Tactical Discussion: Since our core suck...
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Ill sometimes run a few units of only 20 zombies and after a turn or two of IoN-ing them, they can be almost 40 strong or more. Chariots and monsters are more than welcome to try to kill off a unit like that. In the mean time, I can either scream away those tied up units, or deal with the unsupported bulk of my opponents army. Our army can make great synergy between units. If I chaff up (and I mean like deep zombie rank chaff) some enemy flanking units, I can use a hero supported block to take down the enemies main force, and what better way to wittle down the enemy's best unit than use a TG in tandem with my killing block?
Not into TGs? I think the ME turns our army into the most ridiculously stubborn army for opponents to wipe out. Double ME doubles that toughness, making zombie chaff units frustratingly good at what they do. Plus the option for additional casting power is also great. This also turns ghouls into very resilient and strong blocks to be led by a hero.
Not into ANY of our rares? You can use CHs, BKs or GG as hardy blocks to tangle with enemy core and specials. Use vargs to clean up back fields and sniff out wizards.
Those are all examples of things I use to really give the punch with VCs. But honestly our core works well, zombies can be bought or simply raised and then extended to hold down units that are going to team up against yours. Wolves can be used as speed bumps or sometimes I use them to hunt warmachines and the like; similar to vargheists except weaker, cheaper and core...er. Skeletons are my bread and butter for putting heroes in. Ghouls are a better choice than skeletons for killing power, but I also sometimes use small, independent units of 10-20 ghouls as skirmisher destroyers. Non-combat units don't stand a chance against ghouls.
Our core is good, you just can't throw it against most things standalone and expect them to win. If my core goes in unsupported, then the target is either weak, vulnerable (to ghouls mostly), or is a unit that I expect to be teaming up with other units against mine.
Not into TGs? I think the ME turns our army into the most ridiculously stubborn army for opponents to wipe out. Double ME doubles that toughness, making zombie chaff units frustratingly good at what they do. Plus the option for additional casting power is also great. This also turns ghouls into very resilient and strong blocks to be led by a hero.
Not into ANY of our rares? You can use CHs, BKs or GG as hardy blocks to tangle with enemy core and specials. Use vargs to clean up back fields and sniff out wizards.
Those are all examples of things I use to really give the punch with VCs. But honestly our core works well, zombies can be bought or simply raised and then extended to hold down units that are going to team up against yours. Wolves can be used as speed bumps or sometimes I use them to hunt warmachines and the like; similar to vargheists except weaker, cheaper and core...er. Skeletons are my bread and butter for putting heroes in. Ghouls are a better choice than skeletons for killing power, but I also sometimes use small, independent units of 10-20 ghouls as skirmisher destroyers. Non-combat units don't stand a chance against ghouls.
Our core is good, you just can't throw it against most things standalone and expect them to win. If my core goes in unsupported, then the target is either weak, vulnerable (to ghouls mostly), or is a unit that I expect to be teaming up with other units against mine.
Most of that is true, but its a criminal shame it takes 460 points of support to make our "tar pits" viable enough to last more than 3 combat phases...
I still stick by that core is to deliver characters and bunker mages.
Allow other hitters to hit, allow the core to deny steadfast.
I still stick by that core is to deliver characters and bunker mages.
Allow other hitters to hit, allow the core to deny steadfast.
hsnyder said:
Well, if units that hit hard are frowned upon in your meta, then it's going to be hard to find any units that hit hard.
Black knights with two Vampires in maybe?
Blutsauger said:
That wasn't quite what I meant, but I'm sure you know that. It's about finding the right balance in this meta, not about being deliberately soft. But again, I'm sure you know what I meant.
Blutsauger said:
Actually that does make a bit of a difference - that's probably 200 fewer points in that unit. A hard-hitting unit with one vamp in it would be ideal, but I don't see it.
Right now the heavy hammer unit
Vamp on horse, Red Fury blah Blah
WK on horse, Nightshroud, GW, BSB
10 BK, FC, Banner of Barrows
Other "hammers"
3 Vargulfs
Both Skeleton buses have
Vamp or Vamp Lord to add consistant kills.
