Does anyone really, actually think we will still be able to do this post faq? (if we ever get one) I mean . . . Really? One spell and boom! Up to 250 points of models back on the board.
Question about multiple Blood Knight raising.
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Hanblack Nagash
Vargheist
Could be the only way to attempt to justify their retail price! I do think it will be an 'ogre faq' scenario.
"oops we didnt intend that but what the heck."
"oops we didnt intend that but what the heck."
RAW it is 1+Lvl and I will beat anyone who says otherwise to death with a tube sock filled with metal blood knights
I will first say that I have been running a 1500 pt Bloodknight w VL list lately at my LGC, so I thoroughly enjoy raising 2 BK per casting from my VL. It's been great! Truthfully I'm really only raising 1 usually.
I just don't think it would be as OP as everyone seems to think. I.E... I believe the only build that would benenfit from this is a huge BK bus, which would be a huge investment, with a lvl 4 VL riding along adding to their investment. They are Rares also which limits their numbers in games below 2500. With Lore of vamps as it is and the range of IoN, don't you think we're entitled to a chuck it and $!*&!! it spell to get those 5 BK back from 18" away if we want to?
Let's not forget about hexwraiths either!
I just don't think it would be as OP as everyone seems to think. I.E... I believe the only build that would benenfit from this is a huge BK bus, which would be a huge investment, with a lvl 4 VL riding along adding to their investment. They are Rares also which limits their numbers in games below 2500. With Lore of vamps as it is and the range of IoN, don't you think we're entitled to a chuck it and $!*&!! it spell to get those 5 BK back from 18" away if we want to?
Let's not forget about hexwraiths either!
I thought you could only raise 1 because they are vampires. I'm I missing something? Thanks in advance for clarifying
IoN says each model can only regain one wound. Funny story, each Blood Knight only has one wound. So they raise 1+caster level per casting of IoN.
I don't see this as being OP. Blood Knights are a tricky thing, but I feel like they're too fragile for their cost. Anyway, I don't think this will change.
I'm far more worried about our ability to scream into CC.
I don't see this as being OP. Blood Knights are a tricky thing, but I feel like they're too fragile for their cost. Anyway, I don't think this will change.
I'm far more worried about our ability to scream into CC.
Ooohhhhh - I get it!
Sorry I'm new to VC and didn't have a clue what you were talking about when I read this post this morning!
ION says "models with the vampiric, ethereal, or large target special rules never regain more then 1 wound per successful casting". "models" not "units" so even though they are vampiric BK's regain 1 plus caster level? But varghests, varghulfs and characters only regain 1 wound.
Right, I have to admit I'd read it the same as countwuzzy, so glad this post got me questioning things! And I didn't get bludgeoned by Johnnys BK tube sock!!!
And Hexwraiths get 1 plus caster level too. Awesome!
Sorry I'm new to VC and didn't have a clue what you were talking about when I read this post this morning!
ION says "models with the vampiric, ethereal, or large target special rules never regain more then 1 wound per successful casting". "models" not "units" so even though they are vampiric BK's regain 1 plus caster level? But varghests, varghulfs and characters only regain 1 wound.
Right, I have to admit I'd read it the same as countwuzzy, so glad this post got me questioning things! And I didn't get bludgeoned by Johnnys BK tube sock!!!
And Hexwraiths get 1 plus caster level too. Awesome!
bigbadbat said:
Bigbadbat, whatcha got in that list? I got a 1500pt tourny coming up and I'm surprised you could fit Blood Knights in to those pts.
@MVC - without derailing thread topic check post here https://www.vampirecounts.net/Thread-Need-help-with-a-1500pt-league-list
I really think it was a cock up- there is no way that the intention was to allow 1+lvl for blood knights and hex wraiths, but whether they'll correct it for the FAQ or go all wimpy and go 'Oops, okay then you can have 1+lvl' I can't say.
Also Big-Bad, if you have a big knight bus then you can always mount a necromancer and send him along for the ride
Also Big-Bad, if you have a big knight bus then you can always mount a necromancer and send him along for the ride
As I said before if they do not fix it in the FAQ I am going be buying a good number more hexwraiths:lol:
I'm with Chaos_Born on this one. Wholeheartedly...
Re-raising 5 Blood Knights (together with a possible host of other models on the side, or even possibly 5 more Blood Knights in a second unit if the game is large enough) is in my opinion, far beyond what was intended.
