So what do you think of the new book?

[Wargamer]

Forbidden Lore is useless? Am I missing something from everything other than Life that's been gone for a while? The basic lores allow for some tremendous combinations to be established if used properly. By the sound of it here is you've already lit its candle and sent it up the Ganges.

With the standard game moving more towards 3000 points and armies seemingly heading this way with 8th edition I see absolutely no reason to not use Forbidden Lore to create a walloping surprise for anyone who thinks the Lore of Vampires is the end word in our magic.

Useless? Far from it. But it isn't as useful as it was. Losing the Loremaster part and the attractiveness of running multiple Vampire Lore Wizards for Nehek spam & backup for crumbling really hurt the power's value.

 

[Archean]

Love the book, love the hardback, the colour and the army lists. Variety is back to a degree and my army based on Zombies and a Vamp lord on Abysal Terror sucks alot less!

Only gripe, one and only, only, only, gripe is the Vargheist fluff!

I'll favoured Von Carsteins (Must be a zillion....), locked away ( not killed), that by absolute chance, have warp stone contaminated water (Common?) drip into their coffins????

SERIOUSLY!!!!!!!!!!!!

Chance is like 1 in a million......

Shoot the the fluff man.

 

[sabastionz]

what has happened to the black coach, i have yet to get the new book but i have heard bad things about it.

 

[klunc]

I'll favoured Von Carsteins (Must be a zillion....), locked away ( not killed), that by absolute chance, have warp stone contaminated water (Common?) drip into their coffins????

SERIOUSLY!!!!!!!!!!!!

Chance is like 1 in a million......

It does say, and has for a while (??) that very early on, showers of warpstone fell on Sylvania causing the land to become twisted and horrible like it is.

So I imagine it might be more common than other areas of the Empire?

 

[Kuwanger23]

I got the book a few days ago and I poured through it several times. The most important thing I can take away from it is that we have more viable options. It isn't just going to be ghoul hammer with a side of DW. Or GG death star. All the options seem not only solid but they play o each other. There is a lot of Synergy in this book.

We did get hit in a few places but over all I think we got balanced nicely. The army isn't about winning combat by 1 against non immune to Psychology units. We can actually fight now. there are many tools that give us re rolls to hits/wounds/+1 attack -ld for fear tests and so on. Also this means with all of those tools and ASF we can actually fight immune to Pysch units and win combat. A lot of our units and items have buffs/debuffs. I am loving the bat swarms now. I am just hoping they don't give up too much combat rez being only t2 even if they are making a unit strike last. Either way they are good at clearing out warmachines.

I am excited about the army. I can see all the blood lines once again represented. good job GW. How it's time to take these ideas and put them on the table to see what we can come up with.

 

[Vege Zombie]

what has happened to the black coach, i have yet to get the new book but i have heard bad things about it.

Black coach haven't changed much.
Evocation of death only works in your own magic phase, but it no longer drain the power dices so you can still use them. Also the coach has become little cheaper, so actually they IMO buffed it.

 

[crafty0ne]

After reading the book when I got it, I was somewhat divided. Yes we got some new cool toys, but some fundamental flaws(unstable and multiple combats) weren't even addressed. But yesterday, I finally got my first game in with the new rules.....and holy crap am I impressed.

I play "themed" armies, and the list I was using was centered around a battle line of skeletons, one horde formation of sword and board with two smaller units of spear skellies. In every game under the old army book, these units would get decimated with shooting before even getting to combat, and would fail to do anything when they did get there. I don't think my main battle line ever survived a full game before. But yesterday, they outperformed any other unit on the board. The horde formation alone took out a 30 strong unit of Dark Elf Corsairs, followed that up by chomping up a unit of 40 Dark elf spearmen, and then charged and defeated 4 Cold One Knights(failed to catch them on the pursuit so they survived)!!! All made possible with Vanhels, Hellish Vigor, Invocation and a supporting corpse cart. In one round of combat(against the corsairs) I was lucky enough to get all 3 spells off on the horde of skellies, re-raising 7 of them, giving them re-rolls to hit AND wound, and getting always strike first from the CC. They caused 9 wounds that round and broke the corsairs like an empty bottle of cheap vodka. I cant wait to get some more games in and really get to know the new rules, but in the meantime, I am very pleased with it.

