plague of dwarfs and how to fix it

[kurt von caldus]

something has been plaguing a many a vampire player i know, at the moment with the new 8th ed rules how to get around a dwarf gun line. especially one made of grudge throwers handgunner crossbows and organ guns with the favourable giant wedge of longbeards. well if any one else he has come across this, i have a cunning way to stop them and its worked for me and few of the guys struggling with those pesky short things.

if you have a army built round necromancy these gun lines stop your magic more than enough for the damage they cause to be unrepairable and your army isnt fast enough to get to them with a couple of rounds of shooting, the answer is dont try to repair your lost now that sounds like blasphemy well theres time to use their bodies after. so insted make a zombie screen if you have the models to do so it protects your tougher units from the handguns and crossbow if theyre at ground level which makes the shooting less effective, and then your not spending your time repairing combat units which will just lose the models you brought back or more in the next turn. your zombies will give away 50 vps per unit you make but well it will have to do. and those harder units i spoke about protecting well if your harder unit is 30 grave guard ws 7 asf then you got no problems with the longbeards, another thing is those cairn wraiths make an invaluable edition as most dwarf shooting units lack magic attacks and static res so hitting them with the wraiths should end it rather quickly for you. also a great distracting unit for the grudges to go after so thyre not targetting the main force. is just a thought and a way to prevail in the domination of the old world.

 

[Mikael.K]

How about big units of ghouls and the ghoulkin vampire power? That with vanhels spam could potentially grant you a second turn charge.

 

[kurt von caldus]

gd idea but dwrfs only need one shooting phase to hammer your ghouls and you wont get off that many vanhels sadly m8 cos of their magic defense but worth a try

 

[Mikael.K]

Spamming vanhels with 2 dice (level 4) over and over again will be hard to stop even for dwarfs. They need to use at least 3 dice to stop it reliably. Another option is wraiths, as you already pointed out in your initial post . Zombie screens is another, dont charge them into the dwarfs as they will only die in the following combat phase. Standing in front of their unit of crossbows/thunderers gives them additional modifiers to shooting.

 

[Zeleck]

I will point out first of all that i haven't actually played that many games but i've read the rules alot while i've been painting my armies.

Would a spirit host wall at the front of your army do alot to absorb most of the damage? 65/4 is 16 points per ethereal wound but surely that will go further than equivent skeles or zombies. You also have the winds of undeath spell that would convieniently form right in front of your rank and file vampire for free.

Depending on the points value of the game an ethereal vampire lord with flying and avatar of death (great weapon) would work wonders on dwarven artillery. He could even raise zombies 1" from those ranged troops.

 

[TobinRoss89]

What works for me is my war machine hunting vampire set up and the fact that wraiths are not slowed down by wrath and ruin.

 

[Vampire bk]

you DO know A LOT of the dwarf machines have magic bullets (at least thats what i have heard)

 

[kurt von caldus]

indd they do and all my dwarf list machine do lol mwahahah so i worked out fleshy shield is cheaper.

 

[Forge]

scout vampire lord with wristbands of black gold, ogre blade and flayed hauberk, red fury all that good stuff

 

[Dklyn]

I have a 4k game coming up against stunties so I'm up for suggestions. But...
Couple things I don't understand... why does no one account for true line of sight and why does everyone fear the dwarfen thunderers more than their warmachines? Usually my games with dwarfs involve warmachines blasting units apart and then using thunderers to clean up the remains. Also how are you giving your GG ASF? Even with spells, the best they can do is strike in normal init. (unless you're not using GW in which case consider yourself lucky for ever penetrating their armor X.x)And how are the zombies 50 VPs each? Doesn't that only apply if you used raise dead (which will only give you a few models + IoN, which is what you're trying to avoid in the first place?) I have a difficult time seeing that be successful.
I can't see the scouting lord working well. Remember your scout cannot charge the first turn, guarenteeing him at least one round to openfire. Even with the wristbands, 1/3 will still fail and with many warmachines being multi wound...
Ballistae can snipe it well (unless I'm mistaken, the -1 for being on your own is not in 8th) each doing multiple wounds and the organ guns autohit can shred through a single model. Even a cannon can do the job (in which case only your ward save can spare you) and for 400 points/general, it wouldn't be a bad investment to target all machines on your lord.
What would work a lil better is making him flying instead of scout and then having him charge out of a unit once he's close enough.

