The Lizardmen menace

[Graf Orlok]

Best solutions to the menace are the Pit of Shadows and the good old Purple Sun.

Especially the Purple Sun.

Vampire
Power Scroll
Talisman of Lycni
Forbidden Lore

March (18") to the side of opponent's army, scroll, boom (hopefully... you have to avoid 1,2,3,4,5,6 rolls and misfires... :Vampire1.

 

[Ferrum]

Now I'm not opposed to the use of purple sun, but building a thrall around it's rapid use seems like a stretch of sportsmanship to me.

I'm sure I'd get many an unhappy glare after pulling off such a move in a game not to say that it is unfair persay, but I think it would detract from the tacical depth and enjoyment of the game.

 

[_Revan_]

Now I'm not opposed to the use of purple sun, but building a thrall around it's rapid use seems like a stretch of sportsmanship to me.

I'm sure I'd get many an unhappy glare after pulling off such a move in a game not to say that it is unfair persay, but I think it would detract from the tacical depth and enjoyment of the game.

I'm very glad you said that. I've been somewhat disconcerted by the overwhelming response of "Purple Sun = Win. Sorted", and even more so with the addition of a suicide Thrall.

I agree that It is a powerful spell. I agree that the majority of close combat oriented Lizardmen have low Initiative to capitalize on. What I do not agree with is a I-win-button approach to either list building or battlefield tactics.

I am not saying that you should or should not use the spell, nor should I because there is nothing wrong with the spell. It can be game-breaking and turn the odds around for, or even against you potentially. What I personally feel is wrong (and believe me, I'm not trying to pick on people who have suggested using the Purple Sun, promise) is the idea that you should be able to cast this spell and the game should fall into place for you.

I feel that the Suicide Thrall that is supposed to jump out, obliterate himself and win the game for you is out of flavor, shows a lack of tactical acumen (or unwillingness to use any), and is border-line underhanded. I understand that this is a widely varied hobby, that not everyone will be in it for the art, the story, or even the models themselves. I understand that there are hobbyists, and that there are gamers and there is nothing wrong with that; in fact, it is one of the things that makes the hobby as great as it is -- there is something for everyone.

Now, that said, I don't expect everyone to agree with me, nor should they. I am stating my own personal opinion and in no right to tell anyone how to play any more than to tell them what color to paint their models.

With that out of the way (and out of my system :silent: ) one thing that may help you Ferrum, is to take away from this post the fact that you can capitalize on an enemy's weakness, while still playing in good spirit so that you aren't the only one enjoying your game.If you want to use the Lore of Death, go for it. If you get the opportunity for a good Purple Sun, take it. I would only recommend that you not depend your strategy on it, because even from a purely from a standpoint of only trying to win, it doesn't even work on every army.

The Lizardmen army is quite well-rounded. The major weakness it has is low Initiative amongst the Saurus and low Toughness for the Skinks. A spell I would recommend to help with both of these tasks is Vanhel's Danse Macabre.

For your Grave Guard, you can strike at your normal Initiative 3 with your Great Weapons, and slice through 20+ Saurus Warriors or even Temple Guard if you're running in a Horde. Even on your Skeletons, the re-rolls to hit will be quite helpful, because with your Lord using the helm, you will be needing 3+ to hit and the Saurus Warriors will need 5+ thanks to their average Weapon Skill of 3.

It can push your Wraiths (not to mention their Movement 6) into a Skink Skirmisher unit without worrying about a Stand and Shoot. Not to mention that they have no static combat resolution to fight you with. At the very least, they will not be hailing Javelins or Blow Darts into your units while your Wraiths scythe them down.

The Wraiths are also very valuable for holding up Stegadons (sans Engine of the Gods) due to the lack of magical attacks (which will be true of most the army by the way) and static resolution. If it has an Engine, then you could tie it up with a larger Skeleton unit, who will have little problem killing the Priest and them can tie up the beast until you can get Wraiths or Grave Guard over to deal with it (who, again, will have a higher Initiative with Vanhels). As said, a well placed Spirit Leech will give you a good head start to felling a Stegadon.

