The Black Coach will be too awesome unless nerfed in next edition

[loquar]

If you had the coach then you used to keep it by the casters early on until it was powered up, seriously, you did didnt you????

As much as you guys try as prove otherwise it is not better than it was

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

In my opinion it has improved:

You no longer need to keep it near you casters
You don't even need a caster based army. You can now have a combat orientated force but still generate 12PD
I assume you did not have it stood next the enemies casters as well, well not at the start of the game at least. This means over 1 gamer turn you should have access to average 14PD (hopefully more).
Finally lets not forget the most important, not more S7 autokill. With its 4+ ward it should prove pretty durable.

 

[loquar]

Agreed the Str 7 thing is a massive improvement, my point was only about the dice

Im really struggling to find a viable tournament build for the VC, so much is taken away and so little improved. The coach is one of the few improvements, albeit a small one

 

[chris_havoc]

As everyone has said loquar the fact that you don't have to squash all your casters into one area to benefit from the Evocation of Death special rule is a big advantage tactically as you can now play combat or magic intensive without having to worry where it is. This means that the number of dice do change because for those of us that played with 8-10 PD that now gain a hard-hitting support unit that benefits from us and our enemies equally. Also assuming you played a magic heavy list with Master of Black Arts your chances are now improved by two additional dice in your phase. Making the average 1.5 in your magic phase and 1 in your opponents magic phase. Meaning you're just as likely to have 3 6's up on the chart by turn 2 than you are 2. Add the Black Periapt and channeling for 3 or 4 wizards and you are likely to improve your odds. Either way you don't have to tailor your army to babysit the Black Coach anymore as having 3 Vampires rolling for channeling, Master of Black Arts, and the Black Periapt is still very viable.

This is speculation and subjective but I also have the feeling that people wanting to play with magic will be looking for ways to add to their pool which means we have better odds of improving our Black Coach to affect the game earlier. Like High Elves with the Banner of Sorcery and Jewel of Dusk. On average that's 1.5 too. Though that's wishful thinking a little bit.

What I like the idea of is the Signature Spell in the Lore of Beasts. +1 Strength and +1 Toughness. So D6+1 S6 impact hits followed by 3 S6 attacks from the Wraith and 2 S5 attacks from the Nightmares probably with Hatred and later Killing Blow.

 

[Larro]

As a tournament player, I couldn't disagree more about the perceived hits to VC. Lots of other armies got hits as well, and while things like Miscasting and Stepping Up look bad, I think you can make them work. It just takes a different view on things.

As much as people are trying to go with a HTH Lord, I think a Caster Lord is the definite way to go moving forward. Bunker him with a Helm, Earthen Rod and 4+ Ward, with MotDA, Master power, and Acolyte (or FL if you prefer - but I don't). Ghouls only got better with Stepping Up, as we play the grinding game better than most. Wight Kings are bargains now, and GW Grave Guard are the new hammer in the list, IMO.

All of this synergizes with the way the game plays now - 100+ VPs is a win, but you only get points for fully destroyed units. What this means is that more easily killed units like the Vharg and Black/Blood Knights should be exchanged for more bodies and bigger CR units, which while "boring," is what will win in the new edition. Not to say BKs don't have a place - a unit of 10+ can still hit hard vs. the right target, but gone are the days of 5-6 running through a wood to negate a flank.

Wraiths and Vampires remain the only real mysteries to me at the moment, but playtesting will sort that out. How to arm the Vamps, and are Wraiths still worth it, being the questions I need answered. As to the Coach? I wouldn't likely leave home without one, especially since we didn't get the Unstable rule, and S7 Autokill is gone.

- Larry

 

[Kalandros]

I'm wondering if I want to go with 2 black coach in 3k+ games. Splitting up powers slows down getting ethereal/fly but at least if you lose one to a cannon shot early (4+ ward only does so much...) then you still have the other one to tone down magic.

