Tactical Discussion: Since our core suck...

[hsnyder]

I thought I'd start a thread on this because I've run into it in the few games I've played recently.

Let's face it: our core suck. Even ghouls seem to do no better than just bleed combat res. Fighting dark elf spearmen, empire spearmen, and saurus warriors in three recent games, a block of 30 ghouls just got whittled down, eventually dying to combat res. The lack of a banner and musician just isn't made up for by their killing ability. Especially when you plan to run a horde (tried it in one game), having a musician for swift reform seems essential.

I haven't tried skeletons yet, but in theory they'd do even worse. Though the standard and musician are nice benefits.

In the games I played, even if I could keep my units alive with invocation, it was exceedingly obvious that my vampire lord was the only real threat on the table (terrorghiest ended up having to hit Ld 9/10 units all the time, but still did a bit).

Though there may be some armies who have worse core than we do (maybe), Empire aren't particularly known for being combat machines, and the ghouls just could not beat Empire spearmen.

Anyways, the point wasn't to complain - the point was to start a thread to share ideas on how to circumvent this problem. I thought I'd start off with the following ideas:

- A block of ghouls, with their poison, might be best applied against enemy monsters or high-toughness targets which normally are pretty impervious to core infantry. Perhaps rather than putting a ghoul unit in the center, intending on sticking a lord in with them, they should be deployed to hold down a flank, since it seems that enemy monsters and high toughness low save stuff seems to go there.

- We don't *really* have a solid reliable core infantry choice. Zombies work, because there is no expectation that they'll actually kill anything, but ghouls are pretty bad for 10 points, even if you can regrow them. I haven't tried skeletons.

- Perhaps the poor performance of our core mean that grave guard do have a place in VC lists? Normally, special points are consumed by hexwraiths, black knights, and the like. If the flanks were held down by zombie and ghoul units, instead of putting things like hexwraiths out on the flank, then special points might be able to go in the middle for the main fighting force. Lets face it, hexwraiths are best at hitting cavalry or other models which come in small units and rely on armour saves. Well, a big cheap block of zombies can stop a cavalry charge, and a ghoul unit could probably hold and maybe even kill a monster. We *have* to take the core, so even if it sucks at holding down the flank compared to some other units, maybe we should put it there anyways?

Just some random musings..

 

[Adam_Barrow]

Give a unit of 40-45 Ghouls backed by dub Engines a go. Danse and Hellish Vigour (especially) give you more chances at Poison 6s. 30 Ghouls melt way too fast, and you want to be slinging as many Attacks as you can with that unit.

 

[RarerMonsters]

Let's face it: our core suck. Even ghouls seem to do no better than just bleed combat res.

Our core doesn't suck. It's not elite core, but core doesn't have to be.

Fighting dark elf spearmen, empire spearmen, and saurus warriors in three recent games, a block of 30 ghouls just got whittled down, eventually dying to combat res.

Ghouls are, model for model, strictly better than Empire Spearmen by a wide margin. If you died, it was probably because you're not using them correctly, which is bringing me to my next point...

The lack of a banner and musician just isn't made up for by their killing ability. Especially when you plan to run a horde (tried it in one game), having a musician for swift reform seems essential.

NOTHING in the game, not even Grave Guard or White Lions, will win combat if you can't maneuver it correctly. If you just throw Grave Guard at units and hope that their killing power will win, they'll lose against goblins.

The key to winning at WHFB 8 is this: Don't fight fair.

Core is not there to mass S3 attacks, because that doesn't win combats. If it did, people would take horde blocks of Spearmen.

Core is there to do 3 things:
1. Redirect
2. Kill redirectors
3. Provide Bulk

If your ghouls enter combat, it should either be against a pack of redirectors who have no chance to survive or coming in the flank to provide supporting attacks where they are less vulnerable to return attacks.

T4 won't stop a full frontage assault, but it'll save you from falling to side attacks.

