Rather restrictive I'm afraid! 2400

[Ilnar]

Ok, slightly restrictive tourney list here,

I dislike all the VC troop choice models. But I REALLY wanted to do a VC army, so I decided I would do the whole army using my LOTR models which never seem to get used anymore!

Now, this leaves a restricted model pool,

I use army of the dead as skellies,
Barrow wights as vampires.
The ring wraiths as carnwraiths
Mogul knights as black knights,
The fell east as a terror giest,
Ect,
Unfortunately, it means I can't use some things, varghiests, being the big one, since I don't really want to buy 4 terror of arnor,
I know it's over. It needs some fat trimmed off
Saying that,
Thoughts?

 

[Ilnar]

RE: Rather restrictive I'm afraid!

Not too drastic?
Basically, ditch everything except the terror?
If you look, you'll see the target points are listed in the summery at the bottom! (a nice feature of the army list btw)
Right, some reasoning,

I could run one big unit of 74 skellies, or two smaller units of 35/40,
But, they are there for the raising, if I get invocation off on the Necromancer, I'm getting 3d6+12, rerolling the d6's that's what? 27? For a casting value of 12!
I know I won't get it off all the time, or even most of the time but they aren't there to kill things, they are there to distract people. And to hold, And I need the banners for blood and glory.
On that note, why is Master of the dead useless? Yes, skellies are crap but it means I can use raise dead and then boost the new unit, or take minimum core and then boost it mid game.
And do we need an unkillable combat general? Or just for our general to not die? Do you really think that if I need to use a 4+ ward save on a T4 3W model with no combat abilities AT ALL will help? Unless I get sniped by a cannonball I really can't see it helping?

I took the spirit hosts in 2's so they can actually do something! A unit of two can do more than just tie up msu of gunners, I think 7 chaff units is ok

The units of seven wolves and doom are just to get the min core, that and my dooms looks COOL

You don't rate the corpse cart? If not, why not? Always strikes first is not to be mocked, especially if the opponent fails fear test, or in combination with van hels of hellish vigour, neither is the rerolling for invocation,

Why do the BN need MULTIPLE characters?
I was playing with the idea of throwing the beast master vamp in there, but in the end I decided they weren't really needed, it's not a death star, it's for clearing/flank charges. 13 S8 killing blow 2+ save with ethereal movement? Very nice!

Why the hate for cairn wraiths units? They go through units like they aren't there!
14 ethereal wounds at T3 M6 terror isn't easy to get rid of, unless you're a daemon player, they kill cavalry like they aren't there(except chaos knights) and SHREDS heavy infantry, it's a small unit, easy to hide behind spirit hosts or wolves. I could be persuaded to split the unit in two, and add another banshee.

I like the bats, fast decent hitting unit and cloud of horror is a nice bonus if you get a flank charge, but they will probably be dropped to get me to 2400.

I'm a big fan of discussing lists, but that was spectacularly unhelpful!

 

[Vampire Ron]

RE: Rather restrictive I'm afraid!

Even two spirit hosts is not going to take out gunners quickly. Assuming WS3 T3 AS 6+, you'll get around 4 hits, 2 wounds and then they get a go at an AS roll. Spirit hosts are really poor at killing things, I can honestly say I've never dealt even one wound with them, so groups of one to hold things up is how we use them.

The problem with corpse carts is how slow they are. They move 4 inches a turn and can't march so they get left behind pretty quickly. Also, ASF is pretty meh on many of our units (skellies, zombies, GW grave guard) and the chances of your corpse cart being up with your knights to be useful are unlikely.

When an opponent realizes how many models you get back per IoN, that's gonna be top of the dispel list, and units of 25 skellies aren't all that useful, which is why you'll want to start with bigger. 25 are gonna be dead in one turn with crumbling, and that's free VPs.

Cairn Wraith units get absolutely annihilated by the most basic of magic missiles, so most people use them in units where they can't be individually targeted.

T2 bats drop like flies.

I wouldn't say that Master of the Dead is too bad, it's just that there are often more attractive magic opportunities than boosting your skelly units.

You need protection on your general for death sniping etc, as a single death spell through would be expected to kill your general, and then you're down to level 1 casters.

Four units of six dire wolves would generally be better, and doom wolves are a lot of points for very little.