Vamp on horse, Red Fury blah Blah
WK on horse, Nightshroud, GW, BSB
10 BK, FC, Banner of Barrows
Other "hammers"
3 Vargulfs
Both Skeleton buses have
Vamp or Vamp Lord to add consistant kills.
hsnyder said:
Yes, I do know what you meant but at the same time the fact that you have to ask "Since our core suck so much, what do we use to kill stuff with?" validates my suggestion. Our core suck, and they suck a lot more than other armies core units. We need units like the Black Knight bus just to break even, and if your meta discourages using them then it pretty much just discourages Vampire Counts altogether. Because the only way to offset the very poor abilities of our core is to have some very killy models somewhere else. It doesn't have to be a bus, you can use TGs or Blood Knights or just bunker your Vamps inside the infantry, but you need those heavy hitters.
A BK bus isn't that powerful, despite being a deathstar unit, because it is susceptible to shooting, needs to be timed right, will bounce of certain enemy units and is the only (and obviously so) valuable target in the army. It's power is offset by the frailty of the rest of the force. It's a solid build, don't get me wrong, but you still need to know what you're doing with it.
Blutsauger said:
Your suggestion was totally valid. I didn't mean to imply otherwise.
Blutsauger said:
Agreed. What I was meaning to ask was really this:
what have you guys used as "hammer units" with some success that don't put all the eggs in one basket. That's really what I'm getting at - having multiple threats on the board to compensate for the weak core, like you're saying.
As examples, your TG, blood knight suggestions, and HeroZero's 3 varghulf suggestion are good ones. 2 varghulfs and a TG fit into a 2500 pt army alongside 30 graveguard with a vamp and wight king... as an example. I'm interested in those sorts of options, more than in options which put 1000 points into a single unit. Personally, that is. The black knight bus, and double ghiest strategies are good, I'm just interested in hearing other suggestions.
Blutsauger said:
This is the other reason that I'm personally interested in other army builds that people have had success with (less eggs-in-one-basket-y)
I assure you, 3 Varghulfs end a lot of arguments. Run them together, they do a disgusting amount of damage in multiple. One is just sad however.
Two is asking for cannons to kill one and make sad.
Three ensures 2 hit a target.
People get hung up on dual tgheists ignoring a heavy hitter in CC.
Two is asking for cannons to kill one and make sad.
Three ensures 2 hit a target.
People get hung up on dual tgheists ignoring a heavy hitter in CC.
Bear in mind that if you have your Varghulfs in close combat and lose by 4, all of them will die and it's game over. Vargs are ok, but I wouldn't use them for taking on enemy combat units, except under the most favourable conditions or in the more dire of circumstances.
It's about target priority. If you're engaging elite combat troops with fast monsters that is a tactical error.
Varghulfs into a poorly armored unit like emp halberds in the flank, oh god yes.
Varghulfs into a poorly armored unit like emp halberds in the flank, oh god yes.
HeroZero said:
All well and good, but if the only heavy hitters in your army are those Varghulfs, what are you going to use to engage those elite combat troops?
hsnyder said:
A small unit of Spearmen maybe, but I'd be wary of Halberdiers or Swordsmen, and steer well clear of Greatswords or Flagellants. Which is a problem when you're talking about the heavy hitters in your list.
Yeah. Though, blood knights might not really fare all that much better. 2 vargs costs only slightly more than 5 blood knights with a command, and I think the damage output vs greatswords, chaos warriors, etc, would be similar.
Heck, maybe terrorghiests or grave guard with a vamp are our best hammers without going deathstar
Heck, maybe terrorghiests or grave guard with a vamp are our best hammers without going deathstar
hsnyder said:
TGs definitely are. They don't care how much you lose the combat by, because they're not in the combat. Grave Guard are ok, but can find themselves in trouble if you're not very careful with them. This is why most competitive lists are either dual TG or BK bus, or some combination.
If you want to avoid that kind of competitive build, then your army will suffer as a result. Not to say you can't still win games, but you'll struggle more.
You can get some mileage out of dual ME and Crypt Horror blocks, but you run into the same problem of having lots of anvils, but no hammers.
Typically a Vamp Lord in a large unit of skeletons does quite well because, while the skeletons just bleed CR the Vampire is dropping enemy models by the dozen in each combat round. The problem is that it doesn't have the mobility of the BK bus and your lord doesn't get the extra protection from being on a barded steed which means you have to buy more protective gear, which means less killing power. Since he has to stand around for multiple combat rounds killing enemy dudes, he's vulnerable to the 4+ enemy models that will attack him each round.
Varghulfs are by far the only hitter available, I just pointed them out because they are overlooked.
Much like core, every single unit needs a character to up those kills some how. We are characters dependant. It's the truth.
Much like core, every single unit needs a character to up those kills some how. We are characters dependant. It's the truth.