As for Zombies and Skeletons, they provide bulk to support your heroes and hammer units. If a horde of skeletons can absorb hits that would have otherwise gone to a Black Coach or Vampire lord, those 3 skeletons are saving you hundreds of points. You cannot win the game without these support blocks.

In the games I played, even if I could keep my units alive with invocation, it was exceedingly obvious that my vampire lord was the only real threat on the table (terrorghiest ended up having to hit Ld 9/10 units all the time, but still did a bit).

Different smacks for different snacks... massed ghoul attacks will tip the balance against large lightly armored infantry blocks that Tgheists suck against. Tgheist handle 1+ armor/low wound units that ghouls can't handle.

It's about manuevering to create a massively favorable combat.

Though there may be some armies who have worse core than we do (maybe), Empire aren't particularly known for being combat machines, and the ghouls just could not beat Empire spearmen.

You will have to unpack this one for us. How many spearmen? What formation, heroes involved?
On paper, Ghouls are strictly superior to spearmen. I know that reality trumps mathhammer, but if I just walked in saying "my white lions simply couldn't beat gnoblars" I'd expect to have to explain it.

A block of ghouls, with their poison, might be best applied against enemy monsters or high-toughness targets which normally are pretty impervious to core infantry. Perhaps rather than putting a ghoul unit in the center, intending on sticking a lord in with them, they should be deployed to hold down a flank, since it seems that enemy monsters and high toughness low save stuff seems to go there.

This is an excellent use of ghouls, provided the monster doesn't have armor. Still, massing attacks has defeated Iron Daemons and Steam Tanks in my experience.

[qupte]We don't *really* have a solid reliable core infantry choice. Zombies work, because there is no expectation that they'll actually kill anything, but ghouls are pretty bad for 10 points, even if you can regrow them. I haven't tried skeletons.

T4 is fine for Core. 5+ armor is fine for cheap core. You're paying a tax for core but any option is servicable at WHAT you expect them to do.

Perhaps the poor performance of our core mean that grave guard do have a place in VC lists? Normally, special points are consumed by hexwraiths, black knights, and the like. If the flanks were held down by zombie and ghoul units, instead of putting things like hexwraiths out on the flank, then special points might be able to go in the middle for the main fighting force. Lets face it, hexwraiths are best at hitting cavalry or other models which come in small units and rely on armour saves. Well, a big cheap block of zombies can stop a cavalry charge, and a ghoul unit could probably hold and maybe even kill a monster. We *have* to take the core, so even if it sucks at holding down the flank compared to some other units, maybe we should put it there anyways?

Well, yes. GG are elite infantry. They are DEFINITELY there for killing power from infantry.


As for "holding down the flank", that's exceedingly risky given the limitations of the march bubble. You give up too much maneuverability staying on the side with core blocks. Also, given crumble an infantry unit has maybe ONE turn of holding something unsupported before crumbling past the point of no return. If a unit other than summoned zombies gets charged, you better have the critical counter charge in place pronto.


As an additional point: Run narrower frontages. Our core needs ranks and can't afford to take too many attacks. Vamps are all about the long-haul, we can't horde attacks and hope that it ends in one turn.


Also, dire wolves. Cheap, fast, redirecting puppies. Load up on those Fenrisian wolf kits.

 

[hsnyder]

Give a unit of 40-45 Ghouls backed by dub Engines a go. Danse and Hellish Vigour (especially) give you more chances at Poison 6s. 30 Ghouls melt way too fast, and you want to be slinging as many Attacks as you can with that unit.

Thanks, I'll try that, especially the point about running bigger blocks. The double engines and spells is a massive amount of buffing, but perhaps that's what it takes.

Ghouls are, model for model, strictly better than Empire Spearmen by a wide margin. If you died, it was probably because you're not using them correctly, which is bringing me to my next point...

Well, model for model you're right.. However, in my experience, the margin isn't *that* wide.

Actually, some mathhammer
Chance for a spearman to kill a ghoul (per attack): 16.6%
Chance for a ghoul to kill a spearman (per attack): 22.2%

so 16 attacks each side (Both 5 wide, champions on both sides, ghouls have 2 A, spearmen have spears so fight in extra rank):
=2.6 dead ghouls (so 2 or 3)
=3.5 dead spearmen (so 3 or 4)

And the empire guys have a standard and musician...
Could go either way, is my point. And we're 10 points, they're 7.

I think we both know how the mathhammer (and practical experience) goes for dark elf spearmen.. and they're 9 points a model.

Ghouls aren't terrible, they're just not 4 points per model better than spearmen with shields and a full command..

NOTHING in the game, not even Grave Guard or White Lions, will win combat if you can't maneuver it correctly. If you just throw Grave Guard at units and hope that their killing power will win, they'll lose against goblins.

The key to winning at WHFB 8 is this: Don't fight fair.

Core is not there to mass S3 attacks, because that doesn't win combats. If it did, people would take horde blocks of Spearmen.

Core is there to do 3 things:
1. Redirect
2. Kill redirectors
3. Provide Bulk

If your ghouls enter combat, it should either be against a pack of redirectors who have no chance to survive or coming in the flank to provide supporting attacks where they are less vulnerable to return attacks.

T4 won't stop a full frontage assault, but it'll save you from falling to side attacks.

As for Zombies and Skeletons, they provide bulk to support your heroes and hammer units. If a horde of skeletons can absorb hits that would have otherwise gone to a Black Coach or Vampire lord, those 3 skeletons are saving you hundreds of points. You cannot win the game without these support blocks.

These are the sorts of ideas I hoped would arise, thanks for them.
I agree on all points.

I'll add this (maybe not obvious to new players). While the core is there to support hammer units, they shouldn't try to do so in the same fight unless you can smash the target unit really hard. Having zombies in the same combat as something important is a good way to crumble from combat res.

Different smacks for different snacks... massed ghoul attacks will tip the balance against large lightly armored infantry blocks that Tgheists suck against. Tgheist handle 1+ armor/low wound units that ghouls can't handle.

Yes. The part that I personally am having trouble with, given my three games with the 8th ed VCs is what those hammer units are that the ghouls are in to tip the balance in favor of. That was a bad sentence but you probably know what I mean. Throwing ghouls in the front of other units, even core units, results in ties (in the case of empire) or getting stomped (in the case of lizards/DE). The ghoul attacks could tip the balance, if a fair match up for those units were in the front.. The question is, what do we have that is a good match for those units? Other than characters.

It's about manuevering to create a massively favorable combat.

I'm personally struggling to find the nice zone between "fair fight" and "deathstar".

Though there may be some armies who have worse core than we do (maybe), Empire aren't particularly known for being combat machines, and the ghouls just could not beat Empire spearmen.

You will have to unpack this one for us. How many spearmen? What formation, heroes involved?
On paper, Ghouls are strictly superior to spearmen. I know that reality trumps mathhammer, but if I just walked in saying "my white lions simply couldn't beat gnoblars" I'd expect to have to explain it.

I went into that a bit above. The units I'm talking about were 30 spearmen vs 30 ghouls, both units were in ranks of 5. Commands on both sides. No heroes involved (my vampire was busy cannibalizing a different unit, his ghouls fared better :tongue: ). Luck may have been against me a little bit, but it was tie or a loss by 1 for two combat rounds until I got both hellish vigor and vanhels off on the ghouls, then they won by 2.

As pointed to above, the mathhammer doesn't show ghouls and spearmen to be too different quality-wise.
Which would be fine, were it not for the cost difference.

T4 is fine for Core. 5+ armor is fine for cheap core. You're paying a tax for core but any option is servicable at WHAT you expect them to do.

Yes, this. My recent games showed me that I had too high expectations of the ghouls and am trying to figure out:
1 - what expectations I SHOULD have
2 - what to use to actually kill things (again, other than characters)

The three games were pretty close, cause the ghiests and the VL did a huge amount of damage. But it really was them and only them who made it not a loss.