I have no idea where you got S8 Black Knights from, they're strength six. Also, 13 attacks isn't too many as they're WS3, so many would be expected to miss.

I hope this helps to explain why so many changes were suggested for your list.

 

[Ilnar]

RE: Rather restrictive I'm afraid!

See, I have to argue with bit of that, but hmmmm,
I may be wrong, but, if I charge with two spirit hosts, and then get two kills, and that's assuming they pass their fear test, I win by 2/3, that's not terrible odds for a break test.
Problem with only taking one is, I think, fighting against 3 ranks banner is practically auto death for one, even charging a small unit can be dicey if they have a rank and a banner, whereas, a unit of 2 can realistically hold, and eventually win as long as there's a caster nearby to replenish, no? I've had great success throwing them at chaos warriors with no lord, or heroless cavalry. Or those silly units of clan rats, basically, anything without magic attacks!

I have to agree with the corpse cart, I hadn't noticed the chariot unit type, I think I could have lived with M6, but not being able to start it behind the skellies line is a bit of a killer(I may have been cheating unintentionally) thanks ! S good! Points saved,

Once ION is at the top of the dispell list, other things are allowed to slip through, if they dispell ion, I can cast something else without worrying about those DD, no real loss, if they don't dispell it, I get more skellies, no loss really,
I only need a couple of castings to go through to get (on average) 43 skellies a unit! I mean, still crap. But will sit there and die for a fair while.
Unless they end up against khorn chaos warriors its going to take a while to kill them all, giving me the chance to get the knights or cairns in the side, or rear or just to hold till the end.
Shrugs, given that I'm not taking ghouls, is it so terrible to have the possibility to increase them, or To raise a new unit if I need to? For 20 points? Asides form the 4++ which I might just give him, what else would you give him?
Point taken about 25 skellies tho, 30 better?


Yes, cairn wraiths die to magic missiles, but really? How many BASIC magic missiles is it going to take? 21 hits? That's a lot of d6 worth of magic missiles, and obviously, protecting them is quite important should they be targeted by something larger!
they should also be moving between 12 and 20 inches a turn too remember, so return fire from missiles should be manageable, especially given the massive amounts of flak I can get, I've used smaller units in games and only lost them when ION was dispelled after the banshee died, (stupid chaos lords) combat magic scares me far more than ranged magic,

Yes, bats die fast, but they have 5 wounds, and are decently fast, and if people are shooting at them, they aren't shooting at anything else! But yes, probably not going to be coming.

The meter necro is CHEAP! That was the attraction.
A vampire lord is not, and I'm feeling the squeeze already,
A single death spell would only need a little luck to kill him even with the 4+ and they tend to be short ranged anyway, hmmm, it's a good point tho , ok, so better protection for the necro is defo a good consideration.

I see your point on the wolves, it's just they are rather weak for a vanguard unit and i dont have a speedy vamp to catch up with them, if they need a boost in the first turn or so, hmmm, I'll give it a go tonight,

Sorry, yes S6 on the BK they are WS3 tho is it worth adding the screaming, or barrows banner? I was aiming to have the -1ld vampires around them if at all possible, but I realise it won't always be possible. I admit, the barrows banner looked better, since everything nowadays seems to be immune to fear.....

going to edit the list in the 1st post, so feel free to keep it coming

 

[Vampire Ron]

I understand what you mean about the 2 spirit hosts being used to kill stuff, but the best use for them (in my opinion) is to hold up monsters and other horrible big things. Against Lizardmen I had them tie up a unit of three barbed razordons and a stegadon, which was very effective. Two are still most likely going to lose combat, seeing as they have no armour save modifier, so anything with a 4+ or better is stopping them from doing pretty much any damage. You could use them in groups of two if you wanted, but if you're totally sure you're going to win combat with two anyway, you could always charge the front with one, then move up to the flank/ rear and charge there next turn, for added combat resolution.

I agree about the skellies, just most people on this site seem to ignore master of the dead.