 

[Forge]

I have a 4k game coming up against stunties so I'm up for suggestions. But...
Couple things I don't understand... why does no one account for true line of sight and why does everyone fear the dwarfen thunderers more than their warmachines? Usually my games with dwarfs involve warmachines blasting units apart and then using thunderers to clean up the remains. Also how are you giving your GG ASF? Even with spells, the best they can do is strike in normal init. (unless you're not using GW in which case consider yourself lucky for ever penetrating their armor X.x)And how are the zombies 50 VPs each? Doesn't that only apply if you used raise dead (which will only give you a few models + IoN, which is what you're trying to avoid in the first place?) I have a difficult time seeing that be successful.
I can't see the scouting lord working well. Remember your scout cannot charge the first turn, guarenteeing him at least one round to openfire. Even with the wristbands, 1/3 will still fail and with many warmachines being multi wound...
Ballistae can snipe it well (unless I'm mistaken, the -1 for being on your own is not in 8th) each doing multiple wounds and the organ guns autohit can shred through a single model. Even a cannon can do the job (in which case only your ward save can spare you) and for 400 points/general, it wouldn't be a bad investment to target all machines on your lord.
What would work a lil better is making him flying instead of scout and then having him charge out of a unit once he's close enough.

if you park your lord on the flank of one of his units in the first turn, balistas will have -2 to hit, he cant shoot cannon balls at you because to hit him he'd have to place the marker somewhere where the shot will not cross his unit because it is a "template."

I decimate our local dwarf player with a sneaky lord, i just charge his thunders and his warmachines and do work to them while the rest of my untis clean up his blocks of troops.

 

[Dklyn]

Did you try this strat n 8th?
Still not seeing it. Warmachines are everywhere and parking in the flank of one unit will not protect him from the ones on the other side. Also even if you do find that golden spot of -2 to all ballistae, since moving is before shooting phase, he can just march out of the way if that's a problem (dwarfs can march no matter who's close) and thus you now lose your cover and are easy to dispatch Also you have to place the scout 12" away from any unit, meaning he can easily place the cannon marker without risking any of his units. That template rule only applies to placing a marker, not where a marker may wonder into, so he can place it where it might bounce into his own guys.
And of course organ guns are immune to cover and everything.
And once again, you can't charge the first round giving them plenty of time to surround and squash the general.

 

[kurt von caldus]

i am now going to explain asf for gg van hels when in combat and or corpse carts bound spell right thats the asf part sorted. true line of sight causes dwarf players aggro if theres no hill for war machines to sit on. now to another thing right raise undead horde if making zombies follows rules for raise dead spell so 50 pts
zombie units ranging for 5 to 30 lol makes life cheap and easy two casters that can get it off, so why not try both.
yh i have used these tacts in 8th as the other guy does i play dwarfs alot, i also play a few DOC armies WOC amries empire skaven. i rarely get to play the armies that i need to work against playing wood elves and ave only played one game against ogres. wood elfs are a pain.
making magic trees sprout all over the place.

damn forgot one lizards. gah i hate them slaan with all magic in the world making his TG T8 damn them much like dwarfs they have good magic def but also get plus to 4 dispell or more is a pain ohter than wood elves probably the army i least like playing, cos im dwarf player i dont mind them i just heard alot of vamp players i know complaining about em.
if they have a hill well hmm not alot you can do if they take 3 grudges at 3k game just sit back and hope enough of your amry gets there lol and they take out wraiths easily cos they fire magical attacks

 

[kurt von caldus]

hmm no one i have played so far knows this and i didnt know either damn silly Games workshop changing the ASF ASL rules well nvm still strike b4 dwarfs.

 

[Dklyn]

if you have a army built round necromancy these gun lines stop your magic more than enough for the damage they cause to be unrepairable and your army isnt fast enough to get to them with a couple of rounds of shooting, the answer is dont try to repair your lost

This is what's confusing me. It seems you're saying here that you won't get enough spells off to heal your forces. However, your plan involves having several spells go off at once (1 row of zombies will not block LoS so you'll need some successful Neheks). When I play against dwarfs, thanks to a 50 points standard and their anvil of doom, he generally has 3-4 more DD than I have PD. I'm baffled how anyone can have success relying on several spells going off in one magic phase since casting without IF seems virtually impossible.

