The Lizardmen menace

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i think he has more of a deathstar approach. He wants to crush the enemy with overwhelming force, which is nice. but i dont think it'll work so well against a foe that won't die...
The last game he played against VC was a victory, but it was a maigc heavy list the used lots of zombies, which the saurus promptly shreaded :rolleyes:

I hope to have a very different outcome, since he hasnt played a combat heavy vamp list as of yet, he may make some mistakes in his strategies, and if he does then he's done :konrad:

When i first posted this thread i was practically shaking in my boots at the thought of the LM battle line, but now i understand that their weaknesses are quite easy for me to exploit, the only thing i wish i had the points for right now was a unit of wraiths to flank with!
 
I think you have a good shot at him. Knowing how an army works is half the battle.

What does he run? A horde of Saurus? Ahem, a horde of init 1 saurus? If so, I wish I could see the look on his face when you throw out a IF purple sun on them. That'll talk him out of running deathstars :D. Also if you happen to roll curse of years with your lord, that's another way to deal with a large unit.
If you had points for Helm of command, that would seal the deal as it would give him a 1/3 chance of hitting, turning 24 attacks into 8 hits (6 saurus with spears leads to 24 attacks). It's a terrific way to neuter someone who wants to crush the enemy :D. But since you're combat heavy, I'll stop plugging the helm of command now :innocent:
 
i removed the unholy lodestone from the CC to make room for a tomb blade on my second thrall who is in a skele unit.

would you recomend a second (or third) magic level instead of this?
I'm pretty weak on the magic side so i thought the Tb would help to balance that out and make me need to cast IoN less upon one unit. also since i've got a few thralls helm of cammandment wouldnt be too infeasable since they won't all be incombat at once.
 
B/t the two threads, I'm a little confused. Is your second thrall the one with forbidden lore? And does your lord already have his 3rd (mundane) level? If a thrall has forbidden lore, there's no way for him to get another level. And b/t red fury and infinite hatred, your lord can only get a level by paying 50 point mundane upgrade (which is a good idea anyways)
Tombblade and I have a funny relationship. It embodies a lot of what attracted me to the VC and every list, I always want to have someone with that friggen sword. But everytime, I end up editing it out. So I don't have any xp with it, but I would think that it does best in the hands of a thrall who can put the pain on (i.e. combat oriented) rather than magic oriented. My fear with giving it to a thrall is that in CC he won't have the protection needed to keep him going. I think it can still work rather well as long as he has something to protect him and he goes against weaker core troops (esp those with S 2 or WS2).
Yeah, the helm of command works best with your lord (WS 7 is much much better than 6) so if it can't go on the lord, I wouldn't sweat it too much unless you're looking for something to give a backline hero.
 
He's using cheese against you so use equal cheese against him. Purple Sun his eyes out of his skull. Exploit your better leadership with spirit leach and then use fate of bhuna and the other spell to kill off his characters one by one.

Black Coach is beautiful against the Slaan. Also, 40x GG with GW, Strigos Standard and BSB with Drakenhof work like a dream.

:vampire3:
 
Sorry for the confusion Dklyn my second thrall has forbidden lore while my third doesn't, he is mounted and leads the black knights. My lord doesn't have an extra level as of yet.

If I give him infinite hatred I will have to take away lord of te dead (avatar of death+red fury+ lot of the dead+ infinite hatred = 125 points) and give it to someone else. This is a little disconcerting because I wanted my best caster to have it. Would it be safe to use lot of the dead on a thrall or do I need to fix my lord? or should I replace avatar of death with the flayed hauberk and call it good?
 
Apologies for the double post, but I've just been informed that much of what I'd heard about his LM army was false, he runs many small 25 man units of saurus and uses engine of the gods. Apart from that I've also been informed that killing blow has no effect upon characters who are rising monstrous creatures, I'm not positive on this but my friend said it was I'n the 8th Ed rule book. Specifically he said it states that killing blow would only deal a single wound to a character on a monster, I'm not sure if this applies to monsters in general however.

Based on this new data are there any major issues with my proposed tactics or army list?
 
Aha! Now THAT sounds more like a LM army :D.
First off, tell your friend to check the BRB FAQ. It states that killing blow works on a character regardless of the mount he is on. (p.6 it's on the gamesworkshop website)
There was confusion on that, but GW cleared it up.