 

[Larro]

The way wound multiplication works now, I disagree. Wounds are now multiplied *before* Ward Saves, so it's no longer an all or nothing proposition. For 1 Cannonball to kill your 4-wound Coach now, they have to not only roll a 4+, you then have to fail all or almost all of the 4/5/6 Ward Saves, depending on the roll.

So, not likely in one shot anymore.

Also, if you run a 2nd Coach at 3K (which is doable for sure), you likely need a 2nd MotDA somewhere as well (not that you wouldn't take a 2nd at 3K anyway), just to help ensure your dice pool is always high and offsets the Coach thieving.

- Larry

 

[N.I.B]

As a tournament player, I couldn't disagree more about the perceived hits to VC. Lots of other armies got hits as well

Nice to have you onboard, Larry. Good analysis.

 

[Fujin]

I never used one in 7th edition but it's certainly got my attention now, if only for the magic defense potential (by virtue of stealing enemy pool dice).

@ Larro - excellent points about the VP scenarios and "quick VP loss" units like the Varghulf. I'm skeptical about the casting-heavy build as it really seems like, grinding aside, you need to be putting things on the deck to sway combats. And that means characters reaching out to touch someone with a big, sharp, pointy death-stick. Tooling the most (potentially) powerful fighter up to throw spells is quite the counter to this idea. Very much looking forward to hearing your experiences on the matter.

 

[Strig]

@ Larro
I am a little confused on what you mean by having wounds multiplied? For the BC, it gets a 4,5,6 ward save? I have never used one in combat and being as new as I am, I am little lost to say the least lol.

If you, or anyone could clarify that I would be most appreciative!

Thanks!
- Strig

 

[midean]

I plan on giving one a try. The ability to be anywhere on the battlefield (Roaring up a flank....:devil2 and still be able to power up is awesome. Opens up a lot more tactics on the first couple turns instead of having to spend a turn or two in the back lines to power up. And the anti-magic effect of taking PD away from the enemy is a real bonus to.

 

[derikari]

@ Larro
I am a little confused on what you mean by having wounds multiplied? For the BC, it gets a 4,5,6 ward save? I have never used one in combat and being as new as I am, I am little lost to say the least lol.

If you, or anyone could clarify that I would be most appreciative!

Thanks!
- Strig

I have Sword of Mega Kill, it does d6 wounds. I hit you and wound you once. You fail armour. In 7th ed you now roll ward and regen but this edition I roll a d6 for wounds, I roll a 4. Now you roll ward or regen for each wound, so that's 4 ward saves for you. In 7th, if you failed your ward you'd be dead to my 4 wounds. In 8th, if you failed one you'd have 3 wounds left. If you failed 3, you would have 1 wound left.

 

[Shadowfax]

@ Larro
I am a little confused on what you mean by having wounds multiplied? For the BC, it gets a 4,5,6 ward save? I have never used one in combat and being as new as I am, I am little lost to say the least lol.

If you, or anyone could clarify that I would be most appreciative!

Thanks!
- Strig

I have Sword of Mega Kill, it does d6 wounds. I hit you and wound you once. You fail armour. In 7th ed you now roll ward and regen but this edition I roll a d6 for wounds, I roll a 4. Now you roll ward or regen for each wound, so that's 4 ward saves for you. In 7th, if you failed your ward you'd be dead to my 4 wounds. In 8th, if you failed one you'd have 3 wounds left. If you failed 3, you would have 1 wound left.

Where are you getting this interpretation from? I'm looking at the 8th edition special rule for Multiple Wounds on page 73 and it's not agreeing with you...

Was there something buried in one of the FAQs that addressed this?

 

[Kalandros]

I don't see this anywhere in the new rules, the new rules tell us that it works exactly like in 7th edition...

'Each unsaved wound inflicted by an attack with Multiple Wounds special rule is multiplied into more than one wound'

This right there says 'unsaved' so you have to save before multiplying.. no?

The last paragraph means that if the weapon causes a "D6" or "D3" (or any other random amount using a dice) that you first roll the normal wounds, like 4 attacks hit, 3 wound, 2 are unsaved, you then roll 2 separate dice to determine the total amount of wounds. You get a 3 and a 4, thats 7 Wounds total - no more saves to take as they are already Unsaved!