Maneuvering is very important and one of the most important parts of warhammer. As RarerMonsters pointed out very well, manuevering is key. In this thread I hope to learn how other people maneuver our core units to be successful.

Thanks.

 

[NoisyAssassin]

Ghouls really don't want to be in ranks of 5 unless they're being fielded in small units to hunt monsters or hold flanks. If you've got 40+ then horde is the way to go, if less than that 7 wide. Against the spearmen, you'll be getting an additional 1.32 kills per round this way (using your math), which puts it up to 2.6 dead Ghouls vs. 4.8 dead spearmen. Suddenly things are looking a little better. But remember, if your opponent wins combat by 1, you lose a Ghoul. If you win combat by 1, those Spearmen could break and be run down. We pay for reliability. And of course Fear tips the odds hugely if they fail a check.

But in general you are right, our Core isn't there to buzz through the enemy unsupported, even relatively weak enemy Core in an even matchup. Get them a new matchup or throw the odds in your favor!

 

[RarerMonsters]

Ghouls really don't want to be in ranks of 5 unless they're being fielded in small units to hunt monsters or hold flanks. If you've got 40+ then horde is the way to go, if less than that 7 wide. Against the spearmen, you'll be getting an additional 1.32 kills per round this way (using your math), which puts it up to 2.6 dead Ghouls vs. 4.8 dead spearmen. Suddenly things are looking a little better. But remember, if your opponent wins combat by 1, you lose a Ghoul. If you win combat by 1, those Spearmen could break and be run down. We pay for reliability. And of course Fear tips the odds hugely if they fail a check.

But in general you are right, our Core isn't there to buzz through the enemy unsupported, even relatively weak enemy Core in an even matchup. Get them a new matchup or throw the odds in your favor!

Without any kind of armor, ghouls suffer from increased frontage more than they benefit from increased attacks. Massing attacks only matters if you can get them to at least S4 or S3 armor piercing.

Go 6 or 7 at a max, otherwise you'll crumble too fast to recover.
If you want it to be a kill unit, toss in a Vampire.

 

[Adam_Barrow]

Without any kind of armor

He's right about that. Dub Engine 5+ Regen for the win.

 

[Blutsauger]

Without any kind of armor, ghouls suffer from increased frontage more than they benefit from increased attacks. Massing attacks only matters if you can get them to at least S4 or S3 armor piercing.

Go 6 or 7 at a max, otherwise you'll crumble too fast to recover.
If you want it to be a kill unit, toss in a Vampire.

It's not quite that simple since it depends largely on what troops your opponent uses, and what formations he uses those troops in.

For instance, I have a regular High Elf opponent who religiously runs his infantry 6 wide. In that case, the increased frontage can only ever benefit me since it will not impact how many attacks he gets. In fact, if my opponent runs any less than 8 wide, then my formation will make no difference to the number of attacks he gets.

And if I go 7 wide, then the only way he gets more attacks on me is if he runs a Horde, and then we are into a whole other ball park, comparing horde to horde.

 

[Bane]

Ghouls are stout. Run 40+ in a horde. All day, every day.

I was playing Skaven with the Bell the other day and got charged by his Seer on the Bell in a massive (10x10) clanrat unit. You know what Skaven don't like? 20 poisoned attacks on their Seer or their Bell.

Never underestimate Poison. Not even Str 3 poison.

I think our core has its place, as others have said. Remember, we have one distinct advantage by comparison to other armies: ours comes back with even reasonable magic phases. Who cares that zombies are horrible? They are mass that grows back fast. Use them to tie up flankers or to hold another unit in place. Dogs are great for chaff. Need a couple cheap, who-cares drops so you aren't dropping your GG first? Perfect.

I think Skeletons are the only core I don't use. I haven't found the real benefit over zombies. Probably just my meta, though. Very high in WoC, DoC, and other high strength opponents where a 4+/6++ doesn't really do you any good. Give me a t4 ghoul block with the ME support any day.