 

[Necromancer]

My only real complaint so far is that lords got more expensive and start at level 1 now. That 105pts is quite a lot.

 

[Æon]

Irregardless of power level, I think this book will provide VC players with some much-needed variation in their lists. Few no-brainers (pun) and few useless units make for a much more interesting book.

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

I still like allot of what I am seeing, ghoul kings are a let down as they are not survivable at all and the magic restriction makes any such army a joke unless you really on master necromancers but what confused me was the ghoul points increase.

They were fine as they were but now they are 1 point cheaper than a unit that has a base 4+ armour, +1 Strength, 6+ Parry and killing blow over them......
Thats allot for 1 point.

 

[The Dead of Night]

Only 1 attack no poison and they take special points. I think they were cheap for 8 points. I haven't decided if they're worth 10 or not, but GG are an auto include in an infantry army, so they might not be the best comparison either.

Ghouls are better against monsters too, especially if you get Danse off on them. GG have nice synergy with vigour, and are better against heavy infantry or cavalry units.

I'm not gonna say 10 points is right, but I'm not all that confused by it either.

 

[Fenrir]

Is it it worth buying the new book? I might just retire the army rather than bother buying any of the new stuff.

 

[Forgotten Heretic]

the new book is definately worth buying, i'd at least have a look at it before retiring your army

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

Only 1 attack no poison and they take special points. I think they were cheap for 8 points. I haven't decided if they're worth 10 or not, but GG are an auto include in an infantry army, so they might not be the best comparison either.

Ghouls are better against monsters too, especially if you get Danse off on them. GG have nice synergy with vigour, and are better against heavy infantry or cavalry units.

I'm not gonna say 10 points is right, but I'm not all that confused by it either.

hey are not worth 10 points and their crumbling and lack of armour made them worth the 8.
GG are heavy hitting but it is now the nearest army comparison for them, also where as I agree ghouls are better against monsters with low saves and the attacks from the first rank is nice, they can not cause the pain the GG can with their strength.

You can not go out saying they are better with spells though, we are looking at them as they stand without backup.

Is it it worth buying the new book? I might just retire the army rather than bother buying any of the new stuff.

Try looking at the book, I know you are not overflowing with enthusiasm but if thats the level of excitement to expect going forwards, game with something else.

 

[Sception]

Ghouls were like grave guard - too good for their points not for their inherent stats and abilities but rather for the amount and kinds of buffs you could give them. The designer got it right with grave guard - take away the helm and the drakenhoff and introduce some special choice competition and they're still good, but nowhere near as dominating. They should have done the same with ghouls. Without vanguard, or the ability to raise above starting size, or the helm, and with skittles and zombies given more reasonable points costs (and, in the case of zombies, statlines), the ghouls would have been fine at 8 points a model. But with all those changes and a hefty points increase, they're really hard to justify now.

 

[jcmousley]

All in All I quite like this book, interesting new units and revised rules, however there are a few mayjor problems. 1) why are all the special characters the Von Carsteins or the classic duo, would it kill GW to create some new ones. 2) do VC not need a wide variety of Magic items and Vampire powers because I always thought they did so opponents weren't sure which type of vampire you were going to have new book gives very little variety.


Dire wolves get uber charge yay. No wolf form boo - this sums up my view of new book.

 

[Carnivale]

I'm overall impressed. Looks to be nicely in line with the other armies that have received the new books. There will be fierce units and good match-ups for the force. The magic item gutting still isn't as bad as the poor Orks suffered. And great art choices.

So it's good by me.

Cheers.

 

[The Dead of Night]

You can not go out saying they are better with spells though, we are looking at them as they stand without backup.

Are we? Speak for yourself lol. If you look at units in a vacuum you are guaranteed to create a broken book. The synergy that exists within a book is where it gets its power from. Look at GG in the last edition and all the buffs they got from magic items. Broken. The same was true of ghouls to a lesser extent, and part of the reason was the magic you could cast on them. It's difficult to price magic directly, because each unit is affected differently. Ghouls last edition were cheap and one of the main reasons was the magic you could cast on them. The same is true in this book, and with a lot of units. You can't price bat swarms based on what they can do on their own, using them in tandem with something else is where they get their power from.

