership of the model was used. I was playing a game the other day and we were trying to figure out if you used the highest LD in the unit against the spell and when I went to check the FAQ I couldnt find it. Was it removed? If so can you now modify the LD of the target of this spell?

 

[Bullhax]

I think this is what you're looking for:

your unmodified Leadership. What is your unmodified Leadership? (p10)
A: Your unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership characteristic in the unit. So the Leadership from any characters in the unit itself (but not from outside the unit, from Inspiring Presence for example) with a higher Leadership can be used unless specifically stated otherwise.

It's on page 6 in the newest FAQ (1.6a) The last question just before Movement..

You can't modify it by any means but you use the highest Ld in the unit

 

[Yorga]

As far i rememebr they changed it otherway... that modeles uses their own LD value.

Can you show references in FAQ for that? I was looking on it and didnt found it.

There's only 1 reference to Mind Razor in the FAQ... On page 4 of the rulebook FAQ 1.6a (which is the most current FAQ, bc it's the only one available at GW website)

Reference Section – The Lore of Shadow, Okkam’s
Mindrazor.
Change “[...]when rolling To Wound with[...]” to
“[...]for[...]”

So, I'll take a stab at how this works now...

Old version (What is ACTUALLY printed in the 8th ed Big Red Book):
Okkam's Mindrazor is an augment spell with a range of xx" and lasts until the start of the caster's next Magic phase. Models in the target unit use their Leadership instead of Strength WHEN ROLLING TO WOUND WITH all close combat attacks whilst the spell remains in effect (any Strength bonuses from weapons are ignored). The Wizard can choose to extend the range of this spell to xx". If he does so, the casting value of Okkam's Mindrazor is increased to xx+.

New version (8th ed Big Red Book wording with ONLY the newest, most recent 1.6a change):
Okkam's Mindrazor is an augment spell with a range of xx" and lasts until the start of the caster's next Magic phase. Models in the target unit use their Leadership instead of Strength FOR all close combat attacks whilst the spell remains in effect (any Strength bonuses from weapons are ignored). The Wizard can choose to extend the range of this spell to xx". If he does so, the casting value of Okkam's Mindrazor is increased to xx+.

So there you have it... that little change turned everything upside down, I guess. But it still says "Models in the target unit". Hasn't that changed? Where's the FAQ? 1.6a is most current? Does regular 1.6 still apply? Is 1.6a an amendment to 1.6? If so, where's 1.6? What the heck am I missing here... I feel lost lol!

1.5 said you use the leadership on the model's profile. They deleted that word. That is why IP might work now. And if IP is ONLY used for leadership 'testing' then you certainly get the benefit for any character in the unit because of the following from the FAQ in relation to page 10 of the BrB.

A: Your unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership
characteristic in the unit. So the Leadership from any
characters in the unit itself (but not from outside the unit, from
Inspiring Presence for example) with a higher Leadership can
be used unless specifically stated otherwise.

Note that it speaks to your 'leadership value' not leadership testing. Just like a horse uses the leadership of it's rider as it's value.