The return of the Black Coach

[Skittelz1981]

Funny, since Woodelves got their new book, Black coach is being brought back to the tables.
Everywhere you read posts about defeating woodies, the coach is mentioned as one of the 'must-have' units on the table.
It was so fallen out of grace that poor coach that it joys me to see its being useful again.
This doesnt alter the fact that it is still lacking and needs an update. Actually my only concern is its pointcost.
Its just too damn expensive.

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

Its only concern is now it does not power up in both phases, ts always been good, its just not TG good though.
It does however have allot better saves which is why its preferred against wood elves.

 

[najo]

Its only concern is now it does not power up in both phases, ts always been good, its just not TG good though.
It does however have allot better saves which is why its preferred against wood elves.

I'm a huge fan of the TG. I love the model, love the fluff, love its mechanics. I think it gets over hyped though. All of our rares are good for different reasons. They all have strengths and weaknesses. The TG is awesome against armored troops, small units and low LD. Its weak points though are it has a weak save, becomes less mobile when separated from the general and its scream tied to its wounds. It also sub par in close combat.

Once an enemy knows how to kill the TG, its very hard to keep alive. Shooting and artillery waste it very quickly, as does poison.

Compared to the black coach (decent chariot, 4++ and power up), blood knights (multiple S7 attacks per model), Varghulf (beastial fury, hatred, regen, high T and wounds) plus all three are vampires! Cairn wraiths aren't played much, but honestly a 10 man unit flanking your enemy would devastate them! Talk about disruption!

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

The problem is though, The TG is the second most survivable and has the highest damage output against all foes point per point.
Blood Knights though i love them are just too over pointed, if they made them Multi wound like the monstrous cav of other races then we are talking but the way they are, the crumbling etc they are just a liability.

The BC is still a good solid unit though, the only thing that lets it down is moving and thats because its a chariot so it can't march.

 

[najo]

Blood knights have a high armor save, ward banner and can easily flank. They avoid the majority of threats.

Black coach can keep up with foot slogging armies easily.

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

200 points for 5 attacks just seems so ridiculously expensive for a unit that can't break steadfast. I really just don't see what the purpose of it is.

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

Blood Knights are 1 wound toughness 4 models that costs more than 4 GW GG.
They can be stronger if you sink the points in but they cost twice as much and are not as good as folks think.
If in the next edition they gave them +1 WS, +1 to Armour, Hatred and a 10 points increase I would use them but as is, unfortunately not.

The Black coach though... that thing can rock.

 

[najo]

200 points for 5 attacks just seems so ridiculously expensive for a unit that can't break steadfast. I really just don't see what the purpose of it is.

Its 200 pts for 12 S7 attacks actually. Plus the 4 S4 attacks of the nightmares. BK have 2 A each and they have frenzy. So that's 16.66 points per attack. GG are 12pts for M4, S6. For 4.66 pts your getting +1S and +4M. Its less wounds, but they are vampiric and have a 2+ save.

 

[billybaker101]

Was ninja referring to the coach being 5 attacks for 200 points

 

[najo]

Was ninja referring to the coach being 5 attacks for 200 points

Possibly now that you mention it. Black coach plays a similar role to varghulf. Just different defenses and attacks, so the types of troops its good against are going to differ. That ward save is solid! It needs to avoid anything with ranks though.

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

Possibly now that you mention it. Black coach plays a similar role to varghulf. Just different defenses and attacks, so the types of troops its good against are going to differ. That ward save is solid! It needs to avoid anything with ranks though.

Yeah, I was talking about the Black Coach. Undead chariots are extremely unimpressive, in my mind. They rely on getting the charge, never do as many wounds as you hope, and then just slowly crumble away in subsequent rounds of combat. If it STARTED with ethereal and fly, or cost half as many points, I might consider it. As it stands...meh.

The Varghulf is a completely different story. It's fast, can march outside the general's bubble, and at T5 Regen 4+ is a pretty solid infantry killer. The problem is that it loses much of its potential against anything it can't thunderstomp, which is most of the really scary targets out there. Vargheists fulfill a similar role, but what they give up with frenzy they gain in fly, more wounds, and less reliance on thunderstomps. They're both more flexible and just...better.

Which is a shame, because it's an awesome model. It really needs SOMEthing to differentiate it from Vargheists. When you consider that, for 46 points they have 4 WS4 attacks at S5, 3 T4 wounds, a S5 stomp, and fly. The Varghulf, by comparison, LOSES 2" of movement and the mobility of fly, and gets +1 WS +1 T +1A and +1W, hatred and a thunderstomp, in exchange for more than tripling in cost. No way is that worth it.

Give it +1S and eternal hatred and it'd be worth it. Or maybe fly.

