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Nice that the (Bretonnian) Gallants finally made their way in :thumbsup:

Should not the Lady's Champion be a mandatory upgrade? He is the one who keeps the pack together, or isn't he? If this thougt is carried on, it would make a unique combination if the unit could as an upgrade option additionally have/upgrade a low-ranking lahmian vampire, giving the unit two champions (I confess this is not usual, but has been done before - have a look at the units of troll-/giant-slayers).

Do you think it complicates things too much if the fixation of the minions to their mistress is represented by something like a morale-check if their lady (be it the highest-ranking lord [highest point cost], thrall who has joined the unit, or Lahmia vampire-champion) is slain?

I like the Fell Bat changes (always good to have a bloodline-specific upgrade).
 
Hehe.. yea, the "gallants" name seemed the most appropriate to me, so it was adopted from the other idea we talked about. :)

The main reason is to avoid the two-champion problem, especially combined wit other protective measures found in the lahmian army. Besides, I don#t really see the "champion" as mandatory either, as I can easily see a lahmian convincing her followers that they are all her special champions...

I don't want to complicate things too much, so I decided to lessen their LD value, to represent their dominated nature. The argument could just as easily be made for hatred+frenzy if the lahmian was killed... another reason why I didn't do this, was that even though the minions may include a lahmian Vampire, the minions themselves might actually belong to the general, or a hero lvl vampire in the army... But, yes, I think it would complicate things too much in this case, as well as force you to create a more structured hierarchy for the list.

I'm more happy with the Fell Bats now than I was. I liked the hit and run idea, but it was too complicated and could easily have made a mess of things on the battlefield.
More dangerous Strigoi Fell Bats just seemed appropriate somehow :)
 
Did you have a thought on the coven throne? Actually, it is not listed as a common mount, nor is it available as a lahmia-specific upgrade.
Do you intend to give it new rules? I think it is too good a model to ignore it...

edit:
the Von Carstein Thrall has no Bs. Should be 4?
 
All Bloodlines have lesser vampires by now (Sylvanian Vampire Brood, Carstein unit champions, Handmaidens, Lahmia unit champions, Warrior Hermits, Blood Knights, Vargheists, Vargulfs). The only bloodline without lesser vampires is the Necrarch bloodline.

What would you think about something in the line of "Necrarch Apprentices"? It seems sometimes the Necrarch take a promising human as a student (as W'soran teached Melkhior and Sethep, or Melkhior teached Zacharias...):

Rare choice (Necrarch only), Troop Type=Infantry (Character).
M5? WS3 BS3 S4 T4 W1 i4 A1 LD7; Vampire, Immortal
(not a full-grown vampire yet... so movement 5 only?)
Equipment: Hand Weapon, light armour?
May upgrade to Level 1 Wizard... ...+35 points (Lore of Vampires, Lore of Death)
May take up to 50 points of magic items and Vampire Powers (with a maximum of 30 points of either category)
Lightning-rod: if within 6" of a higher ranking Necrarch (Lord or Thrall), the effects of enemy spells may be redirected at the Necrarch Apprentice.
Price tag: about 45-50 points?

edit: added equipment, Carstein and Lahmia champions.
 
Hey Thorin

I haven't decided how I will resolve the issue of introducing "champion" lvl Vampires for the Necrarchs yet, but what I am pretty sure of, is that there will indeed be some sort of apprentice option, but overall the necrarch list will be designed so that it will together with the Strigoi, have the least number of Vampires options in it.

One option could also be to make a Rare option, with a small circle of apprentices (1-3). I can happily imagine a necrarch loving to have a small number competing for his favors against one another. :)

The main question is determining their tactical function however, as I generall wish for the "champion" lvl ones to stand a bit out from the Vampire Thralls that are a Hero choice, and not just as far as their stats goes.

I haven't really begun to delve into the necrarchs all that deeply yet, as I'm dealing with the Lahmian special characters at the moment, but I like the outline of your idea Thorin.
 
Hello Uziel,
one point on the army organization chart:
the bloodline specific units are concentrated in the rare section, while the more common units can be found in the core and special sections.
The Black Coach is available to every bloodline (I think Lahmia and Necrarch will surely have access to it, too). Wouldn't it make sense to move the Black Coach to the special section? The Coach is not bloodline specific, but blocks a lot of the points available for the rare units which should be used in the first place to give the army that final 'unique' touch and make it different from the other bloodlines.
To compensate for the change, the Black Coach could be restricted to 0-1 (0-2 in a grand army) or to 0-1 per lord-level vampire (representing his or her personal means for travelling to the field of battle), thereby avoiding the creation of 'spam lists'.
What do you think?

b.t.w., has there been a development regarding the Lahmia special characters?
 
Hey Thorin

You are indeed correct, in that the Black Coach is one of the few "general" rare options available to all bloodlines. The reason I want to keep it this way, is that first of all, due to its stats and special rules etc, it is the most "fitting" place for it, and by making it a special choice with limitations, it would sort of get you more Rare choices than normally allowed, which can unbalance things quickly.
Another reason I wish to keep it as a Rare choice, is that some of the bloodlines don't as of yet have that many rare options, and I don#t want there too be too few options available here.

I have however been considering changing the Black Coach, especially its tactical role (and modifying the fluff, as it annoys me that we've never been presented with a vampire that has actually been raised again as a result of its rejuvenating properties), and in this case, it could possibly be reduced a bit in power, and become a special choice. It is something that I have considered, but not really found a tactical solution too which I was entirely happy with. It is still on the table however, just not a priority at the moment.

I have been working overtime the whole week, so I haven't gotten around to working on the Lahmians, or at least, not having gotten anything down "on paper".

What I am thinking though, is:

Neferata: I'm thinking that she will have some unique rules to her, particularly some sort of nasty AOE seduction/paralyzing kind of affect, much like she had in the nagash triology. Another thing, is that I don't want her to be an amazing warrior as such, but rather let her be protected by up to 3 handmaidens, and/or give her the option of riding the Coven Throne (which will be modified somewhat).

Arzu Banu, the Queen's Wrath: This will be the Hero option, based on this model: http://www.freebooterminiatures.de/en/catalog/43
She will be a warrior type vampire, and the one Neferata sends to kill those of her own which disobeys her commands. I#m thinking some kind of nasty magic sword for her as well.

"Winged Furies": Basically, more feral and winged Lahmians, based on these models: http://www.fenryll.com/product.php?id_product=524
This unit will be a Lahmian only Rare option.

I am also considering some sort of ballista type battery solution for the lahmians, much like that of the romans. Helps give them more of an eastern feel, or maybe even some sort of gunpowder option, to tie it a bit more into neferata's long journey to the east, as well as to the fact that Lahmia was the city that did have blackpowder weapons at one point, bought at great cost from the emperor of Cathay.
 
Wow, that's a hot demon, if there ever was one!

The Coven Throne for Neferata allone? The model fits well to her, but lord-(lady-)level-Lahmians should be allowed the Coven Throne as a mount, too. In my opinion it is one of the better gw-models of the last years.

A ballista or bolt thrower could work well. Von Carstein already has something like that. As for black powder, hmmm..., a cannon would be "too much medicine". Do you want to allow skeleton-archers? This would remind of the Lahmian old days, too. The Tombkings are allowed archery. Maybe a combination of archers and black powder. Remember "Army of Darkness"?
Interesting part from 11:24 on: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xr3XiNU6yag&feature=relmfu
...oh dear, I remember when I saw that movie in cinema. Is it possible that so much time has passed since then?
 
Thorin:

The coven Throen will most certainly be Lahmian option without Neferata as well. It just seems a bit silly if she dosn't have the option, being their queen and all. :)

I'm not really sure what I#m going for as far as the "ballista" option yet. I'd like for there to exist a model that fits the bill well to base it upon, so I have to do some research here. I just know I wan't the Lahmians to have some sort of range option, to "encourage" their enemies into engaging with their skeletal legions.
I was aslo considering using something resembling the empire multiple-rocket launcher thingy, as that does have its inspiration from the far east in our own history, and then there would be an easily convertible model already made..

And yes, I loved the Army of Darkness movie in its day. hehe Go Ash!
 
In the old Armybook, the ranks of the vampires were Thrall - Count - Lord (german: Baron - Graf - Fürst) --> look here http://redelf.narod.ru/w6/vc/w6_vc.html.
I just realized that you turned this around at the Von Carsteins, their ranking in the Bloodline Legacies is Thrall - Lord - Count. Was it intended to change the ranks?

I know at the moment you are working at the Lahmia. Nonetheless, I wanted to bring this to your attention: http://redelf.narod.ru/w6/vc/w6_vc_sethep.html
At the beginning of this project, when you were searching for possible special characters, I told you about this character and his summarized background (a Necrarch of the 2nd generation and 'collegue' of Melkhior). Now I stumbled across his rules... Please note that according to the story in that old White Dwarf, this character was killed in battle by Konrad von Carstein. Fortunately, there is no background-information as to whether he had any students/apprentices ;)

edit - the first link did not work.
Tried again: http://redelf.narod.ru/w6/vc/w6_vc.html
 
Yes. This "change" was very much intentional. The Von Carsteins are the only ones with a proper pseudo-province to rule, and they title themselves counts. Have you ever heard about a vampire above Vlad/Mannfred in "standing"? I for one sure haven't, and this is why I decided to switch things around as far as the Von Carsteins go, at least in the sense that granting them the exclusive right to this title and power lvl...

Yes, I remember about Setep. Thanks for the link. I'll consider using the lore somehow once I get to the Necrarchs. :)
 
I found that website by chance, and wanted to share it. The rules depicted there are no more valid anyway, but the special characters respectively their rules are good for inspiration. Or for houserules.
 
Another late night at work here. Inspiration is always nice Thorin. :)

Some key points on special characters for the project in general:

One of my key principles with special characters, is that they should add something unique to an army, i.e, something one can't get by making ones own character using the standard rules. Often you see special characters created, more or less as an excuse to bend the usual point limitations or stat limitations, and I try to avoid this as far as possible (unless I really think it is justified to get an exceptional character across).

I also try to work keep even the lord lvl special characters at 500 points or less, at least without their mounts etc.. This will make them a lot more usable overall.
 
Added a new Lahmian exclusive unit to the Rare section, the Lamhian Furies.

Point cost have not yet been worked out.

Models are available from http://www.fenryll.com/product.php?id_product=524

This model, will be a character model for them as well: http://www.freebooterminiatures.de/en/catalog/43


As always, feedback is welcome and most helpful. :)
https://www.vampirecounts.net/Thread-The-Bloodline-Legacies-Army-List


Ps. I've decided to hold off on Neferata herself, until the Time of Legends book is out etc..
 
They are as tough as vampires use to be, but without any armour not indestructable. With their high mobility and initiative and many strength-5-attacks, maybe around 28-29 points each?

Looking forward to those Lahmia special characters. When will Time of Legends be out? :)
 
Yes, they are a bit of a glass cannon, but the fact that they are skirmishers combined with the Immortal special rule, will give them some protection, as will the Initiative of 6 when they get int close combat vs smaller units.

I was thinking somewhere around 30 points/model initially, so we seem to be thinking along the same lines there Thorin, which is good. :)

The Neferata book, will be out in december if I am not mistaking. So, Neferata will probably be the last character that is done for the whole project.
 
Uziel said:
Yes, they are a bit of a glass cannon, but the fact that they are skirmishers combined with the Immortal special rule, will give them some protection, as will the Initiative of 6 when they get int close combat vs smaller units.