 

[hsnyder]

The problem with double engines is that you're giving up terrorgheist slots just to make core with marginal killing power tougher. It's great for attrition, but the rest of your list better be full of really good hammers and your opponent better not figure out what you're doing. Not saying it can't work, just that spending over 400 pts on making ghouls tougher isn't the ideal solution for everyone.

As for the frontage thing, its also a matter of rank bonuses and steadfast. High elves get spearmen for less than we get ghouls, and high elf spearmen can chop ghouls all day long. In that situation, I personally would go for the extra ranks just in case a statistical anomaly won me the combat, rather than making it more likely to lose less badly. But tbh if ghouls crashed into the front of a HE spearmen line, with no other support/other factors, I'd basically just be thinking that those spearmen will be there for a while while they kill the ghouls. I dunno if changing formation would actually make a win all that likely. Though on the other hand, the probability that a ghoul kills a HE spearman per attack is the same as that of killing an empire spearman per attack.... so who knows.

Run 40+ in a horde. All day, every day.

I've yet to really try a horde. I did try it once, but they got dwellers'd so lets not use that as an example.

Actually this brings up another point:
- are hordes better vs other hordes or against smaller frontage units? I always thought steadfast would be a problem for hordes of ghouls

 

[Vipoid]

In my first game against the new Dark Elves, I had a block of 40 Ghouls and a Vampire run into a block of DE Corsairs, led by Lokhir Fellheart (I believe they were 6 or 7 wide). He had slightly fewer corsairs than I had ghouls, and his squad was overall less expensive than mine.

What worries me is that I needed to get magic buffs off just to break even. Otherwise, they just wiped the floor with my ghouls.

Honestly, I think I might give up trying to run any of my core as hordes. I feel like I'm just misleading myself into believing they may one day accomplish something.

 

[HeroZero]

Hordes are asking for a unit to bleed CR all over the place. Even 40 str 3 poison attacks with VHDM is a crap shoot on other 400 point core units that in horde formation.
A 400 point for horde embarrasses ghouls.
Face it 5 wide and deep. That's the business. Ghouls may be viable seven wide, but its not great.
Lack of command really hurts too.

 

[RarerMonsters]

I think Skeletons are the only core I don't use. I haven't found the real benefit over zombies. Probably just my meta, though. Very high in WoC, DoC, and other high strength opponents where a 4+/6++ doesn't really do you any good. Give me a t4 ghoul block with the ME support any day.

Magic Banner. If you are running a chaff bunker for a Vampire Lord, the +1 movement from Swiftness will make it the best cheap bunker, and the MR 1 from Liche Bone will keep you safe from Deathsniping.

 

[HeroZero]

Never underestimate how important having a banner and musician can be. The magic banner comes into play frequently as well.

 

[hsnyder]

In my experience, a musician is actually key as well. Its the swift reform..

 

[Ravenheart]

I have had great value from running two blocks of skeletons (5x8) and zombies. I tend to run one flank with infantry and move them straight up the board while my black knights, tg and hexwraiths hit the other in a concerted strike.

I never expect the infantry to do anything more than hold up whatever they run into. I have a Necromancer there to keep numbers up.

 

[HeroZero]

The only reason we even need to bring infantry is to deny steadfast.
Seriously the +3 CR from ranks is always offset by wounds taken. If it wasn't for steadfast I wouldnt bother with core infantry at all.
Zombies just bleed CR too fast to be viable imho.
Ghouls are far too expensive to count and lack command ( don't give me how killy they are, they are not, they need support and that pushes them into extreme pricing for a mediocre unit)
Skeletons are terrible but are the least bad option for fielding units of 40+

Right now my core is
50 Skeletons with Full Command
20 Zombies, STD, Musician
50 Skeletons With Full Command
20 Zombies, STD, Musician


I just don't find DW useful anymore.

 

[Vipoid]

Never underestimate how important having a banner and musician can be. The magic banner comes into play frequently as well.

Yeah, swift reform is incredibly useful - and something you really miss when you don't have it.

Also, banners are nice because, on units that already suffer from poor CR, it's nice not to start with a -1 penalty against virtually everything.

 

[hsnyder]

Thanks for the replies. Good points all around. I'm curious what people are using to actually kill things with. I'm struggling to find the zone in between being fairly weak and playing deathstar.

The only reason we even need to bring infantry is to deny steadfast.
Seriously the +3 CR from ranks is always offset by wounds taken. If it wasn't for steadfast I wouldnt bother with core infantry at all.
Zombies just bleed CR too fast to be viable imho.
Ghouls are far too expensive to count and lack command ( don't give me how killy they are, they are not, they need support and that pushes them into extreme pricing for a mediocre unit)
Skeletons are terrible but are the least bad option for fielding units of 40+

Right now my core is
50 Skeletons with Full Command
20 Zombies, STD, Musician
50 Skeletons With Full Command
20 Zombies, STD, Musician


I just don't find DW useful anymore.

Zombies work as tar pits - I've seen that work really well. The trick is not to get anything important in the same fight.

That looks like a solid line up. I'll give something like that a shot.

 

[HeroZero]

The important thing to remember about zombies is: they are wound counters for your necromancers, getting zombies in any fight is just free points for your.opponent.

 

[idi3ispwn]

I tend to use all of the core in my lists, I think they all have a place! Use I go for zombies as tar pits on the flanks (2 units of 30+) which should last 2-3 combats, while my main units March on past the flanking threats. Ghouls I'm trying something a little bit different with, as a flanking unit just off my main battleline, as a unit of 18, 6 wide for rank bonus denial, not tested fully, but used to fair success vs a beastman list. And skeletons are great bunkers as everyone has said so far. Dire wolves are awesome though, never leave home without some rotting dogs!

 

[hsnyder]

I tend to use all of the core in my lists, I think they all have a place! Use I go for zombies as tar pits on the flanks (2 units of 30+) which should last 2-3 combats, while my main units March on past the flanking threats. Ghouls I'm trying something a little bit different with, as a flanking unit just off my main battleline, as a unit of 18, 6 wide for rank bonus denial, not tested fully, but used to fair success vs a beastman list. And skeletons are great bunkers as everyone has said so far. Dire wolves are awesome though, never leave home without some rotting dogs!

Great to have a new voice on the thread. I'd like to hear more about your ghoul use. It sounds vaguely like what I was proposing in the original post. What do you use to do your hitting with?

 

[idi3ispwn]

Normally a unit of Gg, 7 wide around 28-35 models, or 6 horrors. But the ghouls set up like this also allows you to take on some of the pesky chaff that tend to be in the way. If I need to win a fight, it's another tool in the box, for some easy CR, and to kill 9 models in the flank is not an easy task for most units you should be fighting. A flank charge from the ghouls swings a lot of CR in your favour; a new combat, started on your terms, or even an on going one with a counter charge in the flank by the ghouls should turn it in your favour effectively giving 3-5 CR to you.

 

[hsnyder]

Normally a unit of Gg, 7 wide around 28-35 models, or 6 horrors. But the ghouls set up like this also allows you to take on some of the pesky chaff that tend to be in the way. If I need to win a fight, it's another tool in the box, for some easy CR, and to kill 9 models in the flank is not an easy task for most units you should be fighting. A flank charge from the ghouls swings a lot of CR in your favour; a new combat, started on your terms, or even an on going one with a counter charge in the flank by the ghouls should turn it in your favour effectively giving 3-5 CR to you.

Sounds good. I've not tried horrors yet. I know they're tough, but I did not know they were good at dishing out pain.

 

[idi3ispwn]

All they are is t5 ogres with a 5+ regen not a lot to write home about, but against the right target can do a lot of damage, which is overall the point, all of the VC units have their place, you just need to find out what it's best role is and how to use it to its fullest.