 

[najo]

That T5 W4 Regen is pretty hefty. As is thunderstomp. Agree that is seems over priced. If kept near spellcasters, it wound be hard to kill though.

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

That T5 W4 Regen is pretty hefty. As is thunderstomp. Agree that is seems over priced. If kept near spellcasters, it wound be hard to kill though.

Thunderstomp is only heft against things that can be thunderstomped, which is basically nothing that's scary in the current meta. And the whole point of vampiric units is that they don't NEED to be in your tiny little spellcasting bubble, but can out-flank on their own. And S5 is meh.

As I said, it's less that it's not an awesome monster and more that it's a redundant choice that doesn't really have a role. They're good at killing infantry...but not as good at Vargheists with their larger number of attacks and greater mobility. They're decent as an anvil unit...but not as good as Crypt Horrors that have greater frontage and can be raised much more efficiently. They don't really bring anything to the book that we don't already have.

This is why I say that they need something ELSE to make them work. Better S or AP to give them a bit of a punch against armour. Maybe eternal hatred to give them a bit more staying power, or even ASF? The lore honestly makes them sound like they're ASF high S monsters, rather than these middling S tanky things.

Compare it to the Chimera, for instance. 175 for the varghulf vs. 245 for the chimera with regen. For that extra 70 points it gets Fly, +1S, +1+D3 A, +1 LD and a 4+ armour save (though it loses a pip of WS, -2I). That 4+ armour save is especially telling, since it means that it's taking 50% again as many wounds against S3 troops as the varghulf.

If it were up to me I'd give it +2S, eternal hatred, and I5, and bump its price up to 200. That gives us a "bestial" anti-armour option that's more combat focused (i.e. not a terrorgheist, which is going to get nerfed to shit in the next book).

 

[najo]

The TG was published in the WD before it got into our army book. They didn't change it then. I seriously find the TG to be balanced. Just a lot of players don't know how to deal with it. The TG takes wounds easy enough and its scream is tied to its wounds. It has no defenses other than T6, reg6+. Yes, a good general is destructive with it. But most armies trash it quickly with shooting and magic.

If there was an fix to make to it, you could boost its reg to 5+ or 4+. Then make the scream the same as the banshee but still 2d6+wounds. That way the TG has some restriction on its scream a bit.

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

The TG was published in the WD before it got into our army book. They didn't change it then. I seriously find the TG to be balanced. Just a lot of players don't know how to deal with it. The TG takes wounds easy enough and its scream is tied to its wounds. It has no defenses other than T6, reg6+. Yes, a good general is destructive with it. But most armies trash it quickly with shooting and magic.

If there was an fix to make to it, you could boost its reg to 5+ or 4+. Then make the scream the same as the banshee but still 2d6+wounds. That way the TG has some restriction on its scream a bit.

I too find it to be very balanced. I only run one because I think it's actually very overrated, unless you're playing nothing but Ogres, Empire, Brets, and WoC. Against WE, DE, Lizardmen, Dwarfs, or any other gunline it's effectively dead points.

...that doesn't change everyone else in the world from thinking the thing's totally bent, and whining about it constantly.

 

[najo]

Ogres and Brets have the worse problems, though both have warmachines. WoC has a lot of answers - magic, Daemon Prince, high leadership. Empire has a lot of war machines, gunlines and magic.

I love the TG, love its fluff, love its rules. I used it really well, people cried broken and OP. My warhammer team figured out how to kill it effectively, we taught local players what to do and now my TG dies in 1-2 turns TG are not broken, just swingy. So, I purposely don't play with mine. Put in two units if hexwraiths instead.

 

[Skittelz1981]

I agree with Najo, although in my meta they still didnt figure out how to kill TG fast enough. I still luck out with it or simply pose too much threat with other things. On the other hand. TG is really not that impressive. Sure some targets are blasted away in a wink with a good enough roll. But how many times do you fly over to the next target and your shriek amounts to 0.
It has happened to me alot, thats 225 points on the table not doing what its supposed to, losing turns and failing at being the threat its supposed to.
any decent warmachineshot aimed at TG quickly renders it completely obsolete due to its damage being tied to its wounds, forcing you to regen it if you dont want to lose it, which often results in 3-4 turns of not shrieking or at least not at targets you want to shriek at.

