There are some entries in unit entry that state "This is an unusual attack". Let me see if I can pull you up a few of them, hard to do from memory.
Terrorghiest shriek in close combat
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robtion said:@Bigbadbat: AgreedHowever it IS poorly written. Thus all the confusion.
That's the rub. I think of all the new books written, ours has the most ambiguity. Very disappointed in Phil. Death Shriek, IoN as it applies to characters...Blood Knights etc. Let us not forget the stupid Dark Acolyte power. The list just goes on. I think the reason we don't have a FAQ yet, is that it will be voluminous. Phil or someone else must of realized belatedly what a terrible job was done on core rules.
Well how it looks right now maybe GW considers us their crown jewel and that is why we do not have our FAQ:slapface:
Also I was at GEG until Midnight Yorga.... You should of stopped by
Also I was at GEG until Midnight Yorga.... You should of stopped by
Johnny-Crass said:Also I was at GEG until Midnight Yorga.... You should of stopped by
Dude, I was quite upfront that I couldn't. I come from Oakdale. Soon as the appointment was over I rushed south to meet my wife for dinner at Tahoe Joe's. Best clam chowder around!
I thought about coming up just to say hello and meet face to face but I would have hit all that nssty Friday I-80 traffic. I had only enough time to visit the hobby store across the street from the restaurant. Picked up another cannon for my son's Xmas army. I bought out our local Dwarf Player thus removing a scarey army from our meta. Nobody else plays Dwarves. Ah...the evil schemer that I am. :devil2:Come to Krier's Comics in Modesto this Sunday. 2500 point Tourney. No comp rules except no special characters. You can meet me and my bunch.
I'll be playing WoC again.
Yeah I know I enjoy giving you a hard time. You missed me tabling a Dwarf player giving up no VP's and then getting tabled by the dastardly ratmen.
Anywho back on topic, does anyone else need this cleared up for them?
Anywho back on topic, does anyone else need this cleared up for them?
Vengeance Crusader
Grave Guard
Yeah, that's one downside to being undead. You can't do anything but accept a given charge.
I've cleared this all up with my gaming group. They're not terribly happy with it since I've been fielding two terrogheists, but the rules are the rules.
I've cleared this all up with my gaming group. They're not terribly happy with it since I've been fielding two terrogheists, but the rules are the rules.
I get some tears from people too, but they generally accept it. I mean, I'm like... Read it. They say that it's probably not how it was intended. I say probably not, but that's how it works.
Then we all have a good game. We laugh and smile and cry together. Good times.
Then we all have a good game. We laugh and smile and cry together. Good times.
kris_kapsner
Zombie
I just bought the VC book this week. Is mine different from yours somehow?
Here's what mine says:
"A Death Shriek is a special attack that can be used against a single unit in the Shooting phase, even if the Terrorgheist has marched, charged, or is engaged in close combat. The attack has a range of 8" and needs line of sight to its target. If the Terrorgheist is engaged in combat, its Death Shriek may target a unit in base contact."
Is that what everyone's book says? If so, how is that ambiguous about whether or not it can do this in close combat?
Here's what mine says:
"A Death Shriek is a special attack that can be used against a single unit in the Shooting phase, even if the Terrorgheist has marched, charged, or is engaged in close combat. The attack has a range of 8" and needs line of sight to its target. If the Terrorgheist is engaged in combat, its Death Shriek may target a unit in base contact."
Is that what everyone's book says? If so, how is that ambiguous about whether or not it can do this in close combat?
The key is it can be used in close combats the ghiest is NOT involved in. And it is so because of it being a special attack with prewritten targeting restrictions
Tamodan Varison
Grave Guard
Can't the same logic be used to argue that you could use the Shriek in your opponent's shooting phase as well? It doesn't stipulate in the description that it's your shooting phase in which the Shriek it's used. that, too, is only stipulated in the general shooting rules. I personally find that even though the wording is ambiguous and not clear, it's nowhere near as clear as the ethereal/vampiric raising thing. There it is perhaps unwanted, but you can't argue with it. here, there's argumentation possible. I wouldn't use it in combat. But since it's unclear, everyone will do as pleases him ;-)
Vengeance Crusader
Grave Guard
kris_kapsner
Zombie
Is there any consensus here?