 

[Johnny B]

When I play against dwarfs, thanks to a 50 points standard and their anvil of doom, he generally has 3-4 more DD than I have PD.

Try a Lord and a Vamp Hero both with MotBA. +4 PD is ace against anyone, even Dwarfs. Chuck in Skull Staff/Periapt/Power Stone and its job done.
Also, what 50pt standard is that? The only Dwarf banner that grants anything for the magic phase is Master Rune of Valaya for 100pts (extra +2 to dispel and auto-dispel remains in play spells in the Dwarf turn)? I'm guessing he has a Runesmith and Runelord, each adding Dispel Dice?

If you face multiple template weapons: don't deploy in a block formation. Deploy in a wide formation with 2 ranks so you minimise the number of hits templates can score in the first 2 turns. Then just quick reform (or use VHD to reform if you're Ghouls) when things get close.

Generally I find the best way is to march a gigantic block of regenerating GG with Banner of the Barrows into their biggest unit. In fact, I find that works against ...well...everyone... Its kinda depressing really. 40 should do the trick. And Staff of Damnation if you want to make him cry...

And yes, Wraiths can get hit by runed war machines. They do pretty much guarantee where his shooting will go though, which is worth its weight in gold, as most good Dwarf players don't take many, if any, magic melee weapons (just not worth the cost).

Or just take a Lore of Death hero and tactically Power Scroll Purple Sun him...

 

[Dklyn]

I realize it's not a standard but a runic talisman, but it steals a PD from you and turns it into a DD. It effectively caps you at 11PD. And of course, you need to have 3 heroes to have all the equipment you suggested (three arcane items). Keep in mind 2 of the 4 PD from motba are cast at +1 (since the thrall has to use his own) Even with 4 extra PD, they still get 4 extra dispel with the standard/anvil with each attempt at +2 at least (4 if particularly brutal). If you roll a 1 with either Winds of Magic dice (1/3 chance) then despite all of your investment you will be down for sure by 1.
And what I mentioned isn't even all of it. Spelleater rune, another rune giving an additional +1 to dispel, and extra heroes will only further the gap.

Now I'm not trying to say you can't win against dwarfs (in fact I have yet to lose to them even while using magic lists). What I am saying is that if you want to reliably beat dwarfs, magic is not the way to go. Exact purple sun which I don't use b/c I think it's cheap personally.
I'm surprised your regen banner has worked as flaming rune is so dirt cheap (5 points) and one hit from it ruins your regen for the entire shooting phase (ow!). I've never taken hoff banner against dwarfs but he still equips a ballistae or cannon with flaming every game just in case I do.

 

[TobinRoss89]

Yeah if there is a dwarf gun line the best thing to do is to move forward asap.

Try this hero setup,I find that he does well against any army that has war machines.

Vampire
Wristbands of Black Gold
Dragon Helm
Potion of foolhardiness
Dread Knight
Infinite Hatred
Hell steed

This guy will get to those pesky war machines and take good care of them.

 

[Johnny B]

And of course, you need to have 3 heroes to have all the equipment you suggested (three arcane items).

Well I wasn't suggesting you take all of them. 2 of the 3 would be nice though.

I'm surprised your regen banner has worked as flaming rune is so dirt cheap (5 points) and one hit from it ruins your regen for the entire shooting phase (ow!). I've never taken hoff banner against dwarfs but he still equips a ballistae or cannon with flaming every game just in case I do.

Its not the fact they regen, its the fact they fight in 3 ranks and hit on 2s (Barrows and Helm). The Regen just means they take little to no damage in melee. Yeah, they will have flaming machines, but they still won't wipe out 40 GG. I play Dwarfs too, it just doesn't go like that

Even with 4 extra PD, they still get 4 extra dispel with the standard/anvil with each attempt at +2 at least (4 if particularly brutal). If you roll a 1 with either Winds of Magic dice (1/3 chance) then despite all of your investment you will be down for sure by 1.

Very few people take the +4 to dispel banner though, as it means the BSB is basically unprotected, not to mention its massively expensive and simply overkill. The Anvil isn't really worth it in 8th imo either.

