So what do you think of the new book?

[Sception]

Ghouls would not be a no brainer because of our magic. Vigor Mortis works better on grave guard, and while Vanhel's works well on ghouls, there's no guarantee you'll get it. You might not roll the spell. Even if you do, only one of your caster's gets it, so you only have one try per turn. You might not roll well for winds of magic when you need it. You might flub your casting roll. You might get dispelled. There are just too many chances for this effect to fail to materialize. The only spell you're guaranteed access to, and can take on multiple casters, is invocation, which is far better with zombies, and potentially better with skittles.

None of these are anything like the Hoff, or the Helm, or Ghoulkin, or the barrows for that matter - bonuses that you took and then you had - automatic, no question. That kind of bonus one might consider in their points cost. Functionally, ghouls just had vanguard last edition, it might as well have been in their stat block.

But magic? Yeah, you can buff them. But magic can buff anything. Is Vanhel's really any better, or more reliable, on ghouls then Mind Razor is on dark elf spears? No. It's not a benefit you're guaranteed to get, it's not a benefit in excess of what anybody else can do with magic, and it's not worth considering in their base points cost.


I was a strong proponent of ghouls. Even going into the new book, I saw ghouls as necessary, simply because what else in your core is going to help you win combat? But at ten points, ghouls really don't seem to be worth it. Better to dedicate your compulsory core points to zombie tar pits and cheap drop dire wolf speed bumps & war machine hunters, and rely entirely on your special, rare, and character selections to win you the game.

Not that I've given up on ghouls entirely. I'm starting a Blood in the Badlands campaign soon, and one of my armies will be a ghoul heavy strigoi list just to try and prove my past self right and my current self wrong, but at the moment I'm pretty skeptical.

 

[Smacula]

Just got a couple of games in yesterday against Brets and I can say that the new book is excellent in terms of giving you options, but it does force you to make choices. My big winners are definitely the Mortis Engine and Vargheists. Getting +2 to cast on a level 4 makes puts our most powerful casters right near the top. My opponent rolled terrible on a few dispell attempts (4 or 5 on 3 dice, 3 times) at my attempts to raise dead. I was able to create a unit of 9 zombies, and then proceeded to cast IoN 3 additional times so my skeletons, and zombies (+35) increased massively. We all know casting on the bubble is huge, but this takes it to ridiculous levels. As for my games 6 vargheists just murdered 2 trebuchets and stomped all over his back field. They did get popped by lance of 12 knights, but they did their job. My opponent was simply not able to deal with flying monstrous infantry until they were knee deep in his blood.

I know why they did it, but the book really forces you to make HARD choices in every area. All of them, however, are totally playable, you just need to make sure you have good synergy. Also a 25 inch mortis engine explosion is hilarious.

 

[Ghouly]

I cringe everytime GW Releases a new book ever since the abomination that was "beastmen" but Like Orcs and Gobs, I'm ok with this one no huge sweeping changes Necro-lord is back and for some reason Ghoul-kings got a lord choiceo.o., The things I don't like I can easily ignore so for the most part I'm "meh"

 

[jonmark14]

I think that is how many zombies to kill them so that their brain / blood of their strength / aggression of the first sight, that the increase should be increased to show their desperate scramble to meet their cannibalistic hunger and the more they kill more they are hungry and they should not have weapons.skeletons and horrible zombie is worth on the battlefield, but they are not respected and is just a joke.

 

[Arkhan]

I rather like it and look forward to playing a Strigoi army with lots of monsters in it.

I do however hate how most of the bloodlines fluff get swept under the rug in favour of focus on Carstein. The poor Necrarchs are barely mentioned. The fluff about Nagash also seems contradicting in it.

The far worst part about it is the lame cover with the Hilary Clinton vampire.

 

[Fenrir]

Forked over the £25 for the new book yesterday.

Initial thoughts - this is not a product worth £25. When home later and reading the book, put it down to do something else and heard a loud "WHATS THAT? HA HA AHAHA AHAHAHAHA" from the next room. My wife was laughing at the crappy cover artwork and shaking her head in disbelief.

Then I showed her the Blood Angel cover.

 

[Kuwanger23]

Well at least GW made one vampire model that is tolerable. Isabella. Everything else is just meh. She is amazing however. The winged guy is ok and the other chick lord is ok IMO. Everyone else is ugly. But we do have a sweet model line other than that.

 

[Fenrir]

But we do have a sweet model line other than that.

The zombies look woeful in the new book. Terrible

 

[Kuwanger23]

But we do have a sweet model line other than that.