I'd even go so far as to say, that by ever using/abusing this rule/oversight, you'd permanently forfeit any reason to ever utter the word "cheesy" again, or complain when anyone you play against bends the rules to breaking point.
I sure hope GW fixes this soon.
Re-raising 5 Blood Knights (together with a possible host of other models on the side, or even possibly 5 more Blood Knights in a second unit if the game is large enough) is in my opinion, far beyond what was intended.
I'd even go so far as to say, that by ever using/abusing this rule/oversight, you'd permanently forfeit any reason to ever utter the word "cheesy" again, or complain when anyone you play against bends the rules to breaking point.
I sure hope GW fixes this soon.
It is not cheese though. Bloodknights are stupidly overpriced for what they do, so there must be some benefit for running them right?
Slaan are cheese
HPA's being able to charge from off the table is cheese
Raising 1+Lvl of bloods is not cheese
Slaan are cheese
HPA's being able to charge from off the table is cheese
Raising 1+Lvl of bloods is not cheese
Johnny: No offense, but in this case, I'd rather listen to the arguments from the other side of the table. 
It is terribly easy to argue on behalf of one's own army book after all. I am a VC player, but to the possibility of raising 5 Blood Knights on a casting roll of a measly 6+ would make me weep tears of joy if I was that kind of a player...
A tough, heavily armoured, ass-kicking unit that can basically kill anything in the game in a few rounds, that is unbreakable, very hard/near impossible to win a close combat against, that can have a missile protection banner, which can be re-raised on a measly 6+ casting roll IF the enemy manages to make a den't in their ranks in the first place, is pretty much the definition of cheesy in my book, although your examples were good as well.
Overcoming this is not impossible, just not very probable on an equal points basis, and the situation just gets dramatically worse for the non-vc player the larger the battle gets.
Not to mention, in the fluff, Vampires are NOT raised like your average undead to begin with (Booo GW!), which makes it undermine the vampire lore to boot.
It is terribly easy to argue on behalf of one's own army book after all. I am a VC player, but to the possibility of raising 5 Blood Knights on a casting roll of a measly 6+ would make me weep tears of joy if I was that kind of a player...
A tough, heavily armoured, ass-kicking unit that can basically kill anything in the game in a few rounds, that is unbreakable, very hard/near impossible to win a close combat against, that can have a missile protection banner, which can be re-raised on a measly 6+ casting roll IF the enemy manages to make a den't in their ranks in the first place, is pretty much the definition of cheesy in my book, although your examples were good as well.
Overcoming this is not impossible, just not very probable on an equal points basis, and the situation just gets dramatically worse for the non-vc player the larger the battle gets.
Not to mention, in the fluff, Vampires are NOT raised like your average undead to begin with (Booo GW!), which makes it undermine the vampire lore to boot.
They are WS5 T4 1 Wound 2+ armorsave no backup-save models. Every army I have ever played with would see them as easy points. Anything worth taking in a Beastmen army would eat Bloods for about the same points, same with Orcs/Warriors/Elves/Dwarves/Ogres. Hell even Halberdiers could cut a unit of bloods down to size. They are they most fragile unit in the game for their points. Very far from Cheese. They need to be raised 1+Lvl to be useable at all. Otherwise why not just take Blackknights as trust me two Black Knights will outshine 1 Blood any day of the week.
I'm not claiming they are the best unit ever Johnyy, just that the combination with the incredibly easy re-raise is much too good, especially once ou star getting units of 8+ models, or include a Lord/hero in the unit.
Some armies always have stuff that can take them on, such as Empire Gratcannons to pick the obvious choice, but as long as you only need one to be able to raise them again on a roll of 6+, I think things an spiral out of control very quickly. I've used Black Knights so far in 8.ed pretty successfully, and I can't imagine the Blood Knights with wizard backing doing any worse vs most opponents. Bloodknights are also quite fast, and with a General and/or BSB nearby, they can pretty much select their targets, frenzy or not. Far from every unit being able to take them on at an equal point basis can do that (most being footsloggers I imagine, chaos knights the possible exception, depending on who gets the charge off).
That said however, I personally think that the Blood Knights are one of the units that could benefit from a second long hard look at them by GW, from several standpoints.
I remember them being usable before Vampires were even re-raisable, even though the game was quite different for cavalry at the time of their release.
Still, the option of re-raising numerous Vampires in such a fashion is by nature a terrible idea to begin with in my book, along with making them able to go "poof" in the night just because their "freinds" get pulled off their horses.. I really hope for a more fluffy 9.ed book in the future.
