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Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
So I've been seeing rumours about a supposedly second wave, with a new battletome! I can't see how that would be considering the recency, but apparently this might be because SBG hasn't been optimised for the new edition?

Anyone heard anything similar? Any thoughts as to whether we need it anyway?
 

The Sun King

Moderator
Staff member
True Blood
Aug 22, 2012
4,989
Copenhagen
Interesting. I haven't heard such rumours no, but they did do something similar with Lumineth. If they do I would really appreciate if they made the Korsagi Nightguard, the Vargskyr and the Bloodborn as separate units - I'm not a fan(g) of the "buy-one-buy-all" structure they have been using for implementing the boxset minis into regular armies.
 

Belladamma Voltaire

Vyrkos Primogen
True Blood
Aug 15, 2007
2,829
Manchester, UK
Whoever said SBG would get a second wave is pulling your leg. Having read the new rules and seen the multiple general instances available in the new book, I think a second wave would be unnecessary at this point.
 

Grave Tacticus

Moderator
Staff member
Jul 26, 2020
334
Utah
I wouldn't put is passed GW to do a second wave with a "BRAND NEW" battletome. Hopefully the Wight King's command ability is fixed, I mean, that was ridiculous.
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
Interesting. I haven't heard such rumours no, but they did do something similar with Lumineth. If they do I would really appreciate if they made the Korsagi Nightguard, the Vargskyr and the Bloodborn as separate units - I'm not a fan(g) of the "buy-one-buy-all" structure they have been using for implementing the boxset minis into regular armies.
I've seen a lot of complaints on this and I'm surprised at how they have done it, surely it wouldn't be too hard to separate them? They are awesome models as well.


I wouldn't put is passed GW to do a second wave with a "BRAND NEW" battletome. Hopefully the Wight King's command ability is fixed, I mean, that was ridiculous.
On this, what is the big complaint about the Wight Kings command ability. I loved they remade the classic camel model, so was hoping he would be useful?
 

Sersi

Skeleton
Nov 21, 2009
54
I don't see a new Battletome coming anytime soon. But new models are assured, which will come with their warscroll in the box anyway. We'll get a Vampire Lord on Nightmare, and replacement Grave Guard eventually. Whether or not we get get Bat Swarms back is hard to say; although I'm very bitter about loosing them and my Lord on Nightmare. Other than than Soulblight is all plastic now and has more units than the other Death factions.
 

Belladamma Voltaire

Vyrkos Primogen
True Blood
Aug 15, 2007
2,829
Manchester, UK
I've seen a lot of complaints on this and I'm surprised at how they have done it, surely it wouldn't be too hard to separate them? They are awesome models as well.

They did the models for them on the same sprues for some of the creatures if memory serves (I made mine almost instantly).

I think we got enough new things in the boxes we have as hexwraiths remain a unit for the nighthaunt so need updating too. The only thing I would like is some updated Grave Guard.
 

Gederas

Grave Guard
Jun 15, 2021
208
Rhode Island
Currently, there's no hard evidence outside of the Lumineth being released with a "playable, but some obvious missing things" battletome... Which Gravelords kind of feel like. And it's basically the Cursed City models: Bat and Rat swarms, Vyrkos Blood-Born (seriously, Radukar the Beast is paling around with two), the Vargskyr. The Kosargi Nightguard I can understand because they're kind of tied to Radukar himself.

Really, all they'd need to do would be make a multipart kit of Bat and Rat Swarms (possibly like the Chaotic Beasts where it's two units in one box), Vyrkos Blood-Born and a Vargskyr. Maybe also an updated Corpse Guard and otherwise the line is good, as even the oldest plastic kit in the line (Corpse Cart) isn't bad, it just has utterly trash instructions :lol:

I've seen a lot of complaints on this and I'm surprised at how they have done it, surely it wouldn't be too hard to separate them? They are awesome models as well.
Well, I'm not sure about the Cursed City sprues, as it might be a case of "too much effort for not enough return" (plastic injection moulds are EXPENSIVE), but they've made a recut of the ETB Sequitors specifically for the "free build and paint" model so...

