The Space Marine Debate.

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Sanai

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Oct 30, 2009
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I figured it would be nice to have a debate about Space Marines and their role in the hobby, and the people who collect/play them.
Please, let us have no flaming or idiocy in this thread.

Now, here are my thoughts

  • Space Marines are given unfair amounts of attention by Games Workshop, yes, this is a shame because this means other factions get neglected
  • Yes, they are played by a dissproportionate amount of players.
  • However, they are a good place for players to start. They are easy to play, they build player confidence, and are easy to paint, and can take any paint scheme you like.
  • Also, I feel that alot of people are unfair to Space Marine players. Yes, some people play them for less than noble reasons, but some of us actually play them for the same reasons people play any army, simply because we like the fluff and playstyle and minis. What is wrong with playing an army because you like it?
 
Looking at space marines, I think they looked down on as they are a very easy to use army. They have lots of toys, resilient, can be very offensive etc. Basically they have become too easy to play, as yes they want all the little kiddies to play them.

This does mean in turn, it gets looked down on by more experienced players, who like more tactically challenging armies. It makes some people angry who have spent a lot of money on their army, only for it to be ignored by GW (e.g Dark Eldar).

Yes, I have no doubt that there are some players who would want to collect them for fluff reasons. I still have to resist the lure of the Blood Angels which I like due to their fluff (I have no idea on their current rules).

But the problem is, there are many many marine players who do conform to the stereotype, which is what makes it difficult for those who do not.
 
My main point there DoN, is that it is unfair how those of us who do want to collect and play them for the right reasons get looked down on too. Its like some kind of snobby wargame elitism in some cases.
 
Oh yes it is unfair. However that is the way of the world. Some people see SM and make automatic assumptions which is wrong. They should at least take the time to speak to the person etc.

However there is little you can do to change peoples attitudes.
 
They also carry the stigma of being popular. Being popular means a greater amount of 'rotten eggs' will play the army.

Personally I do not mind them. They are a huge part of the background and flavour of the game and naturally gets put in the spotlight, ontop of generating a huge portion of GWs profits. In a perfect world GW would be able to grant everyone the same amount of attention, but its not so they do not as a result the gamers themselves are forced to carry the brunt of hostility of other gamers.

What we can do is speak up whenever people start ranting about space marines. Point out that people will play what they want to and picking a less popular army does not make you a superior player or hobbyist. Taste is a highly personal thing. The frequency of releases to a particular army is beyond the controll of the gamers themselves, as is, the content.

So let's spread the word. Space marine players are people too... Well, super human.
 
I myself get subjected to this a little, although not so much as other people since theres a whole load of people that play marines by me. Course, this one guy saw me with marines and didnt care about me playing any other armies...it seems like marines may be DoC for 40k, without the super-death power lists.
 
In-game popularity aside, I don't like how even the fluff seems to revolve entirely around the Space Marines. There's more to the Imperium that super human warriors going around killing stuff, but that seems to be the vast majority of what BL produces. And a lot of writers fail at even that(Multilaser Goto, anyone?)
 
Yknow, Goto actually popped up at the GameFAQs dawn of war forums once. Pretty cool guy, I think he actually acknowledged how...lets say, unfluffy his books are. But yeah, some of the new SM fluff is rediculas (Dante teaming up with battle weary Necrons, Sanguinor drop kicking avatars and bloodthirsters...)
 
Do all variants of Space Marines fit this? What about Chaos?


Although Necrons caught my interest strongly as well, I was compelled by Chaos for 40k. I'm more familiar with the fluff, as a lot crosses over from fantasy. Chaos seems very cool, more so than in fantasy, and the conversion opportunities are endless. I designed my theme/list before I knew how to play ( a friend made sure I didn't do something stupid).

I feel Chaos has less options than Vanilla Marines... though it still has plenty of flexibility. I just have a lot of fun with them, really. Thematically, and game wise. My play style is also very compatible with them.
 
I don't have a problem with marine players...I have a problem with little kids that think Blue marines are the best thing and will beat everything and don't listen to anything you tell them.

