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The Black Coach will be too awesome unless nerfed in next edition
- Thread starter Drakim
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My apologies about the wound multiplication mixup!
Your points are taken and noted re: our need for HTH hitters. However, just because you take a Caster Lord does not mean your list is devoid of HTH elements.
At ~2K - 2250, I would certainly take a unit of 20-24 Grave Guard with Great Weapons and +1 to Hit. Yes, it's a little points-intensive, but I think we need to get away from 7th Edition mindsets. MSU is gone, and VPs are all or nothing. A unit of GG that size is just about 400 pts., and throws out 13 S6 attacks with Champion, hitting likely on 2s after Helm. This is an amazing Hammer, which doubles as an Anvil with T4 and a (marginal) armor save.
What else grinds in the army? Ghouls do. Ghouls, and Wight Kings. Wight Kings are a bargain now, for armor, T5, 3W and S6 on foot. A Wight King with the Hauberk and Gem of Blood with a GW looks to be a staple in all of my builds so far, and at 2250 or higher, I've been taking a 2nd Wight King as BSB with Drakenhoff to go inside the GG - that gives 12 GG swings and 3 more from the King, + Regen.
Obviously, this is a points-heavy investment at ~625, but the rest of the army is fairly cheap, and we're spending less on things like Wolves, Bats, and Wraiths than ever before, so those points go somewhere. In addition, there is incredible synergy with Breakpoint (you need banners somewhere, it gets you a very hard to remove Banner), and what are our other *real* options? No matter how hard you try, Thrall Vamps are no longer reliable in HTH, or ever really safe. T4 2 wounds is so vulnerable to flukey dice, and they're LD7 to boot, meaning very open to Lore of Death Leech spam.
I know it's unfluffy, but I do think that the Vampire's days are over, and the baton is passed to the Necro/Wight King combo. They're just about as costly as a kitted-out Vampire, still channels, but gets the points split up into 2 baskets, and has added durability. Let the Lord do the heavy lifting in the Magic Phase, and let your Ghouls, Grave Guard, Wights and Coach(es) grind stuff down.
Also - just a thought - but Lore of Beasts and the +1S +1T Spell, looks to be very useful on Ghouls. I just don't know if it's worth the cost of having to take the rest of the Lore as well, opposed to something universally better like Vampires or Death. Time will tell if we even need it, but my gut says it isn't worth the exchange thus far.
- Larry
Your points are taken and noted re: our need for HTH hitters. However, just because you take a Caster Lord does not mean your list is devoid of HTH elements.
At ~2K - 2250, I would certainly take a unit of 20-24 Grave Guard with Great Weapons and +1 to Hit. Yes, it's a little points-intensive, but I think we need to get away from 7th Edition mindsets. MSU is gone, and VPs are all or nothing. A unit of GG that size is just about 400 pts., and throws out 13 S6 attacks with Champion, hitting likely on 2s after Helm. This is an amazing Hammer, which doubles as an Anvil with T4 and a (marginal) armor save.
What else grinds in the army? Ghouls do. Ghouls, and Wight Kings. Wight Kings are a bargain now, for armor, T5, 3W and S6 on foot. A Wight King with the Hauberk and Gem of Blood with a GW looks to be a staple in all of my builds so far, and at 2250 or higher, I've been taking a 2nd Wight King as BSB with Drakenhoff to go inside the GG - that gives 12 GG swings and 3 more from the King, + Regen.
Obviously, this is a points-heavy investment at ~625, but the rest of the army is fairly cheap, and we're spending less on things like Wolves, Bats, and Wraiths than ever before, so those points go somewhere. In addition, there is incredible synergy with Breakpoint (you need banners somewhere, it gets you a very hard to remove Banner), and what are our other *real* options? No matter how hard you try, Thrall Vamps are no longer reliable in HTH, or ever really safe. T4 2 wounds is so vulnerable to flukey dice, and they're LD7 to boot, meaning very open to Lore of Death Leech spam.
I know it's unfluffy, but I do think that the Vampire's days are over, and the baton is passed to the Necro/Wight King combo. They're just about as costly as a kitted-out Vampire, still channels, but gets the points split up into 2 baskets, and has added durability. Let the Lord do the heavy lifting in the Magic Phase, and let your Ghouls, Grave Guard, Wights and Coach(es) grind stuff down.
Also - just a thought - but Lore of Beasts and the +1S +1T Spell, looks to be very useful on Ghouls. I just don't know if it's worth the cost of having to take the rest of the Lore as well, opposed to something universally better like Vampires or Death. Time will tell if we even need it, but my gut says it isn't worth the exchange thus far.
- Larry
Sorry to cast Invocation on a (slightly) old thread, but I read this on another forum and couldn't see any discussion on it here.
Has anyone realised that a powered up Black Coach, having gained an ability to Fly, will never be able to utilise the 20" move?