And what I mentioned isn't even all of it. Spelleater rune, another rune giving an additional +1 to dispel, and extra heroes will only further the gap.

Yeah and this is a lot of points in characters and runes which aren't worth it in most games. As long as you're not facing someone who has tailored their list to fight VCs, you'll be fine. If he has tailored it, that's the equivalent of taking a Purple Sun Thrall Bomb imo, so anything goes

 

[Dklyn]

Anytime I'm up against dwarfs there is an anvil of doom with a runelord sporting the steal PD for DD (which gives him a 4 extra DD) as a minimum. I can't really comment on whether he anvil is "usually" worth it in 8th or not, but suffice to say I hate fighting against it X.x. Sometimes they have more antimagic and sometimes they don't and maybe my opponent is tayloring a bit. My point is anvil+PD stealing is sufficient to counteract most magic bits we have, and if they taylor to even more anti-magic, it just gets worse.
And Tobin, I like that thrall setup. Not to expensive, very strong and yet fairly survivable. The hellsteed also gets stomp if i remember right which can be really great if you're attacks were unlucky.

 

[TobinRoss89]

Yeah that one thrall has saved my butt so many times vs dwarfs and empire.

 

[Gladius Rex]

I didnt read every response here, so it may have been said, but when confronted with Dwarves or high magic type armies (HE and whatnot), I have found that a BSB carrying the Blood Keep Banner works wonders for getting a cruicial unit into combat and then helping it win. I prefer a WK to cheapen the cost over a vamp thrall, but thats just me.

If you got points floating around you can try the same thing with the drakenhof, but Dwarf cannons get a nifty flamming cannonball that just makes me cry when I cant use the regen from a 125 point banner, so for roughly half the cost, you can protect a unit pretty well with the Blood keep BsB.

Another semi effective way to mess with dwaf Gunline that I did to a friend one time, was to make a couple vampire thrall scouts. I know... it seems odd. but here is what I did.

gave one the bracers 3+ ward vs shooting/magic. gave the other the armour -1 to be shot. Both are obviously skirmishers. so -2 to hit one and the other protected by a ward of 3+. I gave one of them Ghoulkin to move up my ghoul units. When you got ghouls advancing early in your face and two vampires looking to hit you from the rear, it causes some panic in a Dwarf gunline. No lie. Do they turn to shoot the vamps? If so, can they possibly kill them and get turned around before the ghouls reach them? Also its good with the scouts to raise a small unit of Zombies to really put on the pressure. its just about the only time I advocate Zombies.

Just other "outside the box" ways to really screw with the bearded ones.

 

[Dklyn]

If you're running a deathstar unit, then blood keep banner is a worthwhile investment (against dwarfs it's much better than hoff imo).
Scout ideas are interesting, but still expensive (~300-400 points) as hell for something two organ guns can easily take care of (-2 to hit won't help ya there ). Also I'm not sure if lone models count as skirmish anymore (can't find anwhere that says lone models get a -1 to shooting at them like in 7th, let me know where it says that as I've been looking for it). Zombies against warmachines are fun and something I've often wanted to do to lock them up. As far as destroying the warmachine goes, keep in mind that only 6models can attack so they aren't likely to kill anything.
I'd prefer the flyer vamp with avatar of death that stays in a unit (benefiting from Lo,S!) and then charges out of it against a warmachine when close enough.

 

[Ghurt]

Lone characters dont count as skirmishers when alone. Thats an old rule. Just saying.

 

[Gladius Rex]

ah buggery! hadnt noticed the subtle change to the lone character thing. Good thing when I played those Dwarves it was still 7th ed at the time, but i figure even in 8th ed that the same concepts still apply.

also, if a warmachine like those organ guns wishes to fire at a single Vamp thrall, instead of at my large blocks of advancing ghouls and grave gaurd... more power to em I say.

They could more easily take out 4-5 ghouls (roughly 40 points), or risk having no damage due to that nifty 3+ ward save from the bracers. Regardless, the point is to cause the Dwarf player some chaos and panic and make him make decisions he doesnt want to really make. You get a player worried about what those scouts might do (even if nothing at all) and you are one step ahead of him.