One told me to write the meanist list I could, saying he'd destroy it easily...He gave up turn 2 in a tantrum, I'd just burnt his commanders face of with a meltagun. They've got to learn one way or another...

Edit: Also the new blood angels are mean! Lost a squad of 7 beserkers on the charge to one of there dreadnoughts (Didn't even get chance to use the powerfist)...Then I found out it was a troops choice!
 
Rage is your friend. What you do is because it only has a 180 degree line of sight you make a unit in front of it lead it on a wild goose chase around the board until it is turned around enough for you to get a good shot at its back. It has to rage towards the nearest unit it can see. If it can only see one unit...
 
Sanai said:
My main point there DoN, is that it is unfair how those of us who do want to collect and play them for the right reasons get looked down on too. Its like some kind of snobby wargame elitism in some cases.

Totally agree. There are only two armies in 40k that appeal to me; Dark Eldar and Marines. Unfortunately for me when DE came out the models instantly put me off the army and until they're re-designed and re-released I've got no interest in building an army of them. I suspect that I'm not alone in this.

As for Marines, I started buying them with the fabled RTB01 boxed set when it came out and now have a rather unhealthy amount of Marines and vehicles from that era. During 1st/2nd edition when the new Marine variants came out people didn't whine about it, people actually applauded it.

I used to play against other Marine armies frequently and it never used to bother us, after all the Horus Heresy was just starting to happen in terms of fluff via the Space Marine game so it was all quite plausible in 40k.

I think the problem nowadays is that people are getting very frustrated at having older armies (Necrons, DE's, erm.. Squats) that haven't been supported by GW for many years now and every other 40k release by GW appears to be Marine related. Couple this with GW not really pushing 40k forward fluff wise and the whole thing seems to be stagnating.

I agree with all of Sanai's OP except that they're easy to paint. For some weird reason I find them really difficult to paint well!
 
Ossai said:
Rage is your friend. What you do is because it only has a 180 degree line of sight you make a unit in front of it lead it on a wild goose chase around the board until it is turned around enough for you to get a good shot at its back. It has to rage towards the nearest unit it can see. If it can only see one unit...

I realised this later, unfortunalty I hadn't got a lot left at that point, though it was very close in the end (objectives)...If he hadn't passed 5 out of 6, 4+ invunrables and if my greater deamon could destroy an armless dread faster (4 turns of combat!)...he couldn't.
 
Ah, the dice screwed you over. I see it all the time.

Best way to deal with misbehaving dice is this:

The first time one of them misbehaves you crush it with a hammer. Then whenever the rest start misbehaving you take the hammer out and put it on the table. The deterrant makes them realise they could be next.

Unfortunately this does have the sideaffect of many making a run for it under units and behind couches to get away from you...
 
Sanai said:
My main point there DoN, is that it is unfair how those of us who do want to collect and play them for the right reasons get looked down on too. Its like some kind of snobby wargame elitism in some cases.

Surely though the people who play Astartes for the wrong reasons also say that they do it for the fluff and because they like the army as well? In the end everyone starts to get lumped in as a rubbish player whether they're genuinely into the fluff, like yourself, or whether they're just doing it because they want to win...
 
Zanos said:
Yknow, Goto actually popped up at the GameFAQs dawn of war forums once. Pretty cool guy, I think he actually acknowledged how...lets say, unfluffy his books are. But yeah, some of the new SM fluff is rediculas (Dante teaming up with battle weary Necrons, Sanguinor drop kicking avatars and bloodthirsters...)

Dante teamed up with Necrons? Wow. As a Necron player, please can you tell me where to get more info? Just so i can NOT annoy Blood Angels playing friend...
 
In the new Blood Angels Codex, there is a reference to necrons and Dante teaming up against a greater enemy. Cant remember who they fought.
Also, the Sanguinor can drop kick avatars and bloodthirsters, if you roll well.
 
Personally I feel that after Codex SM 2 years ago ish, they focused so much attention on most of the mariney-all-encompassing-fluff they forgot to actually make the codexes good. Wolves hit hard but have issues holding objectives and getting the most out of themselves at the same time.

And now BA have issues getting any decent models on the table, since if they fill up with Tac Squads they sometimes lose CT's, which is what makes them soooo good. And if they fill up with the hard hitting stuff (like the silly Blood-talons-Librarion-Douchebag-weeeeeeeIcanFLY-Dreadnought) they get almost NO models on the table. I've seen armies of literally a Character, 5 sanguinary guard, 5 death company or somethings, and the dread. Might even have been 4 guard. That all adds up to 1000 pts ish, possibly over... they seem to have 'nids-syndrome (in that ALL of their compulsory, supposedly hard hitting troops choices SUCK) AND Vanguard-with-Jump-Packs-syndrome (in that they cost FAR too many points to be worth taking over other units in one.

I know I exaggerate, but I honestly think behind all the book-cover decent stuff, BA and Wolves both SUCK, although BA slightly more so.

And as for the Marines being DoC-in-40K, I totally disagree. As a Marine Player I like the way they play and am comfortable with it (as if any player isn't, really...), but I disagree they are the uber army because their fundamental advantages leave so many weaknesses that they don't again cover. But I also disagree on the fact they can make Uber-death lists. I can't see people in 2k pts competing with Sicarius, 4 Tactical Squads, a full size Assault termy squad and some Land-raiders of some sort. Sure its beatable but its pretty godamn annoying to see the second hardest tank to destroy in the game (im not going into the three Monolith list...) a couple of times over, one of the hardest combat units in the game, the most versatile troops 4 times over AND a character making them all Ld10, re-roll Sieze the Initiative and have a USR (who ontop of that can instant death anything with a S6 Power-weap attack if he's willing to get close).

The thing with 40k and fantasy is that whereas in fantasy there are top tier armies who are competitive and can make uber-death lists, but in 40k although some armies have advantages over others, most armies have the capacity to build an Uber-death list, which is what makes it that little more balanced and/or unbalanced, practically depending on which way each individual game goes.

Seems complicated. But 40k and fantasy aren't comparable in the way that they have good and bad armies, because, well, they're all good in anything upwards of 2k points.
 
to be fair up until i was i think 13 i was mad for the guard mostly commisar yarrick!! and then it was moved to the necron's, and from there i invested in a SM army space wolves. and yes i did power play i butchered armys very quickly with my CC gods lol.

but i got bored after a year and then moved onto Iron warriors and an orc army. i serpose i havnt really found an army i really like the feel of. i like having an equal mix of units and i can play SM because i like the tactics when you get involved with them. and the choice you get from the force
 
yeah but chaos and high elves in Warhammer get done over and over again... i think we should launch a mission we get every one to buy dark eldar stuff all over the GW world lol and get the dark eldar an upgrade lol, be quite funny.
 
i like armys that have a good story like my space wolves are very charcterful to fit their background i like all marines i just find ultramarines get too much attention.if any one wants to give marines ago they should go for the marines with their own codex like wolves or templars etc or stuff them all and shout waaaagh loud and whirl a big club.
 
Space Marines are okay in my book. However, I do feel that they are way more forgiving than most other armies.

I've thought about collecting a Death Company army for a long time.
 
The only Space Marine chapters that have my respect are the Imperial Fists and their descendants/successors
Templars, Soul Drinkers, etc.

In fact, despite my rants and etc.
I've heavily considered starting an Imperial Fists army and still am.

I mean c'mon. The Black Templars have completely shown the finger to the Codex Astartes and other Marine chapters.
They number from 5000-6000 brothers strong, yet spread out ( Crusades, etc. )
Inquisition hates 'em :tongue:
"You completely ignore the Codex 5 or 6 times over, yet we find no reason to suspect this is doing any harm, so we can't do anything! In fact, your Crusades are immensely successful, but we still hate you."

Rogal Dorn even almost practically started a Civil war against the Ultrasmurfs and friends because of their Codex Astartes.
 
...Odd. Back on topic, I respect the Blood Ravens (obviously, I play them) mainly because of Gabriel Angelos. The Sons of Dorn are nice and all, but what of the Salamanders? They have families and everything! Or do people just not like them because of the dreaded Vulkan list...
 

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