On this, what is the big complaint about the Wight Kings command ability. I loved they remade the classic camel model, so was hoping he would be useful?
It's basically a RAW/RAI mess. This is their command ability:

"Lord of Bones: At the rasped command of their king, the Deathrattle hordes lay about the enemy with a tireless focus.

You can use this command ability in your hero phase. If you do so, pick 1 friendly Deathrattle unit wholly within 12" of this model. Until the end of that phase, you can re-roll hit rolls of 1 for attacks made with melee weapons by that unit."

The Wight King (both foot and mounted) have their Command Ability work in the hero phase, when it affects combat. And there's no way for any Deathrattle unit to attack during the Hero Phase. So basically, they don't have a command ability at all :lol:
 
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Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
Whether or not we get get Bat Swarms back is hard to say; although I'm very bitter about loosing them
Agreed, bat swarms are so linked to Vampires, we need our cloud of bityness! 🦇

@Gederas ah I see what you mean with the Wight King, although surely that's obvious 🙄 why would they otherwise give the WK a command ability that has no affect. I used to hate those who stuck to RAW
 

Oppenheimer

Varghulf
May 26, 2013
743
I feel like this one was a bit sloppy, such as the Wight King's command ability being a typo about the phase it works in (as others mentioned too). But, overall I think an FAQ would be fine rather than a new book. Not that I wouldn't buy a second new book if it had any new units in it.
 

Kassill

Grave Guard
Sep 28, 2011
221
With the lumineth release I'm a bit hesitant. I'd love to say no this is it, and not have to buy some more stuff a year from now, but GW knows I will. And with the lack of faction terrain and endless spells (I know the necroquake is over but come on, this was the coolest addition to AoS) the release did feel smaller in comparison to some others, and now we're immediately overshadowed by AoS 3 and these new Orruks.
 

El Syf

Vargheist
Dec 4, 2011
648
Eastbourne
There's a couple of dodgy things that make me think there could be a second wave.
No mounted vampire lord entry anymore, grave guard models now looking less elite than normal skegs, no endless spells, bloodborn could have been a perfect vamp infantry unit. They're all I can think of atm but it's an odd one. The battletome is fine in my opinion, there's just some weird head scratchers.
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
I did find it interesting we didn't get any endless spells whilst I believe the other Death battletomes have. The lack of the mounted vampire is another one agreed.

It really comes down to whether GW believes they can capitalise on it, but there are other factions that desperately need more updates. My gut feel says we probably won't get a second wave anytime soon.
 

The Sun King

Moderator
Staff member
True Blood
Aug 22, 2012
4,989
Copenhagen
The lack of Endless Spells and other terrain additions could also be because of brexit since (if I remember correctly) most of those models has been made in China. This is pure speculation though.

To be honest I don't think there is reason to believe that the lack of a mounted VL is an omission. We have plenty of mobile heroes. Would be cool if they made one though.

I do think the Korsagi, the Vargskyr and the Bloodborn should be seperate units. I would defintely not be surprised seeing them in their own boxes down the line.
 
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Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
Why would Brexit affect Chinese imports though....? If that's the reason why, another thing it's irritated me on! Sception made another post about GW setting the scene for vampires, like they previously did when they split Undead into TK and VC, and they certainly grew and iterated on them afterwards, so this could likely be the same situation. That said, we'll probably be waiting until AoS 4 now!
 

The Sun King

Moderator
Staff member
True Blood
Aug 22, 2012
4,989
Copenhagen
To be honest the thing with chinese import and brexit is speculation but I figured that if it took GW three months to send me (who lives really close by, in Denmark) a copy of Battle Sisters codex then shipping from China to UK would be even worse.
 

