Tactical Discussion: Since our core suck...

[hsnyder]

In an army where we will try to use infantry to win the game (probably not tournament-level competitive), I see this being effective:

1 block of skeletons + lord, possibly with wraith or WK too
1 block of graveguard + wight kings or baby blender

We could then spend the rest of the core points on dogs, and just enough zombie to to keep the other two units from being flank charged.

On a different note, Intrigued by your zombies + lots of dogs idea, what about fielding bigger units of dogs (15?) and trying to actually do some light damage with them?

 

[fishdog]

from Vipoid: "How many blocks are we talking about here?"

This's a really good question! Also it's one to which I've no idea; I've neither the experience nor have I pushed the Theoryhammer far enough to try to predict my opponents army choices ('cause that seems dumb). But how many skel (or Ghoul) blocks should be taken??? How many zomb blocks are appropriate???

I'd think that 1 chunk o' skels'd be good as a VL delivery (also will do the WK w/ Nightshroud thing), then the other core should be dogs and zombs. This minimizes the character reqs and frees pts for mobile killers!

On which note, again assuming Empire Swordsmen as the target, looking at avg wnds for various Hammers:

VL Blender: ..............4.993
MSU Vargheists: .....6.249
Vargulf: ................5.517
MSU Blood Knights: ..5.558

Note that these numbers include Stomp and T-Stomp; and that if I ever calculate the variance, we'd see that the VL and Vargulf can swing widely whereas the v'gsts and Bludnites will be pretty consistent.

 

[HeroZero]

Hsynder said "On a different note, Intrigued by your zombies + lots of dogs idea, what about fielding bigger units of dogs (15?) and trying to actually do some light damage with them?"

If you are fielding Dogs in numbers (50)
It wouldn't be a terrible idea to go
2x10
5x5

The smaller units would be your dog darts, while the bigger units for disrupting flanks.

The zombies would just hang in back and gleefully keep your necromancers bunkered.

The rest of that army would have to take advantage of m9 dogs everywhere.

I forsee it looking a lot like
VL blender lord on barded nightmare with creatures of night, BoA, SoM, ToP, DH
Master necro Lvl 4, DS
WK with shroud, GW, horse
Necromancer, CB.

2x30 Zombies
2x10 Wolves
6x5 Wolves

10 BK, FC, BoB
2x3 Varg
2x 2 FB
2x1 Spirit host

2x Terrorgheist

 

[hsnyder]

That looks like a solid list Hero. And crap, that would be scary to face. I still don't love the black knight bus thing, but it certainly looks effective!

Also, consider this for bunkering:

10 skeletons, full command, 3 wide. The necro can't displace a command member, so he goes in the second rank.
It makes you immune to conga line assassins, and similar shenanigans. If you get charged by something which is actually good, you're going to die anyways, even with a zombie bunker with a rank bonus.

 

[HeroZero]

The 3 wide unit isn't terrible, but does screw up your LoS. Which may/may not be an issue, also its pretty meh tactically
Barring the silly Beasts of nurgle /vargs most back line chargers actually cant actually handle ranked up zeds due to static rez. So they make great bunkers. Besides they are exceptional on holding on to wounds for warmachines that are targeting the unit.

If you don't like the BK bus, I'm sorry, its one of the only effective hammers we got.

 

[fishdog]

Was researching away, and came across the following, it reads like Sun Tzu of VC... Moon Tzu?
https://www.vampirecounts.net/Thread-Basic-Vampire-Counts-tactics

A very good pt raised was:
"2) You have many sacrificial units. You need to use them to generate opportunities for your other units to get involved in combats they can win. Use them to force charges, limit movement and force the opponent to fight on your terms." -credit to Ether Dude

That said (and necro'ing hsnyder's earlier q), what hammers do we have (other than the BK bus)?

More specifically, what hammers do you take in a list? 1 BK bus and nothing else? 5 groups of MSU Vargeists???