Remember Cairn Wraiths only have two wounds each. 14 wounds for over 350 points. A gimmick some people use instead of Cairn Wraith units is the whole skellies + 5 Cairn Wraiths deal. What you do is buy 5 Wraith characters, put them all in the skeleton unit, then when you hit combat make way with them so your whole front rank is ethereal, therefore unless they have magical attacks, they can do no wounds. This also has the bonus of giving you the skeleton's static combat resolution to add to the wounds that the Wraiths do. If you want to use Wraiths so much, I'd suggest this as it removes the massive magic missile problem.

I've used a naked MN as a general before and it's paid off, but death magic is never used in my meta, so it depends on your foes really.

Wolves are just chaff, so deploy them in dart formation (one rank of three, one rank of two - if you have five), and just irritate people with them.

Black Knights are mainly just used as a bus for vamp characters, as the unit has too few attacks to really be effective. Just play with them and see how they fair in your battles.

Good luck!

 

[kevin.hopkins7]

My apologies, maybe a little drastic. Lol. I was going to go back and make things clearer and etc..won't let me edit though. Thanks Ron for stepping in. Sorry if that was unclear and/ or unhelpful.

 

[kevin.hopkins7]

And..accidentally deleted the post in attempting to edit..cursed iPhone. That's ok though, your list changes are good

 

[Ilnar]

That's ok, feel free to go again.

 

[Exavia]

The Ethereal Bus - 20 Zombies/Skellies (no command) with 5 Ethereal Characters in the front rank is amazing. 2+ Look out Sir!, protection from Magic Missiles/Direct Damage Spells and rank Bonus when in combat.

I took this unit 4 Cairn Wraith 1 Banshee 20 Zombie (395pts) unit to a 2000pt Tournament a couple of months back. Unit never died and managed to chop and hack its way through everything it touched.

Against Empire he charged with Demigryphs unit, got smashed to pieces and i chased them down, following turn i charged his Sorcerer Lords Great Swords unit and wiped them out.

OK - Mournfang died and were run down after he flank charged me and i proceeded to make way with my characters to prevent him from doing any damage.....MWAHAHAHAAHA. I ran them down and in the following turns wiped out his generals units. General didnt have a magic weapon....rofl!

Chaos Warriors - 24 Chaos Warriors with Flaming Banner died in 3 rounds of combat as well as the Hellcannon. No Knights/Jugger Riders in this list.

Dark Elf shooting army. Hydra - tick, Spearmen unit - tick, Sorcerer lord - tick.

 

[Tawg]

The Ethereal Bus - 20 Zombies/Skellies (no command) with 5 Ethereal Characters in the front rank is amazing. 2+ Look out Sir!, protection from Magic Missiles/Direct Damage Spells and rank Bonus when in combat.

I took this unit 4 Cairn Wraith 1 Banshee 20 Zombie (395pts) unit to a 2000pt Tournament a couple of months back. Unit never died and managed to chop and hack its way through everything it touched.

Against Empire he charged with Demigryphs unit, got smashed to pieces and i chased them down, following turn i charged his Sorcerer Lords Great Swords unit and wiped them out.

OK - Mournfang died and were run down after he flank charged me and i proceeded to make way with my characters to prevent him from doing any damage.....MWAHAHAHAAHA. I ran them down and in the following turns wiped out his generals units. General didnt have a magic weapon....rofl!

Chaos Warriors - 24 Chaos Warriors with Flaming Banner died in 3 rounds of combat as well as the Hellcannon. No Knights/Jugger Riders in this list.

Dark Elf shooting army. Hydra - tick, Spearmen unit - tick, Sorcerer lord - tick.

I should add that, in addition to being effective against anything without magic attacks, most players also consider this quite the "Cheese." If you take anything near to this to play with friends, you will be kicked in the nuts.

Also a lot of tournaments limit "Look out sir!" rolls to 2x per unit, to not allow people to have units like this, or other such "Death Star" tactics.

 

[Exavia]

I should add that, in addition to being effective against anything without magic attacks, most players also consider this quite the "Cheese." If you take anything near to this to play with friends, you will be kicked in the nuts.

Also a lot of tournaments limit "Look out sir!" rolls to 2x per unit, to not allow people to have units like this, or other such "Death Star" tactics.

No Tournament i play in limit Look out Sir rolls to 2 characters. As this is quite a big change to the core rulebook and therefore "why the hell would you participate in a tournament preventing player tactics?"

Ive played it with friends and they have never had an issue with it.

Ill take the moral high ground and say this... If the book allows it, why cant i do it? I cant be held responsible or to blame for imbalance in game mechanics, thats GW's responsibility...and anybody whos got a problem with it they should probably complain to them.

 

[Ilnar]

That seems like a horribly cheesy tactic.

The smaller units of hounds were ok tho, 2 died outright, but the other two were ok.

The lack of corpse cart was irritating, especially since I had a huge magical advantage and got van hels and hellish vig off nearly every turn they were in combat,
But it wasn't such a huge loss, slightly fewer skellies but not the end of the world,
I think I'm not going to take it, I'd rather have some bats to flank, so at least I'm not striking last all the time,

 

[Ilnar]

Woo! Carnwraiths are effig amazing! Banshee is good, especially in combo with leadership games from shadow and or vamps. And she can accept challenges from characters with magic weapons, good against chaos,
Played warriors and ogers and Ohh wow,
Chosen, all dead, 2 units of warriors, dead, knits with lances, REALLY dead, good game,

Ogers, do not like wraiths, the fire belly was not able to kill them fast enough, it went very well, killed both of the big tusks things, the iron blaster and a unit of whatever the great weapon ones are,

Skellies suck, really effing badly, but units of 40 are not terrible, they sit there and die very nicely. And are great against things with a high strength, since it's wasted,

I wish I could move the level one vamp to the black knights, more because he ends up just drawing combats sitting with the skellies rather than kicking ass. but I don't have time, and I don't have the model, meh, later,

I miss my corpse cart, ASF makes such a difference, even for skellies and it does really boost summoning power,

 

[Exavia]

Umm im surprised that anyone playing chaos didnt take ensorcelled weapons on Knights....its sorta the point - Lances Suck Balls!. So im going to say that your Chaos opponent sucks balls and doesnt know how to play Chaos at all. A Chosen unit 1) should of probably had a character in it with a magic weapon to deal with the ethereals. 2) not engage the ethereals to start with.

Demon Prince would have seen the Cairn Wraith unit placed on the board, then proceeded to position directly across from it. 1 round of combat and Cairn Wraiths would have been eaten up.

Umm Banshees are particularly terrible in Close Combat especially against characters with Magic Weapons (even a goblin hero is better than a Banshee). WS3 T3 W2 no save I3. Anything with a couple of attacks and magical will delete Banshee. The scream works at Initiative value....so being at I3 means its striking way later than anything Chaos can manage.

Cant speak to the OK player. As i smash all the OK players in my meta with every army i take (VC, Chaos, DE). So its either OK players suck balls or the army is just that shit.

 

[Ilnar]

Lances aren't terrible, and you tell the 3x GT chaos winner that he can't play, but he might laugh at you.... How often do you see ethereal units? Really?
And no, he didn't want to be in combat with them, he was rather unlucky and they do move quite fast.And I got off a lovely charge.
The chosen did have a hero, but he had to challenge and the banshee was quite happy to accept.
And no, I have far more chaff than him, and was able to tie the DP up with skellies and put the TG and the wraiths where I wanted them
Also? One round of combat?
No, probably not
The banshee ideally fights a challenge with the character with the magic weapon, if possible, so said character cannot kill the WRAITHS, which proceed to kill things, like, say chosen. The fact that the banshee cannot fight and always dies is beside the point, she did her damage in the shooting phase.
Seriously,
admittedly, it only works perfectly against Chaos, but meh.
She got raised back the turn after

I find your dismissive and better than everyone attitude irritating.

 

[Ilnar]

Right, day one over, played three games, won two drew one,

First was against dwarves, battle for the pass, nice bits of impassible terrain made for an interesting game, he wasnt set up to face ethereals, the cairn wraiths went straight through the BSB's unit, and had fun ruining cannon and hand gunner units, the magical grapeshot was painfully effective, but didn't kill them all and they grew back fairly speedy,
The spirit hosts did well too, charging handgunner units and tying them up
The lords unit was a tough nut, but he was out deployed and didn't get in till turn 5, he made a mess but couldn't break the black knights in one turn,
The terrorghiest took a cannon ball to the head turn two, 6 wounds, didn't get to do anything,
Skellies were awsome, he got so frustrated with them being raised turn after turn, they tied up the organ gun and a fair bit of the shooting.