You can check the entry on killing blow to see the specifics, but ours doesn't work on monsters, but it does on characters riding monsters (provided that they are a unit type that is subject to KB, which skinks are :D). It works on war beasts, infantry and cavalry. If they have that in their entry, they are subject to KB. However, KB isn't 100% necessary since skink priests are T2 and 2 W. They do have a 2+ armor save though, so high str is still useful, but I've been able to topple one fairly easily without KB since they take so many wounds. Just a vamp or WK inside a unit should do the trick (4 str = wounds on 2+, just use R&F to finish the job).

25 unit saurus is pretty hefty still. That's 325 points per unit if he's using spears (which I imagine he is), so I'd handle it about the same as described. Fortunately, he doesn't seem to think that Saurus are more effective deployed in ranks of 6 instead of 5 (giving them a lot of extra attacks thanks to being in base contact on the corners). I wouldn't let him in on this. Be aware that he still will get 20 str 4 attacks coming at you (10 for first row, 5 support and 5 for spears).

If he deploys Kroq (which once again, he shouldn't be able to :D) and engine of the gods, then he has over 1k points tied up in two models. That means he can't deploy TOO many army models, which is generally good news for you.

As far as how to handle the enginer of the Gods, I don't know what you know about it but it has a NASTY magic ability that hits undead with 1d6 S5 hits (no armor save) to all units within 2d6 inches. It goes off for free during his magic phase without the ability to dispel it. That's the biggest danger of it for us. Obviously this means keep it away from large groups if possible. As that is not always possible with our army, then I recommend the alternative of just killing it quick (discussed later) If the stegadon charges you, then you take 1d6+1 S6 impact hits, which also hurt pretty badly. The skink is usually effective level 3 as well. That's about the worst of it (there's more to it than that, but that's the need-to-know parts). He may "forget" (as my friend often does) that an engine of the gods stegadon does not come with crew (look under the engine of the gods box where it says howdah weapons are replaced in his book if he challenges that p.55). so he cannot use any blowpipes or ballista or anything.
It has weaknesses though. First off, as you probably figured, charging it will give you a lot of advantages. You negate the impact hits and if you charged from out of the range of the magic ability, then you deny him that as well. On the other hand, if he charges you he gets impact hits and during his magic phase his explosion will hit whoever is in contact with him (and anyone else who is nearby). Taking the book of arkham (bound danse spell) or a necro with danse is one way to give you an edge in charging. Using cavalry could also work if you want to take them (although make sure you have enough to deal 2 wounds!). FYI it has a movement of 6.
Finally, kill the skink and the engine stops. As I mentioned, you are 2 wounds away from shutting it down. Sure, you may have a frenzied stegadon on your hands, but at least he won't hit all your units with a S5 no armor save attack.
One build that worked amazingly well for me (for your consideration only) is a thrall with AoD (GW) and infinite hatred. He had either flayed hauberk or some ward save for protection or something else I can't remember. With str 7, the stegadon had no armor save (they are at 3+) and was wounded on a 3+. It gave all the CR I needed (with the R&F units shredding the skink) to put him ldr 2 and run him down. To emphasize, I'm not saying this build is necessary just one I found helpful and is food for thought.

Also ancient steg has init 1 so you know purple sun could work for him too, although personally I would save it for the actual units (as a luck roll of 1 would negate your spell for the steg, but against a whole unit, he's unlikely to roll 25 1's :D.) If he's in the way though, no harm in giving him a good blast.

As to your earlier post, Lord of Death can work fine on a thrall. The only advantage to giving it to your lord that I can think of is that it would be harder to dispel (it's a 3+ to cast either way), but I think the combat Lord benefits too much from infinite hatred to deny him that for lord of death. Replacing AoD with flayed hauberk is very common, the only downside to it is that you would deny other thralls of that item, but if you weren't planning on giving it to them anyways, then why not right? :) Point is it's not a mistake by any means to do so, it's just a personal call on what you think is best.
 
One word Dklyn. FANTASTIC! :thumbsup:

You have given me hope in the face of terrible adversity!
Any victories I achieve against this goes shall surely be dedicated to you, and your amazingly detailed and well thought out recommendations!

Next week I will be attending my first gaming night with this group, and I promise to post a illustrated battle report following it!

Thank you again :)
 
I'm flattered you liked the info. Hopefully it'll be useful (we'll find out next week ;) ). LM is a tough opponent in this edition, even with all the advantages, so any victory you get, you earn. Please do put up the report (with pictures if practical :D ). Let me know if you have any questions or anything.
I keep forgetting to put up my reports:redface:
 
There's a fair bit wrong in his post though. He's forgotten both that a Stegadon gets thunderstomp, and that's it's stubborn, so if you do somehow manage to defeat it in combat, then it won't ever be testing on LD6, it'll be testingon LD6- or more likely, LD9 with a Slann nearby. Also the Stegadon does have a crew (No Howdah weapons though), so don't worry about sending it frenzied/unbreakable after killing the Priest on top. But yeah, focus on knocking the little guy off top and you should be okay!
 
Dklyn said:
Another terrific weakness it has is ldr 6. It has no ranks and no standard, making it rely on impact hits to win the day. If he has no impact hits, then he must inflict 4 wounds to break even on a 20+ unit which is hard to do with 3 attacks. If you charge, then he needs 5 wounds to not lose combat (making it so he is already at -2 ldr assuming he kills with every attack). Ever point he loses combat by makes his cold-blooded do far less for him.

Both the Stegadon and Ancient Stegadon are Stubborn so it breaks on unmodified leadership. If they are running a Life Slann, the Stegadon will be close to the Slann for the lore attribute Lifebloom so it will receive the general's leadership of 9 (possibly 10 with Standard of Discipline).

The biggest weakness of the Engine of the Gods is the Skink Priest itself. It can be challenged and once killed, the Engine of the God loses it's abilities. The Skink Priest is toughness 2 with a 3+ or 2+ armour save (+50 points of items, usually just a scroll). They can be easy to kill in a challenge.

Spirit Leech is also a good counter to the Stegadon as it test's on unmodified leadership. So leadership 6 vs 10 + D6. So roll 1 higher then your opponent and it's wiped from the table or else seriously wounded. You can also target the priest individually if you want as well to remove the Stegadon's abilities.
 
Hmm those both seem like very easy methods to deal with such a powerful unit, why is it so common if the counters to it are so simple and don't take much to utilize?

And since I don't have a BRB handy which lore is spirit leech from again? I want to compare it to purple sun and see how effective they are, and can spirit leech be used to target any specific model? For example a lord within a unit?
 
Oops, how did I forget it was stubborn? That's what I get for replying without checking all the details :redface: Good to know people check up. :)
I also mentioned in my post there was more to the EotG than I said, I just wanted to hit on the major points to know (stubborness forgotten). For example, I didn't really forget the crew, it's just the crew isn't really anything to worry about. I didn't know that a crew keeps a monster from taking a reaction test... been doing that wrong :). I can't think of any reason to deal with them and they only add 4 fairly weak attacks.
I'll edit out the part that stubborn negates. Point is (as the other two players pointed out) the skink is the golden spot and charging it will help you out a lot.
One thing worth mentioning though I don't think challenging it will do you any good. Also, unless I'm forgetting something, the skink will always have 2+ armor as he can only ride an ancient steg.
It may have also been the person I was up against, but I can't remember the slaan ever being near the stegadon. He usually kept his temple guard a ways away from the action and his EotG in the middle of it. Granted though, he never had a life toad. (shrug)

Are you asking why is the EotG so common if the counter is simple? Because it is still a really dangerous unit. Even one good use of the explosion is deadly (1d6str 5 no armor can do a number on small groups) and 2d6 range can, with a bit a luck, be really far. It can also do more than I explained (protect from ranged attacks, make spell casting easier) and it makes the skink atop of it cast and dispel like it's one level higher. The counter is simple to explain but can be difficult to do. It's easy to say to charge it, but sometimes the situation doesn't allow you to do so. And of course, there are things the LM general can do to protect the skink. And once the skink dies, there's still an ancient stegadon which is nothing to sneeze at.

Spirit leech is the signature spell for death, so you get it with purple sun.
 
Ahah that makes sense, it seems that the main weakness of EotG is assisted my its greatest strength then, it helps their magic which in turn helps to prevent a spell like purple sun or spirit leech from ever going off. I think just going to have to try and stay away from it for as long as possible while still attempting to kill the skink with whatever i can throw at it, granted that'll give him more freedom to maneuver about the field, but I'm truly not worried about his other units, they'll fall easily enough before my GG and such.

This brings me to another question I have about lists and use of units. Currently I have a regiment of 10 black knights and a thrall running about, against the armies i will face (empire, WoC, beastmen, skaven, LM, night gobbos, and another VC player) I'm pretty confident that they'll hold their own, and provide a much needed hard hitting yet more manouverable unit, which will be able to strike in tandem with the black coach. My question is how should i use these guys? Most of my opponents have fairly powerful units (chosen, minotaurs, temple guard) or ridiculous rare units like the screaming bell or engine. I am planning to use them as the primary flanker with the coach in support at least until it gets more powerful, since I think they'll have more attacks and be a generally more degassing unit early game.