Some armies always have stuff that can take them on, such as Empire Gratcannons to pick the obvious choice, but as long as you only need one to be able to raise them again on a roll of 6+, I think things an spiral out of control very quickly. I've used Black Knights so far in 8.ed pretty successfully, and I can't imagine the Blood Knights with wizard backing doing any worse vs most opponents. Bloodknights are also quite fast, and with a General and/or BSB nearby, they can pretty much select their targets, frenzy or not. Far from every unit being able to take them on at an equal point basis can do that (most being footsloggers I imagine, chaos knights the possible exception, depending on who gets the charge off).
That said however, I personally think that the Blood Knights are one of the units that could benefit from a second long hard look at them by GW, from several standpoints.
I remember them being usable before Vampires were even re-raisable, even though the game was quite different for cavalry at the time of their release.
Still, the option of re-raising numerous Vampires in such a fashion is by nature a terrible idea to begin with in my book, along with making them able to go "poof" in the night just because their "freinds" get pulled off their horses.. I really hope for a more fluffy 9.ed book in the future.
I tend to agree with Uziel
Raising 5 blood knights as well as maybe ten zombies, a fell bat and 5 skeletons on a 6+ spell is overpowered.
Raising one Blood Knight is pretty good for a signature spell.
True blood Knights don't have the most amazing defence but they do have the best attacking power for almost any unit I'd say. 3 S7 attacks each :O.
So I hope they FAQ this to be more sensible as at the moment I think RAW will allow you to raise 1+level.
Raising 5 blood knights as well as maybe ten zombies, a fell bat and 5 skeletons on a 6+ spell is overpowered.
Raising one Blood Knight is pretty good for a signature spell.
True blood Knights don't have the most amazing defence but they do have the best attacking power for almost any unit I'd say. 3 S7 attacks each :O.
So I hope they FAQ this to be more sensible as at the moment I think RAW will allow you to raise 1+level.
Overlooked point here regardless of casting value is opponents ability to dispel. If faq'd everyone will know the deal. I hardly think you'll be throwing 2 PD at IoN to raise BK,, it forces you to throw more dice, and PD generation is not one of our strengths. As I said in my first post, it's not as OP as people think. We play this way at my lgc, with 4 regular vc players, it has yet to be an issue and definitely something everyone plans for.
BBB: Well, yes. There is always the chance to dispel, but it does't change the fact that if successful, you probably get more out of this 6+ spell than any other casting at any remotely similar value in the game.
Also, the fact that everyone is paranoid enough that they always have to plan for this eventuality when facing a VC army sort of tells a tale on its own... Just being afraid to use your dispel dice/dispel scroll, on account of this being a possibility at the end of the magic phase, can seriously hamper one's magical defense all on its own, letting spells go through that otherwise one never would have. That's worth a lot of points on its own right there, just out of fear of something possibly happening...
Also, the fact that everyone is paranoid enough that they always have to plan for this eventuality when facing a VC army sort of tells a tale on its own... Just being afraid to use your dispel dice/dispel scroll, on account of this being a possibility at the end of the magic phase, can seriously hamper one's magical defense all on its own, letting spells go through that otherwise one never would have. That's worth a lot of points on its own right there, just out of fear of something possibly happening...
I tend to agree with BBB in this point. It just means people will adjust their play style vs Vamps. When Ogres got their Green Fist FAQ what happened? In sites just like this we opened discussions for ways to deal with the issue. After it was FAQed I didn't see many people playing this build to often. I had always thought it was the "secrets out". Part of the game is thinking up strong tactics to throw your opponent off balance mid-battle which is one reason why I love this game. I see no difference in putting a hero Vamp on a coven throne with a General running beside the thing containing a +1 ld banner. One thing about this new book is that it seems like there is no "supreme build", at least not yet. I see people running this, but I don't think it will be abused.
Really, I know what people will do if we field a huge deathstar of Bloodknights. Redirectors! They will be touched, fondled, and raped by these units pushing this frenzied unit left and right off the board. It would be horrible if your General was in there too, because of the lose of the movement bubble for your army.
Low casting values are quite nice, but not OP. Look at Lore of Heavens. I think it's main strength is it's low casting value. Comet is cast on a 12! But still this Lore can be dealt with. I think Lore of Vamps is a pretty crap lore. 12" buffs, little offensive capabilities, raise dead is... well raise dead. It's an ok lore, but not a great one. Not to mention that we are FORCED to take it on our General. Which is the only one that can take something other than Death magic.
