The Vampires - Casters & Close Combat characters.

[Caerdrath]

I'll introduce myself here first, as its one of my first posts. I've been lurking around your forum for quite a bit and read most of the recent VC articles. I've played VC for 2-3 years now, with a recent pauze until I bought the spearhead and so I am fully back on gaming now. I'd like to post the following article, as it is one of the things that I found hardest when composing an army :

The Vampires - Casters & Close Combat characters.

How to combine these two abilities?

Seeing that vampires are a huge point sink (those I see on the forum almost always end up between 150 and 200 points) we oughta make the most out of them.

I see a lot of 'caster only vampires' or 'close combat only' vampires in the current armylistposts. This imo is a bad thing. We should utilise as much of the new vampires as possible. With lords, this is easier then with heroes, but doable with the double item/bloodline allowance. So lets have a look at Heroes first.
A caster vampire, with say Dark accolyte, Raise skeletons/ghouls/creatures as bloodline powers and with a powerstone & scroll / bounditem (or any other casty combination you prefere). Is a vampire you do not want to have in combat. With his T4 and 2 wounds he'll go down like a granny on a frosty morning..
So basically you pay around 200 points for a lvl 2 mage with some goodies.
Same goes for Closecombat vampires. You can take a combat vamp with a decent save/weapon @ 50 points and take a bloodline to back his fighting prowess up for about the same points value. Which results in a 200 point vampire who can chop up a unit nicely and is a lvl 1 wizzard aswel ! Sounds better imo then the caster only vampire. At least you can put this guy into the thick of things without having to worry to much about him getting killed. And he can still cast 1-2 spells a turn and contributes to the PD/DD pool.
How about combining the two? Say, take a vampire with dark acolyte (lvl2) and raise *x* / and for melee we'll give him the flayed hauberk and a sword of.. Say might or whatever one you preferer.
Now you have a vampire who's a decent caster, and can still be let loose into closecombat. Okee, he's not an uber killing machine. But in my experience that's hardly ever needed.. And he's still a decent wizard. I think that this way, you'll get the most out of your vampire heroes. You have a lvl 2 mage for 100 points, and a heroe lvl closecombat monster for 100 points. That's worth a 200 point vampire! If you look at it like this, VC can take twice as many characters than other armies ;-)
There's also the question of 'special' kind of vampires, like a Scouting vampire / Flying vampire. Are they going to be worth their points? Is it worth 200 points to have a warmachine hunter? Depends. I'd like to know what you guys out there think about this..

Cheers for reading,

Caerdrath

 

[The Dead of Night]

Well the beauty of a vampire is that even if you do boost his magic up, as long as you spend points on protection, you have an excellent fighter mage. It isn't really very difficult.

One important thing to consider though is your plan, your army's strategy. When you create your list you should have a game plan in mind, this may revolve around a combat vampire or a magical one. The lists that include specialist vampires might well have the most effective strategies. There is no point in being good in two things when you can be brilliant in one and above average in the other.

Whilst being spread out might seem like you are covering all your bases, it just means your coverage is thin. However you should never completely ignore any aspect. Having a fragile general is like playing with fire.




"There's also the question of 'special' kind of vampires, like a Scouting vampire / Flying vampire. Are they going to be worth their points? Is it worth 200 points to have a warmachine hunter? Depends. I'd like to know what you guys out there think about this.."


I see a lot of potential for a scouting vampire. You would have to work out the ideal build (which I haven't yet decided on) things like M