TG is not OP at all and definately not broken. With its humongous base, impossibility to take cover its an easy target and hard to pitch in the right position. Being non-vampiric hurts it as well, depending on marchbubbles to actually be able to fly. In combat its completely worthless and virtually has no saves (i dont count 6+ regen as a decent save. Sure ive made that roll a few times and lucked out but thats a minorityreport)




Varghulf is one of those units i hardly use. Its just too mediocre for the insane price. 175 pts for 1 unit that has decent stats, but can never really cut through anything. Its actually only really good against infantry, which is unimportant in our gameplay tbh. Its a nice addition against WoC or Dwarves, since they have small units but the cost is just too much. And idd, Vargheists tend to be a better option. Since Undead can never really get into multiple charges with the tarpit-style combat, units like Varghulfs quickly loose their true effectivity on the battlefield. Theyre just left to handle stuff on their own and theyre just not good enough for that kind of work.
I dont want to use a Varghulf to hunt down chaff and other meaningless stuff, i want it to get into stuff and hurt, but i cant send him in alone in most cases. Bad




Coach, ah such a hard one. Ive used it a few times, succesfully most of that time but the pricing! omf the pricing. I agree, if it could just fly and have all the improved statlines from the getgo, yes. but relying on siphoning and maybe not getting the actual good stuff before turn 3-4, gah... what a waste.
Our chariots do tend to suck in combat, which is a shame.

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

The Varghulf is a slightly better Tomb Scorpion, which just makes me laugh. It should cost 115. The Black Coach shouldn't be all that far behind either. All those points you pay for what...ethereal? On turn 6? Or the ability to march...even though it's a chariot and can't ever march? Dub tee eff.

 

[Quinten]

The problem I have with the black coach is it is just to random. The fact that you have to roll 6 for it to be any good scares me. I never roll sixes anyways. It is great in storm of magic though. The vargulf is not very good either. Point for point vargheists will outlast and out fight it. The only remote use I saw for it was to fly it in the middle of the enemy lines to give him something that would tear through his warmachines if he didn't deal with it immediately and due to bestial fury he couldn't flank it. Then I realized that it could not fly (vargheists can outmaneuver it as well) and I haven't been able to think up decent strategy for it since. Personally I find the Terrorgeist to be best used behind your lines screaming into combats to support your troops and protecting flanks. This keeps it safe and allows you to march well keeping it within easy healing range of your spell casters.

 

[najo]

The Varghulf is a slightly better Tomb Scorpion, which just makes me laugh. It should cost 115. The Black Coach shouldn't be all that far behind either. All those points you pay for what...ethereal? On turn 6? Or the ability to march...even though it's a chariot and can't ever march? Dub tee eff.

Actually, its a lot better in that it can march. That's a pretty big deal.

The black coach is circumstantial. I'd like it to do a bit more too. Perhaps get the ride through ability of the hexwraiths?

 

[najo]

Poor TG.. If only undead were immune to poison! I've a lot of lizardmen and now wood elves in our meta. He doesnt last very long!

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

The "magic absorption" ability on it is really funky. Not a fan. I'd rather see it just start off ethereal, and gain abilities like the Frost Phoenix dependeng on the Winds roll.

 

[najo]

Agree. What if the magic absorption consumed the highest rolled dice whenever a spell was cast by either side? Each spell cast makes it grow? You could limit the distance to any wizard within 12" or 24". That make the coach something you can power up quickly if you sacrifice your magic or drive up in the enemy and mess with his. Something in that idea I like. Not quite there though.

Edit:

Another idea is allow it to feed on death. Either when units are destroyed or from wounds it causes (which ever is better for play) it could grow in power. The lore makes it sound like that is what it does.

Also, it needs ethereal movement sooner and it needs to be able to march instead of fly. What about this:

1) black coach can move as if it were ethereal.
2) coach gains +1 impact. Wraith and nightmares gain +1 S
3) gains killing blow and flaming
4) black coach can march
5) gains ethereal and magic resistance +1
6) gains ride through ability like hexwraiths / d6 hits from coach?

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

I kind of like the idea of a ride-through, though moreso in that it gives some thematic continuity between units:

Vargheists Special -> Varghulf Rare

Hex Wraiths Special -> Black Coach rare

Crypt Ghouls Core - > Crypt Horrors special -> Ghoul King lord


They need to have a different role though, and be complimentary in some way. Otherwise you end up like the Vargheist/Varghulf problem, where there's no reason to take the Varghulf since the Vargheists are just better in every way.

Some ideas that would make the Black Coach better without it just being a rare hex wraith:

1) Units with Ethereal can march within 12" of the Black Coach.

2) When a Black Coach gets affected by a spell, it and all ethereal units within 12" regain an additional wound.

3) At the end of any combat involving a Black Coach, roll a d6 for each model slain without the Undead or Demonic rule. On a 4+ that model rises again as a zombie, forming a unit around the coach. If the Black Coach dies these zombies are all immediately removed as casualties that don't count towards CR.

4) Whenever a '6' is rolled on a die in a casting attempt, roll a d6: on a 4+ you gain an additional die that can be used in the next casting or dispelling phase.

 

[Quinten]

Maybe a simple point drop on the black coach would suffice to fix it? It would then be even more OP in storm of magic games but the rules are written for normal games not storm of magic.