The zombies look woeful in the new book. Terrible

Yeah and so do bat swarms and fell bats. At least you can buy militia men and old empire state troops or even bretonian peasants and convert some really awesome looking zombies. Not much can be done for the bats. And I am not one to leave the company for other models. So I have no real options there.

But the book seems very balanced. Actually might be the first VC book I have ever seen that is not the new OP power creep at the time of its release. I hope this doesn't discourage VC players that are used to having it easy. Things like auto breaking and vanhelsing into combat are gone. Now we actually have to play fantasy and not Psychology hammer.

 

[Ghouly]

The Lord of the Rings line has some nice bats in it

 

[Ohris]

Just one comment on crumbling since everyone seems to be saying its no big deal in this book (or something along those lines). So for those tomb king players that have been "discussing" it. Its still bad when the general dies since we have to roll atleast 1 time crumbling and that 1 time can take some very important units from us.

Mortis engine ld 5
Hexwraiths ld 5
Corpse cart ld5
Fell bats ld3
Spirit host ld4 (usually taken with just 1 now propably)
Bat swarms ld3
Wraiths ld5

Thats a partial list... now roll 2d6 for each and think what you will loose... cant heal them back if they get wiped from that 1 turn of crumbling... average you roll 7 so if we roll even slighty worse we will loose some key units and perhaps the entire game.

Just saying that it can still sting damn hard when the general dies. Sure, it is an improvement but still.


Just love the new book and the way the army is versatile now... Only thing I am finding hard is to find a way to make other than vampire lores fit in my armies...

 

[Kuwanger23]

The Lord of the Rings line has some nice bats in it

I'll have to look into that. Thanks for the tip

 

[Ohris]

The Lord of the Rings line has some nice bats in it

I'll have to look into that. Thanks for the tip

This is also an option from Reaper: http://www.reapermini.com/OnlineStore/bat%20swarm/sku-down/03355

 

[Kuwanger23]

The Lord of the Rings line has some nice bats in it

I'll have to look into that. Thanks for the tip

This is also an option from Reaper: http://www.reapermini.com/OnlineStore/bat%20swarm/sku-down/03355

If those are to scale then I think those are the best. At least from the pick shown there. I will certainly look into it. Thanks again.

 

[Azula]

I've gone through the whole book a few times, and after my initial warmth, I've suddenly grown very cold to the material. I hate what they've done to our magic section, I miss my ethereal vampire, and quite frankly, I feel we've gone crap.

What have they done to my ghouls? My lovely vampire spells? Oh but Bat Swarms are suddenly viable... if you like finecast (though I am aware of non-GW alternatives). My grave guard are going to get pummeled, I've lost half my marching. I'm sure there's a silver lining somewhere, but I'm not seeing it.

I wish I could just meet Phil Kelly and swear at him. First he had the audacity to make Dark Eldar fun and balanced (whilst Matt Ward imba's the Imperium), and now this....

 

[The Dead of Night]

I have played several games now and I am very happy with the new book. It's the first book we've had for a while that hasn't been overpowered or had a stupidly OP unit. On top of that I think almost everything in the book is viable and has a role to play.

I think that we will see competent generals put together clever lists that require clever tactics to play well, and we will see them being competitive. Our main issues will come from pre 8th ed. books which are OP and have easy to play armies, like the WoC.

As more and more books are released and brought in line (eg the WoC in 4th Quarter), we will really start to hit our stride. If GW manage to keep up this excellent book writing, I think we will all be having a lot more fun.

As it stands my record with the new book is quite good. If you can produce a list that works well together and have a solid plan for each unit, you will do well. If you expect to be able to put your GG in front of anything and wipe everything out, you will lose. If you think that you can just pick anything at random, you will lose - and that's a good thing. I for one am extremely happy that there are no no-brainer choices in the book.

While I have to admit to being slightly disappointed in the quality of our magic phase, I think we will see a partial phasing out of items that increase PD and overall casting potential. Which will lead to most armies making pretty serious choices. As it stands we have access to very cheap lvl 4 casters with some very nice versatile spells that compliment our units well.

So far our reduced marching has been easily countered by sensible unit selection and use. If you have a chariot which can't march no matter how close it is to the general, don't put it next to him. If you have vargheists or blood knights put them on the flank. If you have hexwraiths or dogs, consider how far their vanguard will move them and how much you will need the march bubble. If you take 200 zombies because you think ghouls are too expensive, expect to run out of space.

