RIP WHFB 2015

[najo]

Its not the GW bashing , its that 9th discussions keep going off track into the absolute negative speculation by a vocal minority. I personally am not one of the people bothered by this, but I do understand why some of our members are turned off and am just asking for some of the regulars to be aware of this. I raise the issue because its been a problem for a while now, and like you point out, this is a 325 message thread of speculating the death of Warhammer Fantasy with essentially the most negative speculations possible.

But its not this thread specifically. Its that whenever 9th is coming up elsewhere, these comments pop up and take the 9th discussions down this road. I had a thread I started trying to discuss 9th in a positive light and its buried and this one is at the top daily.

Anyrate, our forum is a happy vampire family and some of those family members are uncomfortable right now. Don't censor yourselves, just get some perspective on how extreme some of the negative comments have gotten and let's give 9th a chance to surprise us maybe.

 

[Adam_Barrow]

Like I said on page 1, the thread title was kinda joking histrionics. But that was (dreaded) 13 pages ago. Time makes fools of us all, it seems. Please pardon my gallows humor.

 

[Yorga]

I just want to state that none of our major tournaments in California are embracing End of Times. The most they are doing is allowing some of the new units. Units like Morghasts and Blightkings. But they are NOT allowing the new army lists. A lot of people may be excited by the fluff in the new volumes but it is not translating to meta changes here. This gives me some hope that if 9th Edition becomes a whole new creature of a game, our old hobby my survive for awhile in the form we are accustomed to.

 

[El Syf]

Never has the advent of a new edition stirred the pot so much.
In fact I don't remember anyone really caring too much before a new edition came out until 9th.
The general negativity is getting a bit much when we know nothing about what 9th will entail for certain.
Also I think we (vampire counts) will be okay whatever happens as according to a couple of people VC is the #1 selling army for fantasy. So chin up vamps

 

[Archamedius]

Never has the advent of a new edition stirred the pot so much.
In fact I don't remember anyone really caring too much before a new edition came out until 9th.
The general negativity is getting a bit much when we know nothing about what 9th will entail for certain.
Also I think we (vampire counts) will be okay whatever happens as according to a couple of people VC is the #1 selling army for fantasy. So chin up vamps

Actually I agree with this, and furthermore, I think rumormongers such as Harry and others like him are only doing a disservice to the warhammer internet community as a whole. Nearly everything coming from them is being interpreted poorly and leading to the horrendously negative reception 9th edition is building up for itself. Heck at this point unless the edition is like the holy mecca I wouldn't be surprised if it is received poorly regardless of the content, with so many people convinced it will be the downfall of the game.

 

[Sception]

I think it's unfair to shoot the messenger. Blowing up the warhammer world, replacing all current factions with a much smaller set of much less diverse factions, shifting to a limited release model by default, if these rumors are true then negative reactions were inevitable, and more to the point won't matter, because if the rumors are true then the existing fantasy community has already been written off by gw, else they wouldn't be doing all this. And if the rumors aren't true, then those negative feelings will be forgotten overnight anyway.

And if gw really wanted to get a different narrative out there, well they've got plenty of means to do so. If they don't care about the content of the rumors going around or whatever sentiment they may be building, I don't see why any of their customers or supporters should care for them.

 

[Archamedius]

I think it's unfair to shoot the messenger. Blowing up the warhammer world, replacing all current factions with a much smaller set of much less diverse factions, shifting to a limited release model by default, if these rumors are true then negative reactions were inevitable, and more to the point won't matter, because if the rumors are true then the existing fantasy community has already been written off by gw, else they wouldn't be doing all this. And if the rumors aren't true, then those negative feelings will be forgotten overnight anyway.

And if gw really wanted to get a different narrative out there, well they've got plenty of means to do so. If they don't care about the content of the rumors going around or whatever sentiment they may be building, I don't see why any of their customers or supporters should care for them.

Perhaps, but there is a point at which a good person just says to himself/herself "Am I really doing anyone a service by doing this?" They have to see that all they are doing is stirring up a lot of controversy and negative attitudes. How is that helping anyone?