Essentially, you will want your Grave Guard to carve through the enemy ranks until they can strike down the Slaan, after which you will be in your mop-up phase.

You will be able to compete with nearly any army in terms of mobility and will much more easily be able to set up flank/rear charges, negating much of the Saurus striking power while maximizing your own.

I hope some of this information is useful. Good luck in your games Ferrum.

P.S. I know some of my comments are likely to be considered controversial, but I want to make it clear that I have no intention to offend anyone or start any fights.

 

[Ferrum]

In case of any controversy, I official endorse _Revan_'s comments as legitimate and very helpful.

Now I have seem lizardmen in the past and I agree that they will be very susceptable to the attacks made VDM wraiths. Better yet a less than savvy general may send more magical attacks than are needed towards them, which in the case of his species means his slaans magic, and his heroes. The gap made in his forces by such a counterattack would be very useful to my main blocks and they would have a much easier time breaking through his unled and un supported Saurus units.
Lizardmen are also very strong, as Dklyn has said, and so te general will probably look at my stat lines and chuckle to himself, expecting a blood bath. However as we all know there is nothing LESS squishy and diey than a block of 40 GG with a vampire watching over them.

I am thoroughly convinced that my choice to include wraiths in my newest list,
Thank you for your wonderful post _Revan_

 

[Muttenmaster90]

Ferrum I am glad you are not using the suicide Thrall, because I feel that is what really would make people not want to play you. I don't feel putting your strategy towards an all or nothing mega bomb is the way to go, course I like really close games not ones where either them or me get whooped. Not trying to start anything, because it is a solid strategy, especially against lizardmen. I personally just don't like having my vamp try and win the game by killing himself.(of course I love the fluff, and cant picture a vamp sacrificing himself)

I hope the game goes well, and don't shy away from using purple sun, for it is a very strong spell especially against Lizzies, and have fun. Hope all our help sees you to victory over a very tough opponent!

 

[Ferrum]

Yeah I have the same perspective as you on using purple sun!
I feel that it intended to crack tough units, like temple guard. And it is not exactly game breaking as it is hard to cast, a dispel magnet, and can wipe out your own men.

It is also well balanced because for the points needed to reliably (or as reliably as is feasible) would cost enough points for us to get other things which might even pay back the points a lot better.

The only thing I'm not sure about at this point is wheter or not to Rey and use mindrazor (Occam's?) to surprise opponents with S10 core units. Purple sun is more predictable I feel.

 

[Graf Orlok]

I had always restrained myself from using the Purple Sun and the suicide Thrall.
I too thought it wasn't a nice move to pull.

But...

I've seen my 30 GG + Lord annihilated on turn 2 by Skaven 13th spell + a cannon.
I've seen my two 30-strong Ghoul units destroyed in one magic+shooting phase.
I've seen Steam Tanks running over my units.
I've seen a Hydra and a chariot run over my 30 Skeletons and Lord like they were butter.
I've seen two Skaven Hell Pit Abominations kill units after units of my poor undead.
I've seen Slanns run magic phases that halved my army with just a couple power dice thanks to their powers.
I've seen an entire Orc army charge me on turn 1 with their Waaagh spell, with all his units with ASF and re-roll.

Am I allowed to try something to hit back at that? I'm tired of relying on WS1 S2 attacks... :swear:

Sometimes being always the nice guy simply doesn't pay off. If being the nice guy means having to face 2x Abominations, 2xHydra, unstoppable Slanns or PoweScroll whores... I'll be a bad guy from now on. I'm a Vampire player after all...

I perfectly understand your logic about sportmanship and playing fair.
But it should be a two-way relationship.

If I face a Power Scroll magic that nukes my best unit and my general with it (and the general takes with him the rest of the army in a couple turns) on every match I play, why should I feel guilty for using one of my own?