2nd was against chaos warriors,
Again, the cairn wraith were great, hit a unit of warriors and broke them utterly, but then overran 12" into a unit of knights I had charged in the flank with my black knights. It went badly.
Lost almost all of them before the knights could rescue them, but they survived to threaten other units later on, my fault, but it was unlucky,
The spirit hosts were amazing,
One unit into 40 khornate mauraders. Held for 7rounds of combat, essentially took them out of the game, which was perfect.
The other into the chosen, held until one of the skelly units and vampire came and flanked them,
Lost the terrorghiest turn one to an infernal gateway, massive risk on his part since he would have had a Bad time of it if it hadn't died, but it did, once again having achieved nothing,
Skellies did well, one unit charged 4chaos ogers, killed them all, then flanked the chosen and ran them down, then took out the hero on jugger,
The other killed the shaggoth, LOVE beguile, and killed the wizard lord on disk with a lucky charge
The hound champs made their points back several times, challenging unit chams and the character spawn.
Closer than it should have been, but a good game,

Third was against DE, I lost, it went badly, wow they have a powerfull magic phase,
He was out deployed, so the ethereals were safe, killing 1 crossbow unit and 2 repeaters, one chariot one hydra and a unit of 5 light cav between them, one spirit host did eventually die fighting the massive unit of crossbows, but that end of the table went well,

The other end died painfully, I couldn't make a charge, dispell any of his spells or casts any of mine, couldnt roll over a three in combat,
Magic decimated the skelly units, charge by his chariot and the olds unit of spearman broke my knights, chariot and hydra cleaned up, it was painful.
But that's the game,
The terrorghiest didn't die, but he wasn't amazing, the banshees scream did more


Hats off to the ethereals, even against some serious opposition they did really well, can't recommend them enough,
The terrorghiest hasn't really done much, I have to admit, I'm not really impressed, but I can see what he should be able to do, its the lack of marching that makes it poor, IMHO,
glittering scale and beguile should be mandatory on hero VCs it's amazing, He stood up to things he should not have repeatedly
Master of the dead has been awsome, if you're taking skellies there really is no downside to taking it, especially on a level 4



it was a good day! Bring on tomorrow!

 

[Hanblack Nagash]

Sounds to me like your tg had bad luck if a banshee did more damage with her howl than its deathshriek.

 

[Hanblack Nagash]

Also i was wondering why you didnt take a banner on the zombies with your wraiths in?

 

[Ilnar]

The terrorghiest had terrible luck, rolled 3 for the shriek twice,,,
I'm assuming you ment skellies, they nearly got a banner but I didn't want to cut any more of the wraits or knights, I might cut some chaff out of the vampires and give one of them a magic banner

 

[Exavia]

Well far be it from me to believe some dude on some random forum with a subpar (ill use subpar in place of shithole) list beating someone of such prestigious account as to winning some GT somewhere with Chaos Mortals, as per this little address. Id also go as far as to say that WOC since 8th ed came out have been sort of mediocre, not really the odds on favourite, new book not included.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?start=&articleCatId=&aId=14700053&categoryId=&catId=&pIndex=&communityArticleCatId=&section=&singlePageMode=true

But lets go with it shall we.

In most lists people who take a DP will take fly giving him 20" move and a fair bit of flexibility of what he engages. You do understand that for the last 25 years ive been playing this game for trying to engage any flying creature of my own volition (or of my opponents wish for his flying creature to be engaged) with footslogging infantry...let alone fucking skeletons is particularly difficult or near impossible.

But hey im going with it and believing that you managed to possess a 3xGT winning Chaos players DP to engage a unit of skellies tying up a 500pt character with a 100pt unit of garbage. (knowing that Vanhels has changed and cannot be used to engage in combat anymore...)

moving right along.

How often do i see ethereals...i dont know - a fair bit. Everytime i know there are VC players around its nearly a given that there are going to be Ethereals around - they sort of go hand in hand. Im the kind of person that likes to tick all of my boxes, such as being able to deal with nuisances like Ethereal models, Regenerating models, flying characters, High armour, fear causing, etc etc. Any 3xGT winning General can tell you this. Most of the time all it takes is a 5pt or 10pt investment to just have that kind of surety. Ensorcelled Weapons is good in every phase, charging or being charged and absolutely rock solid in overall numbers. Charges fail and getting out maneuvered is common, so having something in your box of tricks to deal with bad luck should be at the forefront of your mind. BTW when the ability for shock troops to break everything on the charge like cavalry went out the window with 7th and so did lances.