Sception

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Sep 23, 2009
2,714
There are certainly models I'd like to see out of a second wave - new grave guard, mounted vampire lords, maybe a specialist caster vampire (and maybe a necrarch style caster bloodline to go with it), separate releases for some of the cursed city stuff - including maybe making some of those units generic rather than vyrkos specific, and in particular bringing back the bat and rat swarms. I'd also like to see bespoke models for grave sites and some faction specific endless spells.

But I don't really expect any of that to arrive in 3rd edition. While there may seem to be a couple gaps in our model range, it really is among the more robust in the game, and the release wave that came with the current battletome was honestly quite significant, an overhaul many other oldhammer holdover factions look at with no small amount of envy. And the book itself, while it looked a bit iffy in the dying light of second edition, is /very/ strong out of the gate in third edition, with not just one but several potentially competitively viable builds. I'm sure in time tournament players will converge on one or two best set ups, which will in turn slowly sink beneath the rising tide of power creep as the edition continues, but if the Gravelords see literally nothing else for the entire duration of third edition I still don't think you could call them hard done by.

I'm not saying a significant second wave and battletome update /couldn't/ happen, Lumineth shows that anything is possible, I just wouldn't bet any money on it.
 

Sception

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Sep 23, 2009
2,714
I know, right? and you could just see it - floating with its toes just above the ground like the ossiarch soulreaper, tattered robes over it's lower half, bare chested with a scalloped cape and high collar on the upper half to show off its withered, emaciated form and necrarch style face, clawed hands raised in arcane gestures with spirit energy swirling about like GW likes to do with wizard models sometimes. rules-wise it's also pretty straight forward - vampire lord with one less save, one less attack, no command ability, but two casts/unbinds and some kind of cool signature spell, maybe old style vile transference, maybe just give it the same spell that the vampire lord lost.

Necrarch-style bloodline also practically writes itself, revolving around a core dynasty feature of letting their vampires choose spells from the deathmage lore. Maybe a 'vampiric magic' ability that lets your vampire wizards drain one wound from enemy wizards whenever they unbind an enemy wizard's spell, or whenever an enemy wizard tries but fails to unbind one of theirs. Throw in some caster oriented command traits and artefacts, some others that support summonable units, to nudge the subfaction's list building away from the more jockish vampire units, and you're good to go.

As is, I guess vyrkos is what we've currently got for a 'magic bloodline', but while the theming isn't exactly /not/ there, I mean there a certain baba yaga / witch of the woods feel that sort of fits their russian forest kind of flavor, but it's no where near as direct as the old necrarchs or the legion of sacrament were, and while Volga herself is an impressive spellcaster, the generic vyrkos vampires are held back by their lack of signature spells and the overall badness of the vampire spell lore.

It really does leave a pretty obvious and painful thematic gap in the faction where a necrarch dynasty, or a non-vampire deathmage dynasty, or even a 'these are historic rules' legion of sacrament dynasty wants to go. Hopefully that gap is obvious enough to the designers that it gets filled in later. In the mean time there's always home brew.
 

Oppenheimer

Varghulf
May 26, 2013
743
Totally agree that mounted vampire needs a redo. It's not actually that old a model but while I think the terrorgheist looks great the zombie dragon doesn't do it for me.
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
It's a confusing one for me why GW would leave such an obvious gap with the Necrarchs, as they were arguably one of the most popular bloodlines before along with Blood Dragons, certainly more so than Carsteins or Lahmians to an extent. A lot of players loved the magic heavy play and the nosferatu styling.

I'm loving the mental imagery there Sception, and I'd agree I'd be happy with a physically weaker/less tactical vampire in that regard. There was one spell/ability we created before for the homebrew Legion of Nagash, which allowed a caster to effectively see out the eyes of one of his units, being a proper puppet master and seeing what his minions did - for the rest of the magic phase they counted as being in that spot for casting purposes and a miscast (excluding ones that affected magic/magic levels) affected the proxy. I'd love to see something like that, and other similar abilities or spells that better highlighted the controlling/cannon fodder aspect of an undead army 😁
 

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