À la guerre comme à la guerre. :konrad:

 

[Ferrum]

Those are pretty awful things to have happen to you I agree.
Just try to imagine how our opponents feel as REIT units are ground to dust while ours don't break a sweat?
Or how our armies tend to have powerful, fast moving, and terrifyingly hard hitting cavalry, not to mention ethereal units like the black coach and wraiths who simply cannot die?
Or how our lords can often consume half a block of men and come out of it with full wounds?

From the perspective of other players I would say that our armies are even more infuriating and seem very powerful. Granted the counters to our main strengths are readily available to other players and each race, but that doesn't stop us from using them with a skill, determination, and finesse that few players using the "Smash Stuff With Even Bigger Stuff" (a new acronym! SSWEBS) armies can possibly have or even use.

On that note I will say that as you said, purple sun is a fantastic variable to insert into your list that will catch many does off guard, but it is by no means the entire equation. ( :konrad: the solution is our enemies deaths :konrad: )

 

[_Revan_]

I can understand that kind of frustration, and have had a few similar instances as well. I still don't agree with a Suicide Vampire. If you need to teach someone a real lesson, because they are completely playing out of the spirit of the game, so be it. I find that to be a very rare case, and I have not yet had a reason to do so as of yet. I'd like to think myself fortunate for having a fairly agreeable/reasonable gaming group. If you have a few pricks that really just use this hobby to extend their laughable self-esteem through use of broken and abusive "tactics", by all means, show them how it feels if you can't reason with them off the table.

On the other hand, however, this should not e an excuse for a game going poorly. If there was a critical dice roll that went awry, or a deployment, tactical, movement, charge error etc, that is no reason to lash out at a player.

Honestly, the Power Scroll is not a fun item in conjunction with some of the powerful spells in this edition. The whole concept of doing something that is meant to be utterly devastating to an opponent with no means for them to react or defend themselves in order to win a game, is poor sportsmanship. Is the item itself broken? I would be inclined to say no. Does its ability encourage players to abuse the abilities in ways that makes the game un-enjoyable for your opponent (and myself, I would not feel accomplished if I won due to an Irresistibly cast Purple Sun, especially if I did so intentionally via Power Scroll, Book of Hoeth etc.)? Yes, it definitely appears to lean that direction.

Graf Orlok, I want you to know that I understand where you're coming from, and that what I've said in no way directed at you. Just that personally, I don't see it as necessarily being the nice guy or a matter of guilt. I see it as building a stronger hobby community, with people that are genuinely interested in their armies as well as those of others, and playing games to see who is a better general, not to see who has a more broken list. I firmly believe that good hobbyists that are willing to help bring people in make for a stronger community, while abusive gamers push people out. I will not do something intentional to someone that would ruin their experience, because it is not just my hobby.

With that said, I've detracted from this topic long enough and would recommend that sportsmanship discussions or those on abusive/non-abusive items and tactics be placed elsewhere so that Ferrum's questions (and of others looking for real, tactical help against Lizardmen) are more easily answered.

 

[Ferrum]

In the spirit of not using spells that could be regarded as unsportsman like, are there any other lores with spells a VC player might find indispensable (besides camp lore)?

I have heard that mindrazor is an amazing trap to spring, and I'd consider using that, but I wonder if there are other spells of merit in shadow lore, I only ask this now because I do not possess the funds to purchase a brb, and as such do not have direct access to the common lores.