Ghouls were like grave guard - too good for their points not for their inherent stats and abilities but rather for the amount and kinds of buffs you could give them. The designer got it right with grave guard - take away the helm and the drakenhoff and introduce some special choice competition and they're still good, but nowhere near as dominating. They should have done the same with ghouls. Without vanguard, or the ability to raise above starting size, or the helm, and with skittles and zombies given more reasonable points costs (and, in the case of zombies, statlines), the ghouls would have been fine at 8 points a model. But with all those changes and a hefty points increase, they're really hard to justify now.

I'm not so sure about that just yet, you only need so many tar pits and with the inability to march away from the general, you only want so many. I still see ghouls as a strong choice, I think at 8 pts per model they'd still be a no brainer.

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

You can not go out saying they are better with spells though, we are looking at them as they stand without backup.

Are we? Speak for yourself lol. If you look at units in a vacuum you are guaranteed to create a broken book. The synergy that exists within a book is where it gets its power from. Look at GG in the last edition and all the buffs they got from magic items. Broken. The same was true of ghouls to a lesser extent, and part of the reason was the magic you could cast on them. It's difficult to price magic directly, because each unit is affected differently. Ghouls last edition were cheap and one of the main reasons was the magic you could cast on them. The same is true in this book, and with a lot of units. You can't price bat swarms based on what they can do on their own, using them in tandem with something else is where they get their power from.

Ghouls were like grave guard - too good for their points not for their inherent stats and abilities but rather for the amount and kinds of buffs you could give them. The designer got it right with grave guard - take away the helm and the drakenhoff and introduce some special choice competition and they're still good, but nowhere near as dominating. They should have done the same with ghouls. Without vanguard, or the ability to raise above starting size, or the helm, and with skittles and zombies given more reasonable points costs (and, in the case of zombies, statlines), the ghouls would have been fine at 8 points a model. But with all those changes and a hefty points increase, they're really hard to justify now.

I'm not so sure about that just yet, you only need so many tar pits and with the inability to march away from the general, you only want so many. I still see ghouls as a strong choice, I think at 8 pts per model they'd still be a no brainer.

Everything in a book has things that work together yes, things are designed to compliment each other in certain whays and thats how they are designed to be played in order to get the most out of them.
However increasing a points value because you can lavish power dice on them is not a reason to do so, these are extra resources you are having to spend to make it worth its points where as another would not have such restrictions and that in itself is wrong.
GG were never broken or OP, they were our best troop and had killing blow with a possible great weapon upgrade, factor in their poor speed, WS, average armour and the fact they crumbled they were not OP at all.
Magic items come with their own price tags, you don't add a price onto a unit just because it may have a certain item appear in it.

So what you are saying is that because of magic everything should cost more?
Then by that logic dwarfs should be dirt cheap and are hugely overpriced.
Every army has its own lore to an extent and generates magic dice the same way, it does not mean we should price things out of the game because of how they may be used.

 

[crafty0ne]

So what you are saying is that because of magic everything should cost more?
Then by that logic dwarfs should be dirt cheap and are hugely overpriced.
Every army has its own lore to an extent and generates magic dice the same way, it does not mean we should price things out of the game because of how they may be used.

In addition to your point, you are never guaranteed to have access to a certain spell in all games or situations. If you price a unit based on the fact that it MAY be buffed with hellish vigor or danse macbre, then how do you value the unit in small games where you rolled poorly for spell selection and didn't end up with those spells on any of your wizards?

 

[The Dead of Night]

No one said you should price things out of the game. It is however a fact that certain units can be more worth their points or even a no brainer based largely on what they can synergise with.

In the case of our magic lore and items, they are designed to help negate some of our weaknesses. It's no coincidence that an army that can't march and has low WS also has spells to move units and reroll misses. While it seems easy to price magic accordingly, it actually isn't. Each unit is affected differently by each item and spell. Hell, even the basic equipment a unit has can affect it. KB synergises more with rerolling failed wounds when equipped with a sword and board, than when equipped with GW.

Dwarfs are a bad example because their book was written in 6th. At the end of 7th I would have told you they were extremely overpriced. Through sheer coincidence 8th works in their favour.

That being said, you're still making a very poor point. Dwarfs are compensated for their lack of magic with war machines, the anvil and runes. All of which synergise with their army in the same way that magic and items synergise with VC. They are the best dispellers in the game. Their movement is either compensated for by the anvil or the rune that allows them to move before the game starts (or their scouts and ambushers) or by the fact they shoot so well moving can actually hinder them. They have a significant number of runes to increase their SCR (important when the book was written). They have runes for improving their unit strength, ability to pass a break test and immunity to psych. All important when the book was written.