It's a Chariot - and Chariots can't march!
Would that be right? o.o
Has anyone realised that a powered up Black Coach, having gained an ability to Fly, will never be able to utilise the 20" move?
It's a Chariot - and Chariots can't march!
Would that be right? o.o
And speaking of that. The player whose turn it is chooses in which order things happen so he can just choose that you have to soak power dice before he rolls for winds of power meaning there is no PD in his pool to steal. Same if the coach hits max power and you dont want to lose anymore PD to it. Just let it soak before rolling for winds
@Kalandros
My gaming club already houseruled it. Our BC will still absorb no matter what.
yay!
-Strig
My gaming club already houseruled it. Our BC will still absorb no matter what.
yay!
-Strig
Hmm... Odd.... I wonder if someone will FAQ that. Flyers can use either the ground movement or their flying movement.
pg 86: Chariots can not march
pg 70: A unit that is Flying can march as normal, doubling its movement to 20"
A flying chariot gets which? For now, I'd play that it's both a chariot and a flyer. As such it should be restricted to no marching. (Though IMO, a flying ghostly construct should be able to march)
Regardless, it can still charge a big 10" + best 2 of 3d6 though.
pg 86: Chariots can not march
pg 70: A unit that is Flying can march as normal, doubling its movement to 20"
A flying chariot gets which? For now, I'd play that it's both a chariot and a flyer. As such it should be restricted to no marching. (Though IMO, a flying ghostly construct should be able to march)
Regardless, it can still charge a big 10" + best 2 of 3d6 though.
The rules clash. Flyers can march (it's specifically stated), chariots can't.
If people say "but it's still a chariot", just say "yeah, but it's a flyer as well". Nowhere is it said that the unit type restrictions trump the special rules, IIRC.
My suggestion would be to make a roll at the beginning of the game.
I agree. Wight Kings are great for their points. In 7th, vampires were even greater, but with the maximum on heroes' numbers gone and the new point restriction, Wight Kings and Necromancers are fantastic choices.
A Wight King in your unit can also keep it from crumbling after the general is dead - quite good at LD 9.
If people say "but it's still a chariot", just say "yeah, but it's a flyer as well". Nowhere is it said that the unit type restrictions trump the special rules, IIRC.
My suggestion would be to make a roll at the beginning of the game.
Larro said:
I agree. Wight Kings are great for their points. In 7th, vampires were even greater, but with the maximum on heroes' numbers gone and the new point restriction, Wight Kings and Necromancers are fantastic choices.
A Wight King in your unit can also keep it from crumbling after the general is dead - quite good at LD 9.
Questioner
Wight King
I had my first 8th battle yesterday, and what won me the game was, quite simply, the black coach. Absorbed 3 of my power dice in my first magic phase, took 2 of my opponents in his first, in my second was fully charged... smashed through a lot. 16 Dark Elf spearmen with a Supreme sorceress? dead. all of them. They fled, it caught them... it helped that it was about 1.5 inches away when it came to charge!
I love it!
I love it!
Concerning the Fly Vs Coach isue, i'd say, if it's using it's flying rules to move, it utilises these rules, thus the flyer can march, if it's moved on the ground, it'd be conciderd to use the ground movment, and hence also the chariots movment rules.
So, if u fly, you can march, if you moved on land, you cant march.
So, if u fly, you can march, if you moved on land, you cant march.
Tomb King units cannot march - army book rule > rule book rule
Flying Chariot can 'march as normal' and the 'normal' way for chariots is that they cannot march.
Sorry but so far there is no interpretation that "Flying" rule trumps "Chariot" rules. They go hand in hand in the wording: Flying units can march as normal, a chariot's normal way is that it cannot march.
Flying Chariot can 'march as normal' and the 'normal' way for chariots is that they cannot march.
Sorry but so far there is no interpretation that "Flying" rule trumps "Chariot" rules. They go hand in hand in the wording: Flying units can march as normal, a chariot's normal way is that it cannot march.
I agree that that's the RaW, but probably not the RaI and therefore not the way I'll play it.MasterSpark said:
"Probably not the rule as intended" isn't enough, you can only know if it's RaI if you ask them. Ask yourself at what point 'Rules as Intended [by the developers]" becomes "Rules as Conjected [by the players]".
As it stands, the rule has changed and there's no indication it shouldn't stay changed. Kal is right, if 'Normal' is 'Not' then 'Not' is how you play it. No marching for our black coaches, as 'normal', airborne or otherwise.
As it stands, the rule has changed and there's no indication it shouldn't stay changed. Kal is right, if 'Normal' is 'Not' then 'Not' is how you play it. No marching for our black coaches, as 'normal', airborne or otherwise.
Shadowfax - claiming to know the intent and therefore ignoring the written rules is not only wishful thinking but also somewhat cheating.