 

[Dklyn]

First off p. 446 BRB "Warhammer is not specifically designed for highly competitive, cutthroat play. It is vital that the players who come along to such an event do so in a spirit of friendly competition". So there's no reason to build your army in a way that you don't feel is fun, we're just giving you ideas on what to do. (for the record, I've never used forbidden lore ) That's all I'll say on that
As far as shadows goes, it has some fun stuff. It has a lot of debuffs which I enjoy, mixed with some AoE damage. Pit of shades (PoS) is similar to purple sun. You place a template, it scatters d6 inches (or 2d6 if you go for the larger template) and whatever is under it needs to pass init or be dragged to their DOOM! (exact wording). There's a spell that hits everyone in a straight line with a str 10 attack, and one that gives a char a fly move. Then the remaining three all decreases the stats of a unit (which stat depends on the spell). The special attribute is that after successfully casting a spell, the wizard can switch places with another friendly character, which has always sounded fun to me. I know that's kind of a rough sketch, but it gives you the basic idea of that lore. I can see any of these spells being useful.

 

[_Revan_]

I would not say there are any spells that are inherently unsporting. Most large spells can be game winners, but the Purple Sun and the Comet of Casandora (though far less precise) can devastate entire armies potentially. It's the manner and intention to exploit that fact that I find unsporting personally.

Shadow is a very powerful Lore that is useful against most opponents. The signature spell reduces Weapon Skill, Ballistic Skill, Movement or Initiative at a very low casting value, or all at once for the boosted version.

There is a debuff Remains in Play Spell that reduces Strength, and another for Toughness. There is a spell to fly a character. A Strength 10 Multiple Wound (D3) "cannon ball" spell. And of course the Mindrazor, as well as the Pit of Shades, which is something of a one-shot Purple Sun.

EDIT: Oh, looks like I've been Ninja'd sorry for there being mostly duplicate information.

 

[Ferrum]

Hrmmm. Well I'd have to say that shadow lore sounds somewhat more appealing to me than death, mostly because it is more tricksy looking than death which only has spells for well...death

The idea that I could switch places seems to be the most powerful of all the things mentioned especially when combined with one of the other very powerful spells, for example let's say Kroq Gar was rushing at one of my thralls. I could cast one or more of these vexes upon him and swap with my lord, who would likely be able to squash the weakened Kroq. The potential for great surprise attacks led by a lord who wasnt even there before is very tantilizing to me.

Another quick question about champions in units. Is it really worth payif for these guys? By taking them out of my skeleton units I could save quite a few points, and if I took out the GG and BK champs I could save around 52 points over all.
Is this a good idea?

 

[Dklyn]

The Dklyn ninja strikes again

I find shadow more appealing too, but it's a stylistic choice. Debuffing is so deliciously evil especially while simultaneously buffing your own troops with danse.

If you're going to put your lord near Kroq, be extremely careful as he is much more dangerous than our normal lord (especially one focused on casting) even while weakened.

About champions: yes and yes! Generally the champs cost the same as a normal R&F guy, but provides an extra attack on the front line (less in the case of knights) something a normal R&F won't do (once you have your ten of course). They also can accept/issue challenges which is a great way to protect your heroes from the fighty guys (like say kroq ). So say kroq charges into a unit of skellies with a thrall. You can have your skelly champion issue a challenge (which kroq would have to accept) effectively limiting kroq to only hit your champion (and not your thrall). If Kroq were to issue a challenge, then you can have the champ accept. Sure, he'll get massive overkill on that poor noble soul, er pile of bones, but your thrall is safe leaving with the option of sending some help and/or using nehek to bring your champ back to do the challenge all over again.
If I need to save points, musicians are usually the only ones I'd consider removing. However I only do that if the points are absolutely necessary (like removing my skelly musician gives me just enough points to add a varghulf in or something like that).

 

[Ferrum]

Okay that makes a lot of sense. I'll for sure keep them then since many of my friends have threatened to challenge my lord right away, which wouldn't be all that great of an idea for most enemy lords anyways.

Even with the champs still in place I decided to remove te Drakenhoff banner and use the banner of the barrows instead with my GG unit.
Now I have 120 extra points and I'm considering boosting my GG to a horde of 40. Good idea?
I could also add to my BK unit making them 15 strong plus a thrall.

 

[Bravo_10]

I'm about to try out a Grave Guard horde in my next battle. It just seems scary-good. 3 Ranks of WS3 S6 attacks (w/ Great Weapon) really sounds ludicrous. The Banner of the Barrows is definitely worth its points, especially if you stick a Wight King with your unit. Against normal infantry, who are WS3, the King's going to be hitting on 2+. I would go for it, if I were you.

 

[Ferrum]

Yeah it seems pretty incredible as well, but I actually changed my list again

I put the Drakenhoff banner back in and gave one of my skeleton units spears and the thrall in that unit a tomb blade. If this isn't so effective I'll certainly take your advice and run the deathstar

The GG with banner of the barrows as well as the banner of Strigos would scythe through most enemies in short order, especially with GWs as you suggested. However I think that I need a bit more survivability against most of the armies I'll be fighting, and the Drakenhoff banner surely gives any unit with it a lot more staying power. Ideally I'd run a horde with the Drakenhoff banner, but I just haven't got the points for it in this list.

 

[Graf Orlok]

Well, if you go for the Horde, you sure can haveboth the WK BSB with Drakenhof and the BotB for that +1 to hit.

Coupled with a nearby Thrall with the HoC... it could mean 20ish WS6 S6 magical attacks with KB and a +1 to hit.

Be sure that the enemy will throw anything and the kitchen sink to that unit.

 

[Dklyn]

If I could throw some advice out there for you to do with it what you will....

I usually give the banner of hatred to black knights if I have them (which I believe you do) instead of GG. The reason for this is that it is a lot more essential for BKs to get off a strong first round since that's when they benefit from +2 str (hatred only works on the first round). Also I tend to use knights in situations where they are only intended to be in combat for one round (hitting small units, finishing a fight via flanking etc.) whereas GG I plan on having them in for the long haul, so they don't benefit too much from hatred if they are in the same fight for a few rounds.
Here's some math for your enjoyment if you wish (assuming I worked it right). The top part refer to an army with hatred/burrows on the same unit, bottom is hatred to knights and burrows to GG. The way I see it, spreading it out gives you a better chance to hit overall your entire army.

GG with burrows+hatred
Chance to hit against equal or greater WS: 88%.
Against less WS: 98%

Knights without hatred
Against equal or greater WS: 50%
Against less WS: 67%

GG with burrows
Against WS 3-7: 67%
Against less WS: 83%

BK with hatred
Against equal WS3-7: 75%
Against less WS: 88%

Of course, you don't have to let numbers drive your army and focusing on your GG is not a mistake at all. I just felt like I would be doing you a disservice if I didn't at least give you what you need to make an informed decision.

 

[Vampire bk]

i say barrow+enchanted blades of Aiban you almost ALWAYS hit on 2's and u might take hate banner with BsB

 

[Ferrum]

Are the enchanted blades from the brb? If so could you please describe them I'n greater detail Vampire BK?

@Dklyn.
I decided to go with your advice as I'm looking for a more balanced army in general. The GG now have the drak banner and banner of the barrows, while the BK have the banner of Strigos.
To make this work I had to remove the tomb blade from one of my thralls, but afterwards I realized that I had a unit of 10 BKs not counting the thrall. So I took one BK out to make even ranks and used the extra 24 points to get the tomb blade back

I feel that I've got a lot of solid units here, since all of my units have at least one character in them not counting the CC or the black coach.
And most of the characters do something (through magic or equipment) that increases the longevity of the unit in question.

With four casters I hope to be able to swiftly raise roughly 30 skeletons in the first turn. If I can add ten to each unit that'd be awesome.
What are my chances of this happening in a game?

 

[_Revan_]

Enchanted Blades of Aiban is a spell that gives a unit in 24" (as much as 48" when boosted) +1 to all their to hit rolls, magical attacks, and Armor Piercing. It is one of the spells from the Lore of Metal.