This seems like a very important thing to know one way or another. I'm new to VC. How do most people play the shriek into a combat that the terrorgheist is not partaking?
This seems like a very important thing to know one way or another. I'm new to VC. How do most people play the shriek into a combat that the terrorgheist is not partaking?
kris_kapsner said:
The general consensus is that we would like to be able to do so. When it comes to convincing your opponent, there is an argument saying that since it's a "special attack", ALL it's restrictions are found under the description of the ability in the VC book, and therefore it ignores the rules for shooting, even though it is used in the shooting phase.
I find this argument problematic, because I haven't seen any hard evidence describing what a "special attack" is, or how it works. It might be in an FAQ though, I don't have one lying around.
A different argument (and one that I like better) is that the rulebook tells us how to resolve "unusual attacks" (page 42). I think it is fair to say that Death Shriek is an unusual attack. We're told that unusual attacks are resolved using steps 4-6 of the shooting rules, and since the restriction that we must target an unengaged enemy is found in step 2 of the shooting rules, Death Shriek is ONLY bound by the targeting restrictions described in its entry in the VC book.
That is the best I can do as far as a convincing argument goes. Johnny-Crass has been the main proponent for the "it's a special attack" argument, so he might be able to explain that better than me
The shriek is not a shooting attack. If it was a shooting attack it would have been classified as such just as any other shooting attack.
Warhammer is full of non-shooting special abilities that can harm into close combat. The shriek is just one of them. There is simply no precedence for special abilities being unable to harm units in close combat, as some kind of unwritten rule. Just one of these examples is the Doomwheel Zaaap! that btw also goes off in the shooting phase. You could also consider a mortis engine exploding in the shooting phase.
And no, I don't believe at all it's the same as saying that "you could use the Shriek in your opponent's shooting phase". "The Turn" chapter explains that you take actions in your own turn, so no, its not the same thing.
I don't see anything in the rules that indicate that shrieking into close combat would be illegal. The strongest argument I have seen in that direction is that "The rule is confusing". - But maybe thats a sign that you are trying to read it the wrong way.
Warhammer is full of non-shooting special abilities that can harm into close combat. The shriek is just one of them. There is simply no precedence for special abilities being unable to harm units in close combat, as some kind of unwritten rule. Just one of these examples is the Doomwheel Zaaap! that btw also goes off in the shooting phase. You could also consider a mortis engine exploding in the shooting phase.
And no, I don't believe at all it's the same as saying that "you could use the Shriek in your opponent's shooting phase". "The Turn" chapter explains that you take actions in your own turn, so no, its not the same thing.
I don't see anything in the rules that indicate that shrieking into close combat would be illegal. The strongest argument I have seen in that direction is that "The rule is confusing". - But maybe thats a sign that you are trying to read it the wrong way.
Smogg said:
But there isn't anything that specifically tells us that the Shriek can indeed be used into combat. I am still doubting that I'll be able to convince an opponent that my TG can Shriek into combat, just by telling him that there's no rule saying that it can't.
That is exactly why it CAN. It is a special attack made in your shooting phase. That means it follows only the rules for being a special attack, thus only the restrictions LISTED in its profile.
Banshees ghostly howl in 6th edition
"the ghostly howl of a banshee is used in the shooting phase. A banshee may use it even in the turn she has declared a charge or marchedand even when engaged in close combat, but in this case she can howö only against one of the enemy units she is fighting (the howl will affect only the target unit, even in multiple fight). The attack has a range of 8". The banshee can target any one unit within this range (even characters that are on their own that normally could not be targeted by shooting)
the 6th edition rule book had the any target bolded so you could target any unit...
"the ghostly howl of a banshee is used in the shooting phase. A banshee may use it even in the turn she has declared a charge or marchedand even when engaged in close combat, but in this case she can howö only against one of the enemy units she is fighting (the howl will affect only the target unit, even in multiple fight). The attack has a range of 8". The banshee can target any one unit within this range (even characters that are on their own that normally could not be targeted by shooting)
the 6th edition rule book had the any target bolded so you could target any unit...