But hey what do i know...youre beating RockStar Warhammer Generals. But it couldnt hurt to do they math right? Yep cool...knew youd agree.

Let say your 6 Cairn Wraiths and 1 banshee engaged a what say 20man unit of Chosen (probably nurgle as thats sort of the favourite at the moment) roughly with a Hero (possibly a BSB) with a magic weapon - its pretty much how i run them but at 24 strong.

We will say that you have all 7 models engaged in the front rank of the the Chaos Chosen.

6 Cairn Wraith with 3 attacks each = 18 attacks.

WS3 vs WS6 with a -1 to hit penalty = 5+

Roughly equates to 6 hits. Now you need 3+ to wound. Roughly works out to be 4 wounds. The chaos warriors for me are usually geared with halberds so they would have a 6+ AS to these wounds. Odds are there should be at least 1 Armour save made.

So youve successfully killed 3 Chaos Chosen.

How i have always geared my BSB is generally with a Sword of Swiftslaying. With a natural S5 he can chop lots up. 3+ to hit the Banshee with reroll then 2+ to wound. Generally speaking 2-3 wounds should be highly likely. For the sake of argument im going to say 3 wounds effectively drawing the wounds to being dead even.

Now the fun part, 2-3 ranks + standard + bsb. Equals at least another 2 Cairn wraiths dead from Combat res.

So now youve lost 3 out 7 models and the Chaos player has lost 3 out of 20-24. Next combat phase the Hero is going to start chopping up the rest of the unit.

The numbers dont lie...the Cairn Wraiths are in trouble. Another phase and they will be popped. Also any player is not going to charge mostly mundane units into Ethereal units, so effectively YOU the VC player is charging. So after you lose your Banshee hero...there will be no option available to you to raise said Banshee in the following phase (as that will belong to the Chaos Player) to try in vein to protect your Cairn Wraith unit.

Im glad you find my dismissive nature irritating. Im a skeptic. In regards to my "better than everyone attitude", it usually comes out when people are talking shit and i attempt to be insightful by playing Devils Advocate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil's_advocate

If DP was in place of the Cairn Wraiths. DP gets the charge (+1 to combat res), 5+ base attacks at 3+ to hit 2+ to wound (possibly rerolls) +D6 thunderstomp. On average the DP should pump about 6-7 wounds on the Cairn Wraith unit. In response, youd need 6+ to hit (nurgle DP or course) the DP and 4+ to wound. Chances are youd lose the Cairn Wraiths from the massive ass kicking you just got and they would pop.

 

[Ilnar]

Im going to let you go back, actually read my post (not even all of it, just the bit about the chaos) and apologise...
For not getting any of that right. At all
Go and read who attacked what,
Go on, I'll wait. To be insightful, you also have to be right.
Those number are quite correct, but thankfully, they are COMPLETLY irrelevant.

For the record, only the jugger hero, the lord and the knights had magical attacks,
And again, for the record. They were almost entirely khornate,
There was no BSB's in the unit, or, surprise surprise, I wouldn't have charged it,

Today's results will be in later, although I might not bother,

 

[Exavia]

Woo! Carnwraiths are effig amazing! Banshee is good, especially in combo with leadership games from shadow and or vamps. And she can accept challenges from characters with magic weapons, good against chaos,
Played warriors and ogers and Ohh wow,
Chosen, all dead, 2 units of warriors, dead, knits with lances, REALLY dead, good game,

2nd was against chaos warriors, 
Again, the cairn wraith were great, hit a unit of warriors and broke them utterly, but then overran 12" into a unit of knights I had charged in the flank with my black knights. It went badly.
Lost almost all of them before the knights could rescue them, but they survived to threaten other units later on, my fault, but it was unlucky,
The spirit hosts were amazing,
One unit into 40 khornate mauraders. Held for 7rounds of combat, essentially took them out of the game, which was perfect.
The other into the chosen, held until one of the skelly units and vampire came and flanked them, 
Lost the terrorghiest turn one to an infernal gateway, massive risk on his part since he would have had a Bad time of it if it hadn't died, but it did, once again having achieved nothing, 
Skellies did well, one unit charged 4chaos ogers, killed them all, then flanked the chosen and ran them down, then took out the hero on jugger,
The other killed the shaggoth, LOVE beguile, and killed the wizard lord on disk with a lucky charge 
The hound champs made their points back several times, challenging unit chams and the character spawn.
Closer than it should have been, but a good game,

I think two different games.