As far as you casting, I would recommend 1-2 Master of the Black Arts powers in the army if you want to consistently have strong Magic Phases. Not only will you practically guarantee having a healthy number of Power dice, you will increase the margin between your opponent's Dispel dice and your Power dice.

Can you regularly create 30+ Skeletons (or whatever you plan on resurrecting) a turn? I think its something you can get away with for a turn or two, depending on your opponent's Dispel dice, which of course will be mitigated by your Vampires with Master of the Black Arts. I would almost say that this Vampire Power is a necessity to repeatably strong Magic Phases.

 

[Dklyn]

Sounds like you have a strong and well balanced army!

With four casters I hope to be able to swiftly raise roughly 30 skeletons in the first turn. If I can add ten to each unit that'd be awesome.
What are my chances of this happening in a game?

Fairly low. It's hard to give an exact % chance as there are a lot of variables, but lemme give you a rough sketch.
To get 30 skeletons, you need minimum of 5 neheks (each rolling a 6, highly unlikely), so to be realistic you'd need maybe 8 Neheks cast (thinking every 2 neheks average 7 7*4=28 (close to 30) 4 sets of 2 neheks = 8). That is a minimum of 8 PD rolled (slightly above average) or 6, slightly below average if you have MotBA (can't remember if you do or not). Assuming you have enough dice, you then need each one to cast successfully (rolling a 3+). Since need so many neheks, 1 dice rolling it would be the ideal way to get 30. Of course, if you fail to cast with all of your wizards who have lord of the dead, then it's over. A 3+ casting value (with level included) means that 1/3 attempts will fail, so you'd need 12 PD to reliably get 8 successful castings (since 2/3 of 12 is 8). This means all of your wizards failing is pretty realistic. Assuming they don't, your opponent still can (and will) dispel some of them.
My apologies if I messed up some math there, but I'm thinking it through on the spot.

The short answer is, it's borderline impossible to get 30 in one round unless things REALLY go your way. Adding more wizards would do little to help with that. Keep in mind that only vamps with lord of the dead can help raising beyond the starting amount. Also, since rolling a 1 or a 2 is always a failure (which means that wizard is done casting for the round), it's usually advisable to roll 2 dice per nehek, especially for your lord (this also makes dispelling a little tougher). There are exceptions to this, but that's the general rule.

Also remember that you add d6 skeletons with each casting of nehek, so getting it even across all three units is fairly tough. If you roll a 6 for how many skellies you raise, you can't split them up among different units

One thing I wanted to check on, is the thrall with tomb blade the same one that's with the BKs? You don't want that .

 

[Ferrum]

The tomb blade is in a unit of skeles.

Okay so it sounds like I need to invest in at least one MotBA, which is going to be painful seeing as how I have no where to fit it in my list, and because it's so expensive.
The 30 skeletons idea was and ideal figure. I just need to get all my units to at least 30 asap. I was just trying to get an estimate on how many rounds that'd take. This is especially important against my Empire opponent because he runs a battery of cannons and will try to knock out my units with a focused barrage, an seeing as how 3 units of 20 skeletons aren't so tough it'll be interesting to see how I cope with heavy casualties right off the bat. I would hope to try and plan my campaign so that I'd take a town right before encountering him, and thus be able to outfit my self more adequately against his forces.

I'll make a new thread regarding this specific issue so as not to completely dilute this one

 

[_Revan_]

It is also worth mentioning Summon Undead Horde.

While it is good for your Lord to cast Invocation with 2 dice early in your Magic Phase to prevent Broken Concentration, it is worth noting that an additional Power die (two more at the most, for a total of 4) will get you a Horde. So even if you play conservatively and use 4 dice, that would be the equivalent of 2 Invocations, while getting 3 Invocations worth of summoning. You also have the added benefit of being able to spread the resurrecting out as you see fit amongst different characters and units.

I do agree with Dklyn, however, thatit is not terribly likely to raise as many as you want, I believe it is possible with judicial use of Master of the Black Arts and knowing how to order your spells.