Rule clarification for Black coach

[midean]

Greetings fellow Undead. Well, I have been lurking on other sites to...well....spy on what they say do and plan to do.......

One thing I specifically check is how they plan, think and deal with the black coach and PD absorption. Now, unfortunately some of the sites are under the belief that since both generation and our absorbing happen at the "start" of the phase and that they can use the sequencing rule and say on their turn the BC absorbs before they have to roll. Giving us nothing to absorb. Now, we all here know that is rubbish but as there is no general clarification it tends to lead to arguments about what happens first and sequencing.

Found the section we need to show them whats done first. Pg 47 under the Evocation of death section. Second sentence. "Roll the dice in the power pool". Don't need any more than that. For us to be able to roll the dice in the power pool they would have had to roll for the Winds of Magic. Seems a lot of people are missing this section so next time someone tells you you have to roll for absorption before they roll for winds show them this section. And suck their dice up and KILL them with'em.....

 

[Kalandros]

Yep, the sequencing is exactly what matters here and is used as an advantage for us Vampire counts players because the sequence is specific: You roll the power dice pool. If there is no pool yet, you cannot use the ability and it is not wasted.

 

[bored1]

Eh, that's shaky as far as a "rule" goes. One could argue there is always a power pool in the magic phase, whether it has 0 dice or 12.

If your group/tournament follows Dire Wolf rulings however, they have QA'd it to follow that line of thought. Which is perfectly reasonable, just not RAW from what I can tell.

 

[Ophidicus]

Whether it's "shaky" is just as much a matter a debate as the shakiness itself. I would say there is no pool until the pool is generated. Furthermore, the pool only exists after all the dice in it have been generated.

This is supported by WFB p.30, which outlines a distinct order of procedure, the Winds of Magic 2D6 is rolled, then the casting player creates his pool.

 

[bored1]

That's interesting, and something I missed initially. The rulebook does clearly state that the power pool doesn't exist until after dice roll.

Now the only problem is there isn't anything that compels anyone to actually have a power pool in order to use Evocation as far as I can tell. Logically, it makes sense (how can you roll for the dice in the pool unless it exists). But the counter argument would be that you don't always have something in Warhammer (items against specific races), and then the effect simply doesn't happen. If there's no pool, there's no dice, but the chance has passed and now we move on.

 

[Ophidicus]

"Now the only problem is there isn't anything that compels anyone to actually have a power pool in order to use Evocation as far as I can tell."

I'm not convinced by that (& nor are the Direwolf people), Evocation of Death specifically requires you to "roll all the dice in the power pool." If the pool does not exist, it is impossible to obey this rule. The pool does not exist until after the WoM roll, so to 'roll' no dice for EoD would be against the rules.

"But the counter argument would be that you don't always have something in Warhammer (items against specific races), and then the effect simply doesn't happen."

Could you clarify what you mean? Is there a different example you could use?

 

[Lord Fear]

Now the only problem is there isn't anything that compels anyone to actually have a power pool in order to use Evocation as far as I can tell. Logically, it makes sense (how can you roll for the dice in the pool unless it exists). But the counter argument would be that you don't always have something in Warhammer (items against specific races), and then the effect simply doesn't happen. If there's no pool, there's no dice, but the chance has passed and now we move on.

Exactly, you're so close, but you're just not thinking simply enough. How can you roll the dice in the power pool if they don't exist? You can't. So, proceed to step 1 and generate the dice. Then they do exist. So then they must be rolled- it's what the Evocation tells you to do. So do it! It really IS that simple.

Also the Vampire Counts FAQ says that the VC player must always roll his dice, so that's another nail in the coffin for those who think you can get away with this flagrant rules lawyering

 

[bored1]

Again, the problem is that there is nothing in the rules that requires the presence of the power pool. Just that at some point at the start of the magic phase, you have to roll your dice. Oh look, I tried to roll dice, but there weren't any. Ok, that's done, now I'm going to roll my WoM dice. I've broken no rules.

And that QA question was amazingly idiotic. It managed to provide a meaningless answer. One could argue intent, but certainly not RAW. I'm going to try to absorb magical "emanations", but there aren't any right now. Ok, now that's done, and now there's tons of "emanations".

 

[Zanthor]

@bored1

Well, you can rules-lawyer it that way, but people KNOW how it's supposed to work, and you won't make any friends playing it that way.

 

[midean]

Again, the problem is that there is nothing in the rules that requires the presence of the power pool. Just that at some point at the start of the magic phase, you have to roll your dice. Oh look, I tried to roll dice, but there weren't any. Ok, that's done, now I'm going to roll my WoM dice. I've broken no rules.

And that QA question was amazingly idiotic. It managed to provide a meaningless answer. One could argue intent, but certainly not RAW. I'm going to try to absorb magical "emanations", but there aren't any right now. Ok, now that's done, and now there's tons of "emanations".

Seriously???....... Actually there is something in the rules that require the presence of a power pool. Just check the summery of the turn sequence. Magic phase. First sentence..."Roll for winds of magic". There it is...big bold letter telling the player what he has to do....Not....well, if you want to...or maybe if you feel like rolling some dice. You just can't decide to skip a phase or section just cause you want too......

 

[Grish]

Big thread that went on in the HE forum regarding sequencing in the magic phase. Make of it what you will, but arguments for/against are all there and there's nothing else to add.

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=32450

 

[midean]

Just went thru the thread. I can see some of the arguments for sequecing on some of the items they were describing. Some are rather ambiguous as to when they are used in the magic phase. Fortunately we can point to a place in our book and show whoever when EvO takes place. After they have rolled for the WoM.

 

[Grish]

I'm leaning towards it will be FAQd that most PD generation occurs at the start of the phase. By RAW, it is users choice currently, but it makes for some strange occurrences. Best to clear this up with your opponent before hand, how you want to play it.

If someone has the book handy, can they post up the exact text from Evocation of Death? Would be nice to have it for completeness in this thread, especially if it's in the original post.

 

[bored1]

Any time someone says they know how "it's supposed to work", they are most likely not following the written rules. And to be clear, you still have to roll for the winds, just a question of when. RAW is RAW. All else is hopeful wishes.

 

[Forge]

Any time someone says they know how "it's supposed to work", they are most likely not following the written rules. And to be clear, you still have to roll for the winds, just a question of when. RAW is RAW. All else is hopeful wishes.

This is the biggest thing I encounter when bringing up rules on forums, I agree.

although i think the Black Coach is supposed to be rolled after WoM nothing in the official rules say that it has to be. although when im playing friendly non tournament games id say the CN errata should work.

 

[midean]

Ok...here we go.

"At the start of every magic phase, the black coach can absorb magical energy. Roll the dice in the PD pool. Any of these dice that score a 6 etc etc etc..we know the rest from there. Now the PD pool for any better or less terms is the WoM pool. If we can all agree on that then the rest is pretty simple. Since you are rolling the DICE that have been generated in the WoM pool, you have to have rolled them. And then after rolling them the VC player rolls them..or whoever wants to roll them..I care less, to see how many 6's you get that then get absorbed by the BC. I can't see how you can read it any other way......:slapface:

 

[bored1]

Now the PD pool for any better or less terms is the WoM pool.

This was brought up in another thread. While there is a strong implication, this is not explicitly true. There is no "WoM pool" or, more importantly, a "power dice pool" defined really, so it is open to interpretation.

Since you are rolling the DICE that have been generated in the WoM pool, you have to have rolled them.

See above. There is no WoM pool.[/quote]

 

[midean]

Well then I suggest you go to pg 30 and read the section there on the POWER POOL that is created after you roll the winds of magic. Can't be any clearer than what is written in that section. Making a 'pool' of power dice.

 

[bored1]

note how you said "POWER POOL" and not "power dice pool" (p47 VC book). It is certain that the "power pool" is made up of power dice, but the term "power dice pool", though again there is an implication, is not explicitly defined. Leaving room for interpretation.

I've already stated that this is going to be very tough to argue at a tournament or at the LGS, but nonetheless there is ambiguity. There's a lot of that in Warhammer, and some is simply ignored, but if someone really chooses to press the issue there is no "official" answer.

 

[midean]

Seriously....you argument is that dice was left out so there's some room for interpitation there? When the very next sentance says POOL OF POWER DICE.........:slapface:

 

[Forge]

whether its fair or not, sequencing can technically make the black coach use its ability first. its been ruled that way in national tournaments all over the world.

 

[Troy]

How about the following reply to such a rules lawyer:

Dear Friendly Opponent,

We are dealing with a brand new edition of our beloved game. Only one Army Book currently available (Skaven) has been written with the new rules in mind.

All of the other books were written under old versions of the rules, and are going to need to be considered in light of being written for a past version of our game.

Let us look at the spirit of the rule in question, and not the confusion caused by dealing with two different versions of the rules.

 

[Bishop]

I think that the Beastmen players might be offended! The Beastmen army book was also written with 8th in mind (and it came out after Skaven).

Back OT though,

Yes, I agree that anyone who tries to play it that way is not going to be making any friends.

 

[Lord Fear]

I should also like to point out the first line of the evocation's rule is mostly just descriptive text: "At the start of every magic phase, the black coach can absorb magical energy". This isn't a pure rules statement, as magical energy is not an actual in-game term. Now, the sentence ends in a fullstop- not a (semi)colon. This is important as if it were a colon, then it would mean the next line is directly linked to the original statement. Instead, the next line starts after the period, and it is telling you something new, "Roll the dice in the PD pool". It doesn't tell you to do that directly at the start of the phase, does it? In fact it gives no time reference at all.

Sure, we could apply common sense to work out they mean this is the act of absorbing magical energy and it happens at the start of the phase, but if we're going to do that, then we're damn well going to apply the rational, logical thinking that tells us that the power dice pool will be rolled after it is generated (Rather than before).

The best part is, that this highlights the sheer self-delusion involved on the rules lawyers' parts. If anyone tries this against you, get out the book, and read the rule out loud.

"At the start of every magic phase, the black coach can absorb magical energy"
Then, make a feigned, deliberate attempt to find something that defines this. Look in the index. Then, shrug and tell your opponent that the rule doesn't actually state what this is. So, declare that your coach will indeed attempt to absorb magical energy. Then waggle your fingers at it, and beseech the heavens to grant your Coach the power! Then, when nothing happens (beyond your opponent's bemused expression), shrug and say okay, you've tried to absorb the magical power, nothing's happened, and that you should get on with the phase. Have them generate the power dice pool, and then go "Oh look, here's another line. It says I should roll those dice. It doesn't say exactly when, so I better do it now".

Now, you're facing a rules lawyer. He's going to whine. He's going to moan. He's going to lie. He's going to get angry. Just ask him, ever -so-politely to show him where it says that the dice themselves must be rolled at the start of the magic phase. The bit you're waiting for is for him to ask you to be serious, to use your common sense, or how obvious it is what they mean.

Then, if they have an ounce of dignity... they will realise how foolish their own argument was, let you roll the pool dice, and get on with the game.

And if they still don't... well, you can always fall back on the fact that nothing says you have to play your opponent in the first place.

whether its fair or not, sequencing can technically make the black coach use its ability first. its been ruled that way in national tournaments all over the world.

Only Finland to my knowledge, and possibly where you're from. In all (few) cases it shows a glaring lack of understanding on the part of the organisers.

 

[Ophidicus]

Lord Fear, for all the funny looks I've given my screen when I read some of your replies, I really want to hug you after reading that post.