In regards to second game, Lore of Tzeentch (pretty terrible), Mark of Khorne without a BSB (pretty shit), Juggernauting character without a unit to hide in (dumb)- says a lot about your opponent not having a clue.

Skellies charging ogres and killing them all then flanking the Chosen and running them down....Skellies, just Skellies....riiiiiggggghhhtt!

BTW you use way to many comma's.

If he was using Khorne on his Ogres and he made them to be blender Ogres (extra hand weapons) 4 Ogres are putting out 20 attacks (21 if hes taken a champion) and 4 auto hit stomps. You strike at the same time.

we will say he got a Champion so 21 attacks at 3+ to hit = 14 hits at 3+ to wound = 9.3 wounds.
lets say your unit has a width of 5 models (ill say you had 35 models after a couple of raises) you dish out 16 attacks (im assuming spears) 4+ to hit = 8 hits with 5+ to wound = 2.6 wounds. With him probably saving at least 1 or those wounds. so youve done 1-2 wounds. He stomps you 4 times woundng 2.6.

1st Round Summary (when you charged VC Phase)
Ogres do 12 wounds
VC do 2 wounds + 3 ranks + standard.

VC lose an additional 6 models for a total of 18 models from 35.

2nd round Summary (Chaos players Phase)
Ogres do 11 wounds (lost an ogre before the 4th stomp)
VC do 2 wounds + 2 ranks + standard.

VC lose an additional 6 models for a total of 18 models when only 17 were left. GG

Skellies beating the Shaggoth is just as unlikely. Shaggoth has 6 attacks (ext hand weapon) 3+ to hit 2+ to wound + D6 Autohit Thunderstomps at 2+ to wound. Dead average rolls say the Dragon Ogre would be grinding the skellies into mush - but it would take time. One highish roll (5-6) on Thunderstomp swings the advantage very strongly into the Shaggoths favour whereas a roll of a 1 makes it likely that he either wins by 1 or loses combat by 1.

All the skellies have on the Shaggoth is 3 ranks and a standard. they need 5+ to hit and 6+ to wound with a maximum of only 13 attacks = 0.25 wounds per turn (this includes the Armour save of 4+ from the shaggoth). All the Shaggoth has to do is do 5 wounds every turn to win combat.

Who runs 40 marauders anymore???????

 

[Ilnar]

Lore of tzentch isn't terrible, the disk makes it a nice, stupidly tough magic missile slinger, who can fly, and can deal with chaff units on his own. if it is a little random in regards to Strength., jugger character was in the knights, but split off early game to splatter chaff, (no hounds or horsemen) it worked fairly well actually, he racked up 3 wolf units, one of the spirit hosts and would have broken the black knights and claimed their banner if we had had another turn

Lack of BSB didn't bother him at all, only failed one frenzy he didn't want, (meh) and it would have been unlikely to help in the combats, except the ogers, and I would rather he had held.

Throw in the vampire with the glittering scale armor and hellish vigour into the unit of skellies, beguile on the unit champion, (he died first, but never mind) he made all 4 attacks, and 4 wounds, giving me 9 combat res, I think the skellies did one wound, so 10 total, much better than he managed.I'm sorry I didn't make it clear where the vampires were going, but it would have been a much smaller leap than several you've made!

 

[Hanblack Nagash]

No disrespect but its getting abit childish with some of the comments.

Its a game that involves dice. So math hammer is pointless and makes even skeles capable of beating the hardest units.

Leave it at that or just go and meet up in the playground after school.

But back on topic....

Cairn wraiths rule in units when used correctly.

Lol

 

[The Sun King]

Please mind your attitudes and tone when you debate on this forum.