 

[Zephyr]

These rumors is why I have been very inactive, on the Fantasy front at least. I'm just riding it out and waiting to see what happens with my own eyes. I did sell off my Skaven and High Elves but will hold on to my Vampire Counts and dark Elves, even if 9th edition turns out to be a whole other game.

I came to Fantasy because I loved the fluff. I could deal with all the changes until ET:Khaine. That was actually when I decided to no longer support Fantasy as it stands now. Who knows what 9th edition might bring?
I'm just waiting...

 

[Sception]

Again, Archamedius, if GW doesn't care I don't see why you should. Plenty of people want to hear the rumors, else they wouldn't get views, and want to discuss them, else they wouldn't get comments. Those are the people the rumor mongers think they're helping. Plenty of people have changed their purchasing decisions in the lead up to 9th edition, and thus presumably have benefited from these rumors by saving money they might otherwise have spent on products thinking they would get years of use out of them, when the truth is they may not even get months. Those people, again, are presumably happy to have been warned, even if the warning eventually turns out to have been false.

And it's not like people can't take a look at the rumors, make their own judgment, and then decide to proceed to be involved with WHF anyway. I mean, I have. I'm admittedly one of the most negative people about these rumors, but I've still been actively building up my undead legion collection. Just bought Arkhan last weekend (was going to magnetize for all three, but then decided I wanted to collect or convert all nine mortarchs eventually regardless, so I just built my favorite with this box and I'll buy & build the rest later), I'm working on deals in the trade forum to pick up some chariots even though I'm completely convinced that they won't even exist in 9e, etc.

People want information, and I think they're generally responsible enough to look at a rumor and judge it on its own merits AS a rumor. People can read the rumors, judge their merits, and then make slightly better informed decisions on where to spend their very limited discretionary funds in what is frankly still a very bad economy for a lot of folks. If you have that much faith in people then there's really no way for the actions of Harry or the like to be judged as bad. Not unless you think they're deliberately spreading misinformation.

And it's not like the rumors are the sole source of this ill will. A lot of people haven't much liked what they've read in the rumors, but I didn't personally see that much actual disgruntlement over it until End Times: Khaine was released, with its drastic fluff changes, characters acting out of character, random killing off of beloved characters - and not just killing them, but doing so in a casual, off-hand manner that seemed to disrespect any fans invested in them (Malus Darkblade and Orion in particular come to mind), and game rules that seem to be not just untested, but not even copy edited or given a second look between rough draft and publication.

I loved the End Times up to that point myself, but ET:K was so unpolished, so half-hearted, so completely lacking in model support, the game rules presented so actively unfun to use (subjective opinion I know, but one hardly limited to myself), that my own enthusiasm for Fantasy that Nagash and Glotkin had built up was significantly undermined. I mean, you can complain about the rumor mongering and people freaking out over 9th, but even so, I'd argue that it was ET:K more than anything else that prompted the current malaise, or at least that took the trepidation over the 9e rumors and consolidated them into something much more real and negative.

Read Zephyr's comment, expressing exactly the negative feelings you're blaming on the rumor mongers, and yeah, they say the 9e rumors have caused them to step back, but what do they say was the straw that broke the camels back? The thing that pushed them from worrying about 9e rumors to actively pulling back from the game? ET:K. And that's a sentiment I've seen a lot.

So yeah, I really do think it's unfair to shoot the messenger on this one. Especially with the writing already on the wall.

 

[najo]

I think it's unfair to shoot the messenger. Blowing up the warhammer world, replacing all current factions with a much smaller set of much less diverse factions, shifting to a limited release model by default, if these rumors are true then negative reactions were inevitable, and more to the point won't matter, because if the rumors are true then the existing fantasy community has already been written off by gw, else they wouldn't be doing all this. And if the rumors aren't true, then those negative feelings will be forgotten overnight anyway.

So, the blowing up the Warhammer World is true. We are witnessing it. Everything else you've stated isn't true yet. Its all negative speculation of rumors. We haven't seen the results of End Times yet.