You're not supposed to play the rules how you "feel they should be interpreted" unless something is REALLY unclear.
Which is not the case here, the rules complete each other, so just because you don't like that its no reason to make your own rules.
You're not supposed to play the rules how you "feel they should be interpreted" unless something is REALLY unclear.
Which is not the case here, the rules complete each other, so just because you don't like that its no reason to make your own rules.
When I say "not the way I'll play it" I really mean "not the way I'll play it, with my friends, after discussion, playing in my basement".
This is entirely a side-effect of the changes to the way a Flyer moves (and now marches). It has nothing to do with the way the Black Coach was designed or intended to work.
This is entirely a side-effect of the changes to the way a Flyer moves (and now marches). It has nothing to do with the way the Black Coach was designed or intended to work.
One reflection on the RaW interpretation of the Evocation of Death.
If I understand correctly, the problem is that the opponent, by deciding the order of actions in her magic phases, may make you roll your Evocation on a void power pool.
Now, looking at the rules as they are written, the black coach absorbs magical energy at the start of every magic phase by rolling the dice in the pool. To me, the question here becomes: does it exist such a thing as a void power pool?
Actually, this does not seem to be the case. According to the BRB the active player "takes a number of dice equal to the Winds of Magic roll and makes up a pool of power dice". So, the pool is made up equal to the strenght of winds of magic (which is also assumed to be a contextual factor already there, not something generated by the player), it is not filled by the winds of magic.
What I mean is that there is no void pool ever: first there is no pool at all and then there is a pool equal to the strength of the winds of magic. As such, the Evocation of Death can only take place after the (Winds of Magic roll and the subsequent) making up of the pool. What the opponent can decide, according to this interpretation, is to make the VC general to roll before she attempts to channel additional power dice with her wizards (and for sure the VC player may instead decide to roll after in her turn).
This is the only RaW interpretation that makes sense to me.. what do you think.. has necromancy made me completely crazy
??
If I understand correctly, the problem is that the opponent, by deciding the order of actions in her magic phases, may make you roll your Evocation on a void power pool.
Now, looking at the rules as they are written, the black coach absorbs magical energy at the start of every magic phase by rolling the dice in the pool. To me, the question here becomes: does it exist such a thing as a void power pool?
Actually, this does not seem to be the case. According to the BRB the active player "takes a number of dice equal to the Winds of Magic roll and makes up a pool of power dice". So, the pool is made up equal to the strenght of winds of magic (which is also assumed to be a contextual factor already there, not something generated by the player), it is not filled by the winds of magic.
What I mean is that there is no void pool ever: first there is no pool at all and then there is a pool equal to the strength of the winds of magic. As such, the Evocation of Death can only take place after the (Winds of Magic roll and the subsequent) making up of the pool. What the opponent can decide, according to this interpretation, is to make the VC general to roll before she attempts to channel additional power dice with her wizards (and for sure the VC player may instead decide to roll after in her turn).
This is the only RaW interpretation that makes sense to me.. what do you think.. has necromancy made me completely crazy
??Generate pool dice
Roll for Black Coach
It's that easy
It really isn't worth considering the "intent" of the Black Coach and how the changes affect it. Even if you accept that the Coach was designed with the intent of being able to move 20" at any one time when flying, it certainly wasn't designed with the idea that this should be happening by turn 2-3 in a normal game. So if you want to houserule something that gives you a significant benefit like a marching flying Coach then do be sure to make a second houserule where you never roll more than 2 normal pool dice for the Black Coach every turn
Intent is usually best considered in the Socratic context: I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing.
Roll for Black Coach
It's that easy
It really isn't worth considering the "intent" of the Black Coach and how the changes affect it. Even if you accept that the Coach was designed with the intent of being able to move 20" at any one time when flying, it certainly wasn't designed with the idea that this should be happening by turn 2-3 in a normal game. So if you want to houserule something that gives you a significant benefit like a marching flying Coach then do be sure to make a second houserule where you never roll more than 2 normal pool dice for the Black Coach every turn
Intent is usually best considered in the Socratic context: I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing.
That the opponent can choose that you shall soak on a void power pool in his turn is as the rules are written atm and is how most players are ruling it in Sweden. At least in my area and the swedish warhammer forum. Same as WE wardancers cant choose a dance if they are charged by an enemy unit that is striking before them in the opponents turn. Thats the rules, sure if your playing with your friends you can always houserule but in tourneys this will be standard.
The Evocation is used 'at the start of every magic phase' but there is a requirement: that you roll pool dice. If the pool has not been generated yet, then you are not up for Evocation yet. As soon as the pool is generated, you roll the dice.
There is nothing wrong with the order of sequence here so there's no need to have one player decide.
There is nothing wrong with the order of sequence here so there's no need to have one player decide.