I was thinking somewhere around 30 points/model initially, so we seem to be thinking along the same lines there Thorin, which is good. :)

The Neferata book, will be out in december if I am not mistaking. So, Neferata will probably be the last character that is done for the whole project.
Click to expand...

As Neferata was the very first vampire ever, it is just fair to make her the culmination of this project :cool:

I compared the Lahmia Furies with the Sylvanian Vampire Brood and the Blood Knights (their relatives... sort of), my suggested point cost is based on that comparison. I tried to compare their respective strengths and weaknesses to each other.
 
When reading through the different sections and rules (again), I realized that the naming of the 'Zombie Horde' may spread confusion to the 'Hordes'-rules.
To avoid this, maybe it would make sense to rename the unit to 'Zombie Host', 'Zombie Levy' or something similar?

The Von Carstein Thrall has no Ballistic strength. I think this should be '4'?
 
Hey Thorin.

I think the Horde name is more appropriate, although I can see that for some it might be confusing. The thing is, "Host" is used by spirit hosts already for one thing, and I still think "horde" is the most appropriate word to use.
Btw, I'll make a slight rule change to the zombies, which will make you want to field them in proper hordes, and not in ordered marching ranks, which seems to be the case today..

The BS should indeed be 4 yes. An oversight on my part. Thanks for the catch. :)
 
Is the Zombie-change planned as an upgrade or unrestricted for all?

Up to date every bloodline has a 'special' upgrade for its 'core'core unit: heavy armour for skeletons of the Blood Dragons (and Barrow Riders), halberds for skeletons of the Von Carstein (and Militia), Phalanx for skeletons of the Lahmia, Crypt Stalkers for Ghouls of the Strigoi (and better rules). Do you plan any core-upgrade for units of the Necrarch, something that makes the Necrarch's core-unit different from the rest? Zombies are a suitable core-core unit to Necrarch - maybe the new Zombie-rules as a special for them?
...just writing what was my first thought...
 
Hey Thorin

The zombie change is a general change for all zombies, as it is pretty much how I think zombies should be used in the first place. :)

Necrarchs will get more upgrades for the zombies yes. This has been planned for a long time.
I was originally considering a new, more elite zombie unit for the necrarchs, but I think that just having a small upgrade option for a number of Zombie Hordes equal to the number of Necrarch charaters in the list, will be more than enough, and it will keep the cost low, and thus the army bigger. I quite like the idea that a Necrarch have been experimenting in his "lab", and I wan to get this across in the list as well.
Besides, the Necrarch army list will feature Necrarch Abominations, non-ridden Zombie Dragons, and other "horror" inspired units, so two different zombie units is a bit much.
 
Zombies have now been made a much more interesting choice for Necrarchs...

https://www.vampirecounts.net/Thread-The-Bloodline-Legacies-Army-List
 
Uziel said:
Zombies have now been made a much more interesting choice for Necrarchs...

https://www.vampirecounts.net/Thread-The-Bloodline-Legacies-Army-List
Click to expand...
Cool :D
25 points for two choices from the list seams a bit too cheap, though. Should'nt it be a little bit more expensive or be restricted to one choice for thralls and two choices for lords?
 
I went with the same solution as that used on Ogre Maneaters, and with the loss of "The Newly Dead" special rule as well as a new unit size limitation, I think that the points are well compensated for.

I only want one option for each Lord/Hero character, because as the list is written, you can have more than 25% Heroes. It aslo seems a bit strange that a Necrarch Lord, with so much on degenerate mind, would bother to create two separate "laboratory" units to test at the same time, at least two that are so similar.
 
I didn't write clear what I meant, please excuse me.
I did not mean two units of zombies per lord. I meant the following:
a thrall creates one unit of zombies with one choice/upgrade from the list,
a lord creates one unit of zombies with two choices/upgrades from the list (fluff: he is older and much more experienced with the creation and modification of zombie-units).
I have to confess I did not see the restriction of the unit size, which has a large impact for units of low-point-miniatures.
 
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