 

[Vipoid]

Usually 2 blocks.of 50 skeletons.
Even two baby blenders is hitting that tipping point of prohibitive costs

Really?

Two hero vampires doesn't seem that expensive. Hell, you could have just one and a vampire lord in the other.

I despise the ME, and its ilk for throwing more good points at bad problem. I refuse to invest more points to make them more durable ( you could just buy more bodies which is far.more effective) I also live in a cannon heavy environment too.

I completely disagree that more bodies is always more effective. The thing is, every time you save a model in combat with a regen save, you're effectively saving two models - because you'll also be losing one fewer model to CR. Hell, if you make enough saves, you might even win combat.

Also, I just don't see how Mortis Engines are throwing good points after bad - especially when the alternative is buying more bad core stuff. I mean, in addition to giving your core units regenerate, they can also:

- Improve the saves of a SGK to 4+
- Give vampire and WK heroes a 5+ or 6+ save (even 4+ if they have seed of rebirth) - which really helps them survive
- Improve the survivability of more useful units like GG and Crypt Horrors
- Scream into a combat (not usually amazing, but every little helps)
- Hurt nearby enemy units (as above really)
- Improve your magic phase considerably (The bonus from blasphemous tome is pretty damn good - especially if you spam Lv2s)
- The Mortis Engine itself if pretty durable and can do a bit of damage in combat if the opportunity arises (I wouldn't throw it into any combat, but it's still a useful option to have. Also...)
- If it is low on wounds, you can treat it as a bomb and just ram it into the enemy army.

Saying that though, I can understand why you might be reluctant to field them in a cannon-heavy environment. Although, in that case, what do you take (if anything) as rare choices? I ask because the Mortis Engine seems like one of the more resilient options against cannons - with its relatively small base, 5 wounds and 4+ regenerate.

 

[Thindol]

Skeletons can take a banner of up to 25pts. Warbanners are 25pts. Check yer book again lad.

Warbanners are 35pts.

OK. I just checked my book. I eat my words on that...sorry!

I tried the ghoul fight again. Again the ghouls won. I guess it's just my rolling but I've never had a bad match up for them yet.

 

[benfm]

I don't know about other people by my experience with Ghouls has been pretty good.
I usually run a block of 40 in Horde. I usually also run an ME, so I guess with the 6+ regen they are pretty tough for Core.

However I have generally found that they can pile on huge amounts of wounds against low armour units. I've seen a horde with no character rout the main Ogre block with massive numbers of attacks with poison. To be fair I augment my horde with rerolls to hit and wounds all the time so they can get pretty ridiculous if those buffs land.

I've never used Skeletons and I only have enough Zombies to hide my Necro's in so I've never used them for redirection.

But as far as my Ghouls go - I think they do a pretty good job...

 

[hsnyder]

who are your main opponents, if i may ask? Do you find a horde hard to maneuver without a musician?

 

[benfm]

who are your main opponents, if i may ask? Do you find a horde hard to maneuver without a musician?

Usually my opponents are Ogres, High Elves, Orcs & Goblins and Empire.
I have to agree though - maneuverability with a Ghoul horde isn't that great - I usually try and line them up so they are directly opposite the unit I want to slam them against...

 

[hsnyder]

Most of my games these days seem to be against dark elves and empire, with the occasional wood elf and lizardman list thrown in.

Against the high elves specifically, don't you find that your ghouls just get flayed?

Ogres seem like the perfect targets for ghouls actually, similar for orcs, where the ghouls actually go first and the opponents aren't rerolling everything all day.

 

[benfm]

Most of my games these days seem to be against dark elves and empire, with the occasional wood elf and lizardman list thrown in.

Against the high elves specifically, don't you find that your ghouls just get flayed?

Ogres seem like the perfect targets for ghouls actually, similar for orcs, where the ghouls actually go first and the opponents aren't rerolling everything all day.

yeah the ghouls are a great match up against Ogres. Its almost embarrassing if you can land either or both of our rerolls buffs on the pack - the number wounds you can do with 30+ attacks with both augments is just insane.

High Elves can be a bit dicey, I will usually have a Vampire Hero or Lord depending on taste in there with them to increase my CR but he doesn't really run large infantry blocks so even if I'm losing a bit he doesn't outlast my unit.

 

[hsnyder]

Meanwhile the ghoul unit somehow not getting flanked and torn to shreds I guess... dark elves...... :|

 

[Lord Astaroth]

I used to field zombies in a block of 60 to just tarpit against units, but then I thought I'd change it up and fielded 3 units of 20 with a necromancer armed with staff of damnation in one of them. Once they were charged I used the other two units to flank them forfieting the supporting attacks, then using the staff of damnation on the surrounding zombies. Even at ws and I 1 that many attacks can do well. But I'd still say having a large tarpit is more effective as the zombies are easy to raise and will just stay there, when I use them their purpose is to stay there until my more elite killy units can get around to that unit

 

[MadLarkin]

I usually use a blender vamp, blood knights and terrorgheist as my constants to do my killing.

I've also been running 2 units of hex wraiths and 5 cairn wraiths as well.

 

[hsnyder]

MadLarkin, Who are your usual opponents? Which armies does this work better/worse against in your experience?

 

[Sanai]

Honestly I feel that VC core are some of the best in the game. Everyone complains about losing a few skeletons to crumbling, meanwhile that poor empire chap on the next table has his state troops lose a combat 3-0 and the remaining 37 guys flee and get wiped out in pursuit.

 

[Vipoid]

Honestly I feel that VC core are some of the best in the game. Everyone complains about losing a few skeletons to crumbling, meanwhile that poor empire chap on the next table has his state troops lose a combat 3-0 and the remaining 37 guys flee and get wiped out in pursuit.

You mean those 37 empire guys who are generally Steadfast on Ld10 with a BSB reroll? So, 99% of the time they lose absolutely nothing when they lose combat.

Yeah, they have it real tough...

Regardless, Empire core also includes Halberdiers (S4 core for the cost of 2 zombies is hardly bad), and knights with 1+ saves.

 

[Sanai]

I have seen far more than 1% of combats end with one side running away and getting eaten in pursuit. Whatever the statistics may be in theory, in practice about 70% of combats I have seen ended with one side running away.

Games with VC in them are the only games I have seen where no units ran away. In battles where both sides are regular mortals (ie not immune to psych) someone always runs.

edit: the only core that I feel trumps VC core are the aforementioned empire knights, warriors of chaos, lizardmen, ogres & stormvermin. People make the mistake of individually comparing the core units outside of the context of the army- VC core would be terrible if it was just skeletons & ghouls. But it isn't- its skeletons & ghouls being used to hold the line while 2 necros spam IoN and a unit of Vargheists or Blood Knights flank charges the enemy engaging the skeletons/ghouls.

 

[hsnyder]

I'm with vipoid on this one, I haven't seen a steadfast unit in BSB range break.

 

[DominicJ]

I'm amazed how you all manage to keep every unit in BSB range

 

[Vipoid]

I'm amazed how you all manage to keep every unit in BSB range

Same way we manage to keep all our units in our general's range.

 

[hsnyder]

Its more just like... all of the units which a general NEEDS to hold can be in range.

 

[Blutsauger]

VC core would be terrible if it was just skeletons & ghouls. But it isn't- its skeletons & ghouls being used to hold the line while 2 necros spam IoN and a unit of Vargheists or Blood Knights flank charges the enemy engaging the skeletons/ghouls.

And then those Vargheists or Blood Knights get wiped out due to crumble.

I mean, that's like the first rule of playing with Vampire Counts, is that you never engage the enemy with your core AND your elites/rares at the same time. It's a surefire way to have your expensive units pop.

And while not every unit is steadfast/stubborn on LD10 with a BSB, all the units that matter are, because that's where a good player puts his BSB and General; where they're needed.