Really, I know what people will do if we field a huge deathstar of Bloodknights. Redirectors! They will be touched, fondled, and raped by these units pushing this frenzied unit left and right off the board. It would be horrible if your General was in there too, because of the lose of the movement bubble for your army.
Low casting values are quite nice, but not OP. Look at Lore of Heavens. I think it's main strength is it's low casting value. Comet is cast on a 12! But still this Lore can be dealt with. I think Lore of Vamps is a pretty crap lore. 12" buffs, little offensive capabilities, raise dead is... well raise dead. It's an ok lore, but not a great one. Not to mention that we are FORCED to take it on our General. Which is the only one that can take something other than Death magic.
Weibz: If you are expecting ot face a VC army, then yes, I agree, there are things you can do when designing your own are that can help mitigate this somewhat. However, this becomes far less of an option if you are going blind into a tournament. Just pointing out that we have to keep both alternatives in mind here.
Johnny: When I said Blood Knights were tough, I meant on account of their T4 combined with a 2+ save, which I think is pretty decent overall, but I totally agree that they are not that tough when their cost is considered (certainly not at the top tier). They do have one hell of a unique damage output though, combined with not being that easy to take out. That said, I did a lot of changes on them for my Bloodline Legacies project, just because I think it is one of those units in the game which really needs a second look.
Btw, from what I see here on the site, you seem to be lucky enough to get a whole lot of actual gaming experience (which is admittedly something that has been lacking a bit here for the last few years), and if you have the time and inclination, I could use some feedback on the project from someone with lots of gaming experience in 8.ed. That goes for anyone else in the same situation, willing to take a look as well.
Johnny: When I said Blood Knights were tough, I meant on account of their T4 combined with a 2+ save, which I think is pretty decent overall, but I totally agree that they are not that tough when their cost is considered (certainly not at the top tier). They do have one hell of a unique damage output though, combined with not being that easy to take out. That said, I did a lot of changes on them for my Bloodline Legacies project, just because I think it is one of those units in the game which really needs a second look.
Btw, from what I see here on the site, you seem to be lucky enough to get a whole lot of actual gaming experience (which is admittedly something that has been lacking a bit here for the last few years), and if you have the time and inclination, I could use some feedback on the project from someone with lots of gaming experience in 8.ed. That goes for anyone else in the same situation, willing to take a look as well.
About this units/models problem in ION text, you are saying that etheral unit of hexwraiths are healed 1+lvl? if you are making diference betwen unit and a model then mortis engine will also be healed 1+lvl (which i disagree) because in our book from page 90 to 95 these are all units... unit and model in Ion text is same thing... plase forgive me if this doesnt make any sense just read unit section from page 84 to 95 these are all units beside lords and heroes... every etheral unit/model every large target unit/model every vampiric unit/model i think is healed only one wound... or u can read "forming units" on page 5 and see that everything in warhanmer is considered a model, models then form units, so i think that everyone that is healing vampiric/etheral/large target unit/model is cheating
just read unit section from page 84 to 95 these are all units beside lords and heroes... every etheral unit/model every large target unit/model every vampiric unit/model i think is healed only one wound... or u can read "forming units" on page 5 and see that everything in warhanmer is considered a model, models then form units, so i think that everyone that is healing vampiric/etheral/large target unit/model is cheating
ME is a chariot. It is also a multi wound model. It is also a large target. It does not have the ethereal special rule. Same goes for Black Coach, not large target, though, but Vampiric.
The rule says MODELS with vampiric, or ethereal, large target, etc...rule can only regain 1 wound per casting.
ME would only regain 1 wound per casting as it is a lone model.
Each BK or HW is a model, only regaining 1 wound per casting, at 1+caster level.
It's definitely not cheating.
Don't let anyone else tell you otherwise, or they are cheating you.
The rule says MODELS with vampiric, or ethereal, large target, etc...rule can only regain 1 wound per casting.
ME would only regain 1 wound per casting as it is a lone model.
Each BK or HW is a model, only regaining 1 wound per casting, at 1+caster level.
It's definitely not cheating.
Don't let anyone else tell you otherwise, or they are cheating you.
If you heal unit of 5 hexwraiths models 1+lvl how do you heal unit formed of 5 vampire character models, 1+ lvl?