Does this seem to be a tactically sound use against LM? (i ask about them because they seem to be the scariest)
 
I also play a Lizardmen army, and the counters can be fairly simple. I do however have one problem with your opponent, how is running a slann and Kroq-Gar? for they both count as Lords and there is no way he could take both in a 2500 point game.

If you are running a combat lord then spirit leech isn't as effective(though you do get it with purple sun as they are both from the lore of death). It isn't as effective because a thrall is only one point higher in leadership then the skink priest and Ancient Steg(their ld6 versus your ld7). Killing the priest quickly is always an easy way to get rid of the EotG as a skink priest is rather squishy, which you could use The fate of Bjuna(also in lore of death) which does 2D6 minus your targets toughness wounds(wounding on a 2+). the only problem is that it has a range of 12" so you better either be out of line of Sight, or get in close and use Vanhals danse to charge or you will have one very angry stegadon stomping on your thrall and his unit. To take out the actual Steg itself you can either nuke it with the purple sun, or use GG with GW to cut it down. Alos With taking Death you can use Soulblight to reduce the Stegs strength and toughness by 1 making it easier for you to wound it and harder for it to wound your guard, but you better make sure you kill it or it will do some damage.

To take out the actual Slann I would definitely say go with purple Sun against him and his TG entourage. While yes it may be a cheap way to do it, a Life Slann is a cheap way to win games(which all LM players have done I don't care what they say :vampire2:) After you kill the temple guard the fat toad himself is easy pickings for any of your vampires. Other then that Dklyn did a terrific job covering ways to deal with LM. Don't remember who said it but your biggest problem if he takes a Slann is obviously going to be magic. Even if you take a Black Coach he is going to smack you around in the magic phase, it's going to happen. A Black Coach can reduce how much damage he causes, but there is still going to be some hurt. Unless he is going Life, then you are going to have an easy time using Lore of Death against him.

However if he takes Kroq-Gar then the best option would be to keep your general away from him and tying him up with you GG or skeletons(I'm sorry I don't remember which group you put your lord in, either way keep him away) The reason I say this is that the carn is at Strength 7 with 5 attacks, while only at initiate 2, it has 5 Ws so killing it in turn 1 is hard, plus it doesn't do 2 wounds for every unsaved wound it does D3 wounds. So if he is rolling well and you miss just 1 AS and ward then you can lose your general just like that. GG with GW would be the best option, just keep a thrall near by(but out of the unit IMO, or again Kroq or his mount can just kill him too easily) Your GG can easily take down Kroq and his big bad T-Rex, as long as they keep getting healed back up. If you feel confident you can try and flank charge him with your Black Knights to try and kill Kroq himself. Taking out Kroq is tough, but then again you can simply just cast Purple Sun, because his Carn only has an initiate of 2. or even try Spirit Leeching the Carn because it only has a Leadership of 5 with 5 wounds. Either way I would just say try and keep your vampires away from Kroq because he can tear through them, even a combat heavy lord because even if you do kill Kroq you have to take 3 strength 5 wounds(it's one of his specials as Dklyn mentioned all of his unsaved wounds cause a strength 5 wound against whoever caused it.

So sorry for the long post, but to sum up:
If he is taking a Slann; Purple Sun his TG and then send in your Lord to mop the floor with the toad.
If Kroq-Gar; keep your Vamps away until you kill the Carnosaur
And kill the skink priest, then use SouldBlight and some Black Knights and GG with GW to take out the Steg.
Then take your lord with his unit around the map destroying his Saurus(and don't forget to make him take those fear tests, even the cold blooded can fail tests, trust me I know)


Hope this helps and isnt just mundane reiteration![/color]

P.S. I would probably use the Black Knights to crash into the flanks of the Saurus if you can, or to take out his Sallies if he has them, because they may not look like much, but they can tear a hole into your forces so large and so quick you'll be wondering what the hell just happened.(he will probably try and flee with his sallies since they can reform and then shoot at you next turn since they skirmish, so I would just march them close and then use Vanhals if possible.) Oh and just target the Sallies, because no other LM player will tell you this, but all you have to do is kill the Salamander and the whole unit is removed :suck:(even in CC!)
 
Your sum up was very helpful! I'm going to paste into my notes on my iPod :)

I would regard purple sun as cheap per say because of what can happen when I roll poorly...good by skeles and lord! :thumbsdown:

The salamnders are especially dangerous because I am running the drak banner, and there is nothing else he can really so about them then use his lizards (correct?). The black knights sound perfect for that especially because they have killing blow, that thing will die. I can't wait to see the look on his face when (assuming he doesn't dispel) the little bugger on his stegadon gets zapped! :konrad:
Priceless.

It also looks like Kroq would be better for my army as is, I can tar pit him and kill with spells that will be difficult for him to dispel without a toad. The toad however is much more versatile, which is where the EoTg becomes very hard for me to kill.

And don't worry about long posts, nothing makes happier than looking on my profile to find a meaty and very detailed reply waiting for me :)
 
Keep in mind that he can't dispel something you cast with irresistible force (IF) which is done by rolling 2 6's. While it's not practical to attempt so with every spell, I would recommend going for it with the purple sun targeting the toad, especially considering your thrall is lvl 1. There's a common arcane item that will make it easier to cast with IF for one casting which you may consider (power scroll I think?). I bring this up because aside from IF, I wouldn't count too heavily on getting a lot of death spells off as your thrall is lvl 1 and the almighty toad is lvl 4. If he fails, then there's still an effective lvl 3 skink priest (until you get in there and squish him :D)
With flanking, keep in mind that in order to disrupt (one of the best advantages of flanking) you need to have 2 complete ranks of 5. That means the black coach cannot break ranks and the knights can't if you lose 1 of them. Because of that, I think Mutten has it right to suggest you use them to take out salamanders (if he brings them) or really small groups with them primarily. That isn't to say avoid using flanking attacks with them as they provide 1 CR and some extra strong attacks, but just something to bear in mind during the game.

With the salamanders, under the new rules you must attack the salamander (i.e. you can't chose to attack the handlers), there's also a 1/3 chance for every wound you inflict on the salamander that a handler is removed. I would imagine that would mean a KB has a 1/3 shot of hitting a handler as well? Salamanders can be nasty, but it's hilarious when they eat their own handlers.

Also, after reading your post I wasn't sure if you meant the knights using KB on the steg. Just to make sure you're aware, KB doesn't work on the steg, just on the skink riding the steg :D. Still not a bad idea having them attack a lone steg though
 
You made the right assumption on my motives Dklyn.
And since I have 10 BKs and a thrall they'd have to kill 2 before the first charge to make a dent in the ranks.

That's item sounds intriguing! It would be a nasty surprise for the enemy to have an undispellable purple sun dropped on their heads! I think I'll have to grab one of those :devil2:

I think that I would need to bait him before hand anyway right? Try and get him to waste his dispel dice? What's a good way to do such a thing without neutering my own magic phase?
 
That's an interesting one, KB works on Salamanders, nice. And the Slann as well for anyone keeping count ;)
 
Almost forgot to mention that Kroq-Gar also has a bound spell that causes D6 strength 4 hits to all units within his line of sight(even if he is in CC or the unit is in CC) and with 12". While not as devastating as the EotG it is something to keep in mind so you don't wonder what the hell he is doing. The downside to it though is that it is lvl 5 so he will have to use 2 dice to cast most likely, so most likely you wont have to worry about it until after you kill the skink priest riding the Steg.
 
Ferrum said:
I think that I would need to bait him before hand anyway right? Try and get him to waste his dispel dice? What's a good way to do such a thing without neutering my own magic phase?

If it's undispelable, it doesn't matter how many dispel dice he has right? I've never tried this tactic, but I'd think you would want to cast use your IF sun right at the beginning of the phase (not necessarily at the beginning of the game!). There's a lot of things that can go wrong in a magic phase (for example, his caster can take an item that acts as a dispel scroll and has a 50% chance of ending the magic phase right then and there!), so if you know you want to drop that IF sun that phase, I'd do it first.

I think the LM can use kroq or slaan in the battle, so ferrum wants to be prepared for either one right? Although that just made me realize something, if this is a campaign (i.e. can't change your army list b/t games), then wouldn't you know what his Lord is already? Or was his victory over the other VC not part of the campaign?
 
Unfortunately lists can change whenever a player takes a town...but I'n the field it isn't possible.

So he could potentially take either and even drip engine altogeather if I render it useless. I just posted an alternative army list that I could switch told campaign with relatively low dollar cost, I'd like to run a ghouls force at some point but I haven't got the money right now to buy both armies.
 

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