The reason for the last paragraph of the rules is to specify that you do not roll a single dice to multiply multiple multiple wounds (redundant redundancy). Like having 2 unsaved Multiple wounds (d6) you do not roll 1 D6 and then apply it twice, you roll 2 separate D6 and add them together.


So I really cannot see where you've found the ruling on 'Save after multiplying' D:

 

[derikari]

Psh my bad, mixing up the real thing with the rumours. >_> I should look things up before I post.

 

[Fodderboy]

I'll be trying the BC over the next while for sure. After 2 lucky magic phases, you should be at the golden MR(3) threshold, where you get a 2+ ward save vs any and all spells.

That's some kind of fantastic.

In addition, you don't have to cluster up your casters around it anymore. You can spread your vamps out to provide valuable mobility to the army.

If they channel dice, you can still suck those up. Losing any PD can really screw your game play, especially if you're trying for those bigger spells.

The only dice we can't grab (that I've noticed) are bonus suckage PD from Lore of Death when the Purple Sun goes skipping through a couple of units (accidentally hitting some of your zombies that just happened to fill any gaps too wide for the sun to cross).

It causes Terror, which can still cause units to flee.

It can charge reliably 16", but 18-20" still wouldn't be too hard. That's almost a guaranteed panic check for terror on turn 1 if we go second.

The Wraith on board now hits with S5 instead of S4, making him more than a magical version of the horses.

Undead are not Unstable, regardless of how much sense it would make for us to be. That means it gets to ward off half of the crumble result.

Overall, I think the coach has much more staying power, and with VP's being all-or-nothing, units will either be horrificly offensive (augmented ghouls) or impossible to kill (regen sword-and-board glittering robed GG).

 

[Abbysal]

I used the Black Coach for the first time ever today and she was fantastic, absolutely fantastic. Turn 4 full power! Question, does the opposing player roll all of his power dice for me? I hope that's the rule or I just took 2 more PD than I should have from my friend.:zombie:

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

The opposing player rolls all the dice in his PD pool, including those generated by magic items or rules.

 

[Abbysal]

Excellent, I used her right and she was great. Like I said she was Flying in turn 4! and I had 6's to spare:zombie:

 

[space cowboy]

The Black Coach was phenomenal in my game today versus High Elves. Between my opponent and myself, my black coach was at level 6 by the start of my turn 2 (I went second) and proceeded to flying charge the hell out of his Sea Guard. It was more than worth the points and I think I would have to be playing a battle that forced me to not be able to mathematically field it to not throw one into my army from now on.

 

[Zanthor]

So, I had inherited a second coach, and have been looking for a reason to field it for a very long time, and wrote up a list with two of them a couple of weeks ago with the new PD changes in mind.

The question is how do you deal with both coaches? Do you roll for one and then for the other? Can you chose which one goes first? I'm thinking the answer is 'yes' to both. What do you think?

And is it too much?

 

[Kalandros]

You roll all power dice ONCE
Dealing with multiple Black Coaches is defined clearly in its Evocation of Death rules. Basically you randomize any dice absorbed, so you could have one fully powered up still receiving dice while one isnt fully powered up.

 

[witchking1980]

I have tested black coach yesterday and on 2nd turn it had all the upgrades. I think it is a must for 8E.

 

[Shadowfax]

Might as well toss this in here since this thread is Black Coach HQ; any tips for assembling the bugger? The cab section is particularly intimidating, since it looks liable to skew while the glue is drying and end up as a crazy parallelogram.

I have a cute Coach I made out of Lego while my GW model remained unassembled, but now that 2x Black Coaches is a legitimate strategy I'm thinking I should put together the second one.

 

[Abbysal]

Pin it! You should get into the habit of Pinning any metal models no matter how small.
Once you have done it a couple of times it will take you a minute for every pin. This will make sure that not only will it provide much stronger joints but it will not move while the glue is drying.:zombie: