Legion of Nagash Rules Development Thread: Spectral Cavalry

[Reincus]

I think 45 is too cheap because of the ignore armor saves ability. That is a massive bonus. Knights pretty much negate armor when they charge anyways due to their higher then average str from impact, but these knights when they GET charged by other knights don't die (2+ AS and +4 ward) which is already big, then add insult to injury because any return attacks (and each model has 2! attacks) that wound kill outright.

They have excellent movement, ignore terrain, have good armor save, astonishing WS for undead, have a ward save, magical attacks, no armor save and some special rules. They basically have no down side except for points, so the point cost should reflect that.

 

[Belladamma Voltaire]

Their stats do not outclass a Chaos Knight, their abilities are highly subjective and they are as good as elite infantry. Paying 45 points each isn't that much as anything magical that hits will stand a good chance of wounding and negating their armour save. 45 points is proportional to that in my opinion.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Hmmmm - how about a possibly S and T drop? Down to S3, T3, they still are tough with the armour and still hit pretty hard.

But would they be worth their 45pts then?

 

[Reincus]

Chaos knights may have a better statline, but they don't cause terror, need LOS to their target, suffer barding penalties, and can't charge through a screening unit of allies. Terror causing cav is a huge advantage when you consider that they can autobreak even fear causing enemies like chaos knights. I just think that the for the points cost the ignoring armor saves is bit over the top.

Think about it from a countering perspective. How would you kill them if they were across the table? You can't shoot them if they are screened properly, and even if you do, most shooting will have to get through To 4, 2+ AS and a ward save. If you get magic off then it's ONLY To 4 and 2+ AS. They can half kill a tree man on the charge (which they will get with high movement and terrain/unit ignoring) because they ignore his Armor AND his ward save. Whatever you did to counter with would take a considerable amount of resources, and probably more then 225 points the unit cost.

For the point cost and their effectiveness, who would not take them in a playable army? IMO if the point cost doesn't make you wonder if it's worth it, then it's too cheap. And there is no doubt in my mind that for 45pt per model, this unit would be worth it. I'd take 4 units of them along with some cheap core to screen with.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

So what would be your recommendation?

 

[Reincus]

The simple way would be to just jack up the price.

They are better then a basic wraith in almost every way, and they are 50 pts a pop.

Making them 3-10 unit size and making them 60-75 pts each wouldn't be crazy IMO.

A unit of 5 would cost you 300 pts naked, but I can't think of too many basic troops it wouldn't break on the charge. Once you cough up command you are looking at 330-350pts, barring magic banners. That's a cost that players may or may not be willing to take, which, IMO, means it's close to where it needs to be. They are still an insanely good unit in the hands of even an average general, but you won't see many effective armies that min/max them if the point cost is right.

I'm assuming there is some way to heal these guys as well, through magic or items? That should make a high cost more managable as well.

Edit: Think about this comparison. These guys will do exactly the same damage to a unit of ironbreakers that they would do to a unit of basic dwarf warriors. They still hit on 4s, still wound on 3s, ignore their armor, and autobreak them if they get the outnumber+win (even if the ironbreakers are stubborn with with a hero). That ability to do universal damage should cost this unit quite a bit, if only because you are negating a lot of his points simply by showing up.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

So how about 65pts each?

 

[Reincus]

Sounds about right to me. If some people here think it's slightly too much then we are pretty close. =)

 

[Belladamma Voltaire]

I'm in agreement with 65 points...

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Ok, so same stats, points increase to 65 - do you think they need a restriction? As in only one unit per 2000pts?

 

[Reincus]

I think as long as other rare choices are competative it's not needed.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Well the other confirmed Rare is the Ancient Warrior - https://www.vampirecounts.net/showthread.php?tid=382

 

[N1AK]

So based on that:

Spectral Cavalry - 45pts each

Spectre - M 4 / WS 4 / BS 0 / S 4 / T 4 / W 1 / I 3 / A 2 / Ld 5
Champion M 4 / WS 4 / BS 0 / S 4 / T 4 / W 1 / I 3 / A 3 / Ld 5
Mount - M 8 / WS 2 / BS 0 / S 4 / T 3 / W 1 / I 2 / A 1 / Ld 2

Equipment:
Spears
Spirit Armour

Options:
-Any unit may upgrade one Specter to a Musician for +10 pts.
-Any unit may upgrade one Specter to a Standard Bearer for +20 pts.
-Any unit may upgrade one Specter to a Champion for +20 pts.
-May upgrade Champion with Ethersight for +25pts
-Any unit may give their Standard bearer a magic banner of up to a total of 75 pts.

Special Rules:
Terror
Undead
Insubstantial Steed Rule - As per the VC rulebook with the following addition:
They may also charge or march through friendly units as long as they fully clear the friendly unit at the end of thier movement, if they fail to clear it either counts as a failed charge if the unit was charging, either way if the remaining movement takes them into the unit they will stop when they touch the friendly unit.

Spirit Armour
Grants the bearer 2+ armour save, and a 4+ ward save vs non - magical attacks only, movement is not affected by this armour.

Deadly Touch
Attacks do not allow armour saves and count as magical.

Spectral Wind
At the end of the combat phase, if the unit has won combat but not broken the enemy they may choose instead to leave combat by passing through the enemy unit. Roll 2D6 as if pursuing out the back of the enemy unit, providing the distance rolls clears the enemy unit place the Spectral Cavalry appropriately. If the roll is not enough to clear the enemy unit the spectral cavalry remains in position and the enemy will strike first next next combat phase unless their weapons or other special rule prohibits them from doing so (i.e GW), the enemy does not gain any other bonus's i.e strength bonuses.
This ability cannot be used if the Spectral Cavalry has been charged in the flank or rear.

Ethersight
The unit can see through all terrain and friendly units in regards to LOS for charging.

Sorry to put this so bluntly but all that for 65 points is stupid cheap.

I really don't even know where to start as they have such good starting stats, and numerous highly beneficial abilities on top of that.

Your basically taking something with stats on par with elite Cavalry, and giving them:
1/ Cause Terror.
2/ Ability to move through terrain unhindered.
3/ Ability to charge through your own units (allowing charge blocking etc).
4/ Ignoring armour saves (making them without exception the best Cav unit in the game after the charge).
5/ 4+ Ward against the majority of attacks in the game.
6/ Magical attacks.
7/ Ability to go through units if they don't break.
8/ Discounted Command choices.
9/ Undead.
10/ Barding that doesn't slow them down.

I can't even estimate what a fair cost is for all that but it without a doubt isn't less than 75 points, though personally I wouldn't play against them regardless. House rule units are supposed to be for fun, if someone put something with that many buffs down it stinks of power gaming (whether by intention or not).

 

[Belladamma Voltaire]

I can think of many ways to counter these and by taking them you are significantly hampering your own army in a big way. Combat Resolution IS going to hurt these guys, despite what you might think. My only possible qualm with it in retrospect is Ethersight should be the effect of a magical banner and an expensive one at that.

 

[N1AK]

There are ways of countering a High Elf Star Dragon, it doesn't mean it should only cost 100 points.

The only thing that holds the points value of these guys back is that they have 1W but that can only account for so much, they simply have too many special rules (and powerful ones at that) to be fairly pointed in all situations. However given their incredible charge abilities (throught terrain, units etc) used properly they should be reasonably reliable.
Due to armour they are in fact more resilient to magical attacks that Wraiths even if they only have 1W.

You may think they are fairly pointed, and that's fine. I'm merely offering my opinion that they aren't, because I don't want people who try to use these and find some opponents won't play them to be suprised when it happens.

 

[Sweeney Todd]

I think it would help if you keep either Ethersight or Spectral Wind, and ditched the other. Certainly not both together.

 

[chris_havoc]

Hmmmm... I like it for 65 points, however, I think I would make one change to charging through units. Either the friendly unit you charge through suffers from the Spectral Wind thing i.e. they count as being charged and take x-amount of wounds from the cavalry moving through them. Or I would remove the ability to charge through units but still be allowed to charge through terrain. Charging through friendly units is insane especially when it isn't limited to being able to charge through one type of unit like kroxigors and the skink screen.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Hey , thanks for your input everyone, the aim is to make a balanced unit.

Ok - so how about we remove the ability to charge through friendly units.
This should then balance Ethersight a bit as it will only apply to seeing through terrain.

Possibly drop S & T down to 3?

 

[Reincus]

I like the ability to charge through allies, I think it's a neat ability, but as has been mentioned, we should look at it hurting the unit. A certain number of wounds (D6? 2D6?) w/ no armor save? Can't move/shoot/charge that turn either?

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Problem is if we make it too detrimental to the unit they are going through, no one will ever use it. How about a S2 hit with no armour saves for every model in the Cavalry unit?

 

[Reincus]

Sorry, I was talking about applying the damage to the unit it ran through. The screening unit.

 

[chris_havoc]

It's a neat ability but it's an over-powered one if you ask me even with the unit taking damage. I honestly think that charging through friendly units should be dropped. Or at least have some huge drawback to using it like damaging the unit it goes through severely OR having some chance of the unit popping if their charge movement ends within a friendly unit or terrain.

 

[Reincus]

Another possibility: Allow that ability to be on a one use magical item.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Ok how about this - if charging through a friendly unit the following applies:

An undead unit suffers D6 auto wounds as per crumbling
An alive unit must take a panic check.

 

[Dark Lord Nihilus]

Suggestions: ethersight should be dropped, the ward save should be dropped, and their attacks should allow armor saves.

They are still unique, a bit more balanced and we can drop them down to 50 points per model.

Appeasing all,
-The Dark Lord