And if gw really wanted to get a different narrative out there, well they've got plenty of means to do so. If they don't care about the content of the rumors going around or whatever sentiment they may be building, I don't see why any of their customers or supporters should care for them.

Instead of saying "GW doesn't care about anything or anyone, they could change the narrative" What about the possibility that if they do comment in one way or another, it would just fuel the narrative and potentially spoil any surprises.

Three things I know for sure about GW is a) they want to be on top of this business and b) they always improve upon their products c) they like to surprise us with their new releases.

Pissing off and alienating Fantasy's current customer base is not part of the equation. So far, all of the releases for End Times models have been considered amazing to the majority of fantasy players. End Times: Khaine hits a snag because 1) they didn't release any new models for the elves 2) the eternity king is a bit much 3) end times magic is terrible.

Up till that point, End Times was exciting and Thanquol got it back on track though we were hoping for a merged list. Instead we got some interesting formations.

Any rate, GW cares more than you think. The Executives and Share Holders want our money and to remain a successful business. The Designers are passionate about the world and game and want to create cool stuff. The Players are dedicated to the oldest and best of the fantasy wargames and want it to grow and thrive. Give them a chance to make those elements come together man. The rumors are just small bread crumbs that may not even be current. Even Harry and Hastings both have spoken about some of the rumors not being up to date.

 

[Sception]

Again, gw has the means to put out other narratives. They haven't bothered, so they don't feel the rumors or reaction to them are bad enough to bother, so you shouldn't either. If the rumors aren't true the negative feelings now won't matter, they'll be forgotten overnight. And if the rumors are true, then the negative reaction was inevitable, there simply is no way to cancel all future support for the majority of your existing factions without alienating the majority of your player base. It doesn't matter how much better the game is, and recent blunders like ET:K and dreadfleet have me far less convinced of the infalibility of their design team than you. After all, most of the individual designers of those steadily improving editions of fantasy are no longer with them.

So if the rumors aren't true, it will blow over anyway, and if the rumors are true thrn the anger would happen anyway (and potentially be worse for the lack of warning - hell, these 'rumors' may be deliberate leaks to give people time to get over it by the time the shoe drops), and in the mean time people who might otherwise have wasted money on soon to be dead factions are benefiting directly from the heads up that they should wait and see how this pans out first. So yeah, blaming Harry for people reacting in ways you don't like seems totally unfair, especially when the bulk of that animosity didn't hit until ET:K, which you also had problems with, so that part isn't on the rumors at all.

If 9e fails, it will be because of gw's decisions, not these rumors. Not necesarily on the weakness of the game - as I discussed earlier, I thought nWoD snd D&D4e were both steps forward from their prior incarnations in design terms, but both failed due to their inability to attact more new customers than the drastic changes involved drove away. Like it or not, players care about setting and lore, identify with particular characters, and most of all get invested in their chosen factions. With or without these rumors, the writing is already on the wall for tomb kings, for dwarves, for brettonians, for lizardmen, for elves as distinct branches, and soon to be for ogres as well. If you think the uproar among people invested in those factions would be any less without Harry, well, I disagree.

 

[najo]

Here are things I know for a fact, from my connections to and experience with GW:

• GW sees most of the negativity online as a vocal minority. The issue with the internet, is real issues get lost within crying wolf. GW doesn't give those doomsayers any energy as it is counter-productive.
• GW is a huge company that isn't as savvy with their online outreach as some of the newer, smaller companies are. This is something that they are trying to fix, but its difficult to turn a freighter on a dime. They are more aware of the real issues than people give them credit for (recent 40k releases are proof of that), and I think we are going to be surprised at the final results of Fantasy.
• GW is not wanting to squat any army. They want to sell us miniatures. They just want to solve why they are not selling. There are fantasy SKUs that have not turned over for over 4 years! Key units in certain armies that they never sell. What will happen with the fantasy armies is 8th books will work in 9th, new factions will emerge or replace some of the old ones. Then if there is demand for an old faction to come back, they will bring it back and fully support it. It may have new models that are less generic looking (which is good) but they will bring back and support what there is demand for.
• 9th is going to be more fluid and still support the style of play we prefer. They are broadening WFB's market, not shrinking it.