The hardest part of unit selection is the core. I love that all our core units are much more viable than they were (apart from ghouls), but it would be nice to have marauders or even empire halberdiers (Sylvania is part of the empire after all ). I still take a unit of ghouls, 10 points is a bit much, but a unit of ghouls a unit of zombies and 4 units of doggies makes for a great 625 point core. I have punch, versatility and a speed bump.

 

[Sanai]

The biggest strength of our new book however would have to be IoN. With its area of effect, you can essentially heal a huge percentage of your army with one cheap spell, and because it is the signature spell, you can do that with every caster. A good vc magic phase can see you undoing everything your opponent has achieved in the past turn or two.

 

[hornywingythingy]

Used them on Sunday, 4.5k, allied with orcs and goblins vs two ogre armies and an empire army.

Gods, they are brutal, I had annihilated one ogre army by the end of turn three, and was poised for a brutal roll down their battle line. The most useful power was master of the black arts, it earnt us on average 3 extra power dice each magic phase, which accounted for some brutal castings of vanhel, that is obscene on the bubble version, you can stack it now! So what you can't charge? Rerolls to hit and asf off corpse carts means you don't need to. Really brutal cc helped, the vargheists tore apart a giant in cc without taking a wound, hexwraiths killed loads cos there is so little that does magic damage now. And my wraith hero killed a steamtank one wound at a time. All in all this army book does not follow the pattern of reducing the power of the army, it most definatly ups it, I think they will be the tournie favourites, at least until the next book comes out.

 

[sabastionz]

hey all,
i have looked at the book and overall its slightly disappointing, the new things i love, (apart from the coven throne, i might play it for a fun game but i'm not a fan) but its what they have done with the old things that makes my a bit sad :'( .

-black coach, now it is only our magic phase meaning if we have a bad phase or we don't roll any 6s its going to be a while until the black coach is fully buffed (or even to ethereal) . and i know it has gone down in points but 5p is really not worth it.

-the lore, i am split here, i like the new IoN buuuuut (and it is a bit but) they have got rid of my frav spell VDM. no ASF, no charge option. meaning its just a reroll to hit and that's quite bad. (note: i am also happy with the new wind of undeath spell.

-the characters count mannfred my only irritation they have upped my points quite hugely and only slightly improved him

so its okay all together its okay but i'm a bit sad about the old things...

 

[hornywingythingy]

You get the asf off corpse carts mate, its done to keep the cost of the bubble spells affordable.

What's not to like about vhdm? It now can Affect everthing in 12! And you can do it multiple times if you have loremasters.

Thing is manfred needed to go up in points, he got an extra attack, a very useful power, and the sword is very useful now.

 

[Kuwanger23]

I am new to 8th edition. Why could you not cast it multiple times with different casters? can you not roll the same spells? I haven't gotten that far into the rule book yet.

 

[The Dead of Night]

Apart from the signature spell no caster in the same army can have the same spells. That being said one caster could have VDM and another could have the Book of Arkhan. Clever use of this rule means you can make sure you have all the spells you want and you can also ensure you get the best spells on your lvl 4.

 

[hornywingythingy]

You can have the same spell multiple times off loremasters, and since the book has two lore of vampires loremasters, you can randomly roll the spell, and then have it on two quite cheap spec characters.

 

[Sanai]

I think Games Workshop underestimated the power of AoE IoN.... they probably should have made it cost more PD for what it does, especially when boosted.

 

[Kuwanger23]

So I looked it up and asked a few of my friends who play today. If you have a lv 4 and say two lv 2's you can technically have a repeat spell in there. But you are suppose to spread it out until you can't anymore. This is what I was told. Also I watched my friends in a double tournament play today and win. It was 1250 each partner. They had one go combat heavy and the other magic heavy. This is a synopsis of their list (BTW they destroyed everyone they came across).

Ghoul king, other trickster shard, sword of heroes in units make me awesomer (technical name), red fury, Some other stuff I don't remember
Master necro dispel scroll
Konrad (he cleaned out so many units it wasn't even funny lol).
Cairn wraith
lv mecro
lv 1 necro power stone
Mortis engine
30 zombies
30 zombies
xx skellies
xx skellies
10 dire wolves
5 hex wraiths
a few single unit spirit hosts
2 bat swarms
varghulf


Not really sure what else. Probably more hammer characters. I know in their second to last game 1 spirit host tied up a monster and in the last game a bone giant. That's worth the points right there!

At the end of the game my friend looked at me and said exactly what you stated above, IoN is way too good. You pretty much undo whatever damage was caused the turn prior by your opponent. And start with 60 zombies and end with close to 200 at times. But other than that everything else seemed pretty balanced.