If they didn't have these item and they had no magic; then I would ABSOLUTELY say they were overcosted. In fact, they would have been the worst army in the game.

I'd like to counter your argument with the opposite perspective. If items were costed to perfectly represent their worth, ie their cost perfectly countered their use. Then you could play without them and still be competitive. This just isn't the case for any army. It doesn't matter that you could swap a + 1 to hit banner for 4 GG with GW, you're still taking the banner. The price of the banner is there to dictate what you can and can't take just as much as as for its own balance. You can only take 1 expensive banner in an army and the bearer can be specifically targeted by the enemy.

It's just the way GW has designed it. The point balance works across the army not on individuals. Your theory of everything being costed for its own worth is nice, but it doesn't work that way.

 

[Bravo_10]

I don't actually believe I've posted on this thread before. Here are my thoughts.

For one, I quite like the new book as opposed to the old one, for two reasons. Firstly, we have a lot more options. In the previous book, many of our choices (7th edition Bat Swarms :slapface: ) were just plain useless, and there were really only a few competitive builds that one could use and actually hope to win games with. The new book offers a lot of flexibility and the possibility many more powerful builds. There won't be as many deathstar lists as there were in the previous edition due to the lack of the Drakenhof Banner and the Helm of Commandment.

Secondly, the book just feels better for use in the 8th edition. I don't know about anybody else, but spamming spells just felt wrong. It seemed like I was playing the game with an outdated and inefficient ruleset (which, to be honest, I was). The new magic lore isn't overpowering, but it seems balanced and sensible for use in 8th edition Warhammer. The loss of the Vanhel's charge saddens me, but again, it just felt like the rules were moving in a direction away from sure-thing charges, and having an automatic 8" charge just felt wrong. Plus, the ability to use Vanhel's as an AOE spell is pretty fantastic.

/edit: Oh and also...

1000th POST!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Zanos]

Well, I have to say, while the book may have spots people don't like that, isn't that how most codices and army books are? The only perfect one I can think of is Grey Knights . But I must say, I've been having fun with this book, and I definitely like it.

 

[Zeleck]

got the book today and have voted the 2nd option on the pole. Would have liked the fluff to have moved on a bit further but I'm happy with the new list. Don't want to repeat what most have said but will mention a few significant things that stand out for me.

I like how i can now field a larger number of skeles for the same points cost and also raise new units of them with raise dead. I will now finally outnumber my brothers empire troops and feel like a respectable horde!

Addition of a master necromancer and his ability to use the lore of vampires is a big thing for me. Means my vampire heroes can Focus on being vampires!

 

[Kuwanger23]

I like how we went from an army that with little options to one with many. I am sure as the months go on people will find the "best" internet lists and there will be a "best" build. But at least most if not all of the book is viable. I also enjoy most of all how we are now a buff faction. re roll hits, wounds, strike first, extra attack, regen stacking, +2 to casting ect ect. Pretty good stuff. I only have one concern as I am new to this edition: Is taking lore of vampires on everyone or most of our casters or even having to take it to make our army work going to hurt us? I mean compare our spell 6 in comparison to that lore of shadow spell. Are we losing out on damage out put? Is that how a lot of people play nowadays? nuke magic? I am not sure. I am sad to see VD get nerfed and buffed at the same time but I think over all it was a move in the right direction. I for one am excited about our new army and can't wait to re collect my vamp counts. Looks in wallet and out pops a moth* Too bad GW didn't make this game cheap to get started into. My friend and I both sold all our armies years ago and now we are just having trouble getting back into it. Also Vamp counts are probably the most expensive army to play being horde and being able to raise them. Which brings me to my next point, fell bats, love them, but don't want to pay $50 for 3 old models that need an update

Over all I think that our book is solid. Not OP at all. Which I am hoping two things, first I hope that the books to follow don't overshadow us via the GW power creep. And second I hope that because we are not visibly OP in any one area as we clearly were in our last to books that we will be competitive in this edition. Because this edition seems to promote throwing lots of dice and removing lots of models and I just hope we can keep up with that. Especially how we can't spam Invocation out as much anymore. But we do get to spread it out now which is nice! I guess only time will tell.