I agree with you that D&D 4e and NWoD were correct strategies and moved those game systems forward. 4e's main flaw is it focused on the game engine and the DM first, making those run very easily, but at the expense of the player making a character that felt, well, like a character and not a game piece. NWoD's format, mechanical changes and general approach to overall was spot on, but they stripped away everything that made their world what it was (ironically through an End Times campaign).

GW may be fully aware of those missteps and trying not to make the same mistakes. We need to give them the benefit of the doubt. We have not been shown the whole vision yet. We are still in act two my friend. That's the point when Luke gets his hand cut off and Han gets frozen in carbonite, ya'know There is a story unfolding and that involves drama.

You know, what is ironic about this, GW is shaking things up in reaction to the market. This is directly connected to vote with my dollar tactics. Fantasy was stagnant and sales have dropped. Partly because of 3rd parties making generic models, partly because of recasters and partly because of 2nd hand armies. Yes, there is the whole debate of pricing, but bottom line, financially things weren't working for GW. You can't expect them to lose money on a game just to keep parts of its market content with off-brand miniatures and purposely trying to find ways to not buy miniatures from them. In a way, End Times is a direct result of those forces in the marketplace. Then, on the other hand, many of Warhammer's fans have complained about story not moving forward and the ever-looming threat of Archeon and the endtimes. Well, here it is! You can't have story without change occurring. Nations are going to fall! People are going to die!

Any rate, GW is actually showing some balls in what they are doing. They are risking their game, its resources, reputation and fanbase to breath new life into it. They are investing in fantasy to bring in back up on par with 40k instead of just putting it out to pasture. Sure we all have invested in our armies, both time and money. But its no where the investment GW has. Likewise, when a property like Warhammer is handled by a large company like this (i.e. Star Wars, Marvel etc) there are usually control documents and style guides that maintain consistency between products over the years. GW works with those tools too. Just because old designers we like are gone, doesn't mean new ones we like won't take their place. Besides, old school GW made game design mistakes too. There are some specific ones in my mind right now that I witnessed, and they were bigger botches than End Times: Khaine.

Anyrate, just breath man, let them get out End Times: Archeon and then 9th edition and we can assess where we are at. In the meantime, play the hell out of 8th edition and enjoy it.

 

[Sception]

I am breathing. What are you doing? Who are you even arguing with? All I'm saying is with changes this big, people were going to be upset regardless, so blaming harry for people being upset is foolish. What about that do you disagree with?

 

[najo]

I think my intent and some of my message may be misunderstood. I am not speaking down to you or arguing. Your posts seem intense and emotionally upset and I trying to help resolve some of that. Harry putting out rumors isn't the issue, its those rumors being taken and turned into the most negative assumption possible. You keep replying and repeating how much GW hates their customers and wants to ruin this game we all love. That's pretty extreme sounding to me. You seem angry and upset, hence my asking you to breath. If you aren't I apologize for my misunderstanding.

 

[Yorga]

I am breathing. What are you doing? Who are you even arguing with? All I'm saying is with changes this big, people were going to be upset regardless, so blaming Harry for people being upset is foolish. What about that do you disagree with?

Here, I respectfully disagree with you Mal. We should blame Harry. Harry is obviously a high placed GW employee or the significant other of such. His/her rumors are too accurate from what I have observed and heard. He/she should be ashamed of themselves for the leaks that they perpetrate because they DO affect people's contribution to the hobby in the form of dollars spent. I have only bought one clam pack since Harry's release of the 9th edition rumors. My wife could kiss Harry. I would easily soak a couple hundred a month into GW products. But not now. Words can harm. I am sure that GW management would fire Harry in a heartbeat if they could ever conclusively determine his/her identity.

 

[Infernal Skull]

they DO affect people's contribution to the hobby in the form of dollars spent. I have only bought one clam pack since Harry's release of the 9th edition rumors. My wife could kiss Harry. I would easily soak a couple hundred a month into GW products. But not now. Words can harm. I am sure that GW management would fire Harry in a heartbeat if they could ever conclusively determine his/her identity.

This, 100%. Uncertainty of an upcoming edition change definitely slows people's purchases because they don't know how/ if things will work in the next edition. That's why GW pretty much never announces new editions until they are ready to drop. If I'm not mistaken, all the 9th Edition talk is rumor only; GW hasn't said anything about a 9th Edition WFB. All they've said officially is that "the End Times are here and WFB will never be the same again."

(I could be wrong, as I don't read White Dwarf, but I don't think GW has said anything in print yet.)

 

[Sception]

Wow, that, um, that's kind of selfish, guys. 'My experience of the hobby was ever so slightly inconvenienced by my friends spending less money on about-to-be-discontinued factions, gee I sure wish nobody had warned them about that, so that they could have spent a bunch of money that they would absolutely have regretted six months down the line, if they're choosing not to spend it now based on these rumors.' Yup. That's a moral high ground position, right there. Good job.

 

[Infernal Skull]

No, my hobby is "ever so slightly inconvenienced" because my friends don't paint their models fast enough, not because they don't buy them fast enough. :devil2:

But the discussion in this thread is what the future of Fantasy will be, and it's all based on rumors. Whether or not those rumors prove to be true, they definitely are damaging.

If the rumors are false, then it was a lot of fear-mongering over nothing and, in addition to hurting GW's sales, it hurts game store sales and disrupts gaming communities. And all at a time when some of the coolest stuff is happening in the Warhammer World.

If the rumors prove to be true, then sure, I guess people who's only value of a model is how much Official™ table-time they can get out of it would definitely appreciate being warned off from "wasting" their money. (But it's not like they and their friends couldn't continue to play the current version of Warhammer for the rest of their lives if they enjoy it. As far as I know, GW doesn't come around and collect the older army books when there are updates.)

By your logic, no one should ever support a Kickstarter for a new miniatures game or buy models for a new game because the odds of it taking off in their community (and staying popular after a year or two) are pretty slim.

Even if their gaming group loves the new game and they all get into it, it still might not be popular enough overall for the small, start-up company to remain solvent and continue producing product. And then that game they really enjoy (and can totally continue to keep playing in its current state) is just a waste of money and a huge regret?

 

[Sception]

The players who feel they could or would continue playing a discontinued faction or an outdated edition of the game aren't the ones who have stopped buying models based on these rumors. The people who just want the models or just want to finish collecting their armies have looked at the rumors, judged them, and continued to purchase things. I'm purchasing more models because there are models I want that I don't think I'll be able to buy six months from now.

People who don't enjoy this hobby purely for the models? Who can't use 3rd party models in other games, and who do need to get in a reliable supply of actual gaming in order to make model purchases worth their money and time? Those people shouldn't pump money into kick starters for new minis games if they don't think they'll be able to find opponents for it down the line. Why would you ever think they should?

Rumors are rumors. People know that. Just because they're making different decisions based on them then you doesn't mean their decisions are irrational from their positions.

Besides, the biggest negativity is coming over the destruction of the world and dropping of factions, and with the way End Times has been going, nobody needed Harry to tell them that. Whatever this is, it's a pretty huge change of direction, and that doesn't come without this kind of negativity.

 

[najo]

Wow, that, um, that's kind of selfish, guys. 'My experience of the hobby was ever so slightly inconvenienced by my friends spending less money on about-to-be-discontinued factions, gee I sure wish nobody had warned them about that, so that they could have spent a bunch of money that they would absolutely have regretted six months down the line, if they're choosing not to spend it now based on these rumors.' Yup. That's a moral high ground position, right there. Good job.

Malisteen, your tone is out of line.
Both @Yorga and @Infernal Skull are just sharing the effects Harry's rumors are having on them and their friends and their preferences. Then you rudely criticize them for it.

Ironically, the posts you make complaining about GW and End Times only fuels the unease they and their friends have towards 9th. The thing you are indirectly criticizing them for, you have a hand in causing.

At this point I'm giving you a warning. Keep things civil and respectful please.

 

[najo]

As for Harry, if Harry is an employee, he is likely under contracts to not disclose this information. He gives only bits and pieces of upcoming changes and the result is people's imaginations running wild. I enjoy rumors and take them with a grain of salt. But Harry (and Hastings) is responsible for releasing partial information that GW doesn't want revealed yet, thus causing us to not have the whole picture.

 

[Sception]

I apologize for my tone.

Just seems like there's a lot of shade here and elsewhere being thrown at people who are not fundamentally responsible for the negativity going around, from you accusing me of saying GW "hates" their customers or are "trying to ruin the game", neither of which I've ever said, to Skull and Yorga angry at complainers in general for making completely sensible decisions to back off and wait to see how things pan out, or blaming Harry and Hastings for people choosing to do so, when the writing for many factions is on the wall rumors or no from the End Times book, and at least from my subjective experience most of the anger didn't show up until Khaine came out and it just wasn't very good. And I don't remember any of these calls for Harry or Hastings to be rooted out and fired when we liked the rumors they were feeding us, so either my memory is bad or... you know what, my memory is bad these days, so I'll just leave it at that.

And sure, these times are some of the 'most exciting times' in warhammer... for us. For us, and for Chaos, and for Skaven. But not for Tomb Kings, and not for Brettonians, and not for Lizardmen and Dwarves and Ogres, and that's direct result of published material, people angry at End Times sidelining or explicitly killing off their factions, not people freaking out over nebulous rumors.

Look, the thing people are most upset about*? The main thing causing people to pull back and wait the end times out? It's not round bases, it's not skirmish scale, it's not even the ridiculous bit about MtG style temporary releases. It's the reduction in factions. Even if your old books are still legal, discontinued is still discontinued, and 'chaos dwarfed' isn't meaningfully better than 'squatted'.

I don't even think the product line reduction is the wrong move! I personally think it's necessary. Regrettable, maybe, a decision forced by a series of moves on GW's part over the last several years that absolutely were wrong, and that led us directly to this situation, but still a necessary step in the here and now. But that kind of change ALWAYS come with hurt feelings, and blaming anyone at all for that seems a little ridiculous.


*Well, the thing people are most upset about, among those people who are upset about specific things, and not just 'big change' in general, which, sure, there's plenty of. But the only thing more pointless than old people yelling at clouds is young people yelling at old people for yelling at clouds. Of course, here I am, an old person yelling at young people for yelling at other old people for yelling out clouds, and it's turtles all the way to the bottom, I guess. *shrug*

 

[Yorga]

Wow, that, um, that's kind of selfish, guys. 'My experience of the hobby was ever so slightly inconvenienced by my friends spending less money on about-to-be-discontinued factions, gee I sure wish nobody had warned them about that, so that they could have spent a bunch of money that they would absolutely have regretted six months down the line, if they're choosing not to spend it now based on these rumors.' Yup. That's a moral high ground position, right there. Good job.

You totally missed the point of my post. My point is that I believe Harry is a GW employee and by his gossip he is HURTING his employer. I'm a prosecutor. If I have loose lips and talk where I might be overheard about how one of my colleagues has a challenge because he can't find a critical witness in his case, I hurt him and more importantly the people we are sworn to protect because I might undermine a sensitive negotiation with my gossip. It is no different for Harry. Because of his loose lips I am not buying GW products that I would have 'but for' the leaks. Harry has hurt his company albeit in a small way if you ONLY factor in my spending.

 

[Sception]

The situations aren't really comparable, considering that you leaking things could kill people.

Eh, whatev's.

 

[Von Drak]

I'm not sure if this could be here but I found this about End time Archaon

https://mobile.twitter.com/cascadepodcast/status/573983534655787009

Skavens and chaos ... It's the end of times for sure !