I don't have my book around, but I just remembered something:
part of the text says something like "if the TG is engaged in close combat it can ONLY scream at a Unit in b2b"
If what I remember is true, then that word means he is normally allowed to scream to any unit when he is not in CC. I could be wrong though. Can anyone confirm this?
part of the text says something like "if the TG is engaged in close combat it can ONLY scream at a Unit in b2b"
If what I remember is true, then that word means he is normally allowed to scream to any unit when he is not in CC. I could be wrong though. Can anyone confirm this?
Terrorgheist:
"If the terrorgheist is engaged in combat, its Death Shriek may target a unit in base contact"
Tomb Banshee:
"If the tomb banshee is engaged in combat, her Ghostly Howl can only target an enemy unit in base contact"
The permission for the Terrorgheist to scriek out of close combat is prolly based on its awesome size allowing it to easily see over whoever it's engaged with.
Both cases though are not really relevant to wether they can target into close combat they are not themselves part of. Here it's the "Can be used against a single unit" that qualify any single unit as a legitimate target.
"If the terrorgheist is engaged in combat, its Death Shriek may target a unit in base contact"
Tomb Banshee:
"If the tomb banshee is engaged in combat, her Ghostly Howl can only target an enemy unit in base contact"
The permission for the Terrorgheist to scriek out of close combat is prolly based on its awesome size allowing it to easily see over whoever it's engaged with.
Both cases though are not really relevant to wether they can target into close combat they are not themselves part of. Here it's the "Can be used against a single unit" that qualify any single unit as a legitimate target.
Yeah, the thing is:
No one is allowed to shoot (normal shots) into close combat. Not even against enemies they are fighting themselves (like.. no point blank shooting). Think of it as Magic Missiles.
No one is allowed to shoot (again, normal shots) elsewhere while in close combat. Like Direct Damage spells, for example.
Then, both the Shriek and Howl say something like "may target..." which resembles more like how they manage Hexes (I know, it's not the same system.. but now that I see it, it does make some sense! haha)
Ok, carrying on, those two words add a whole different meaning to the standard shooting rules, so one can only ask. Why?
No one is allowed to shoot (normal shots) into close combat. Not even against enemies they are fighting themselves (like.. no point blank shooting). Think of it as Magic Missiles.
No one is allowed to shoot (again, normal shots) elsewhere while in close combat. Like Direct Damage spells, for example.
Then, both the Shriek and Howl say something like "may target..." which resembles more like how they manage Hexes (I know, it's not the same system.. but now that I see it, it does make some sense! haha)
Ok, carrying on, those two words add a whole different meaning to the standard shooting rules, so one can only ask. Why?
"A Death Shriek is a special attack that can be used against a single unit in the Shooting phase, even if the Terrorgheist has marched, charged, or is engaged in close combat. The attack has a range of 8" and needs line of sight to its target. If the Terrorgheist is engaged in combat, its Death Shriek may target a unit in base contact."
This is simple. As already stated as this is a special attack all its rules are presented in the army book.
The sentence that confuses players "If the Terrorgheist is engaged in combat, its Death Shriek may target a unit in base contact" is used to remove the line of sight requirement so that you may attack units that charge you from behind. It does not stop you from targeting units outside that combat because it has no restriction.
The only restrictions are.
1. within 8
2. line of sight or engaged with unit
If you meet the conditions presented in 1. and 2. expect to be a possible target.
This is simple. As already stated as this is a special attack all its rules are presented in the army book.
The sentence that confuses players "If the Terrorgheist is engaged in combat, its Death Shriek may target a unit in base contact" is used to remove the line of sight requirement so that you may attack units that charge you from behind. It does not stop you from targeting units outside that combat because it has no restriction.
The only restrictions are.
1. within 8
2. line of sight or engaged with unit
If you meet the conditions presented in 1. and 2. expect to be a possible target.
@Demian: I'm pretty sure you can throw direct damage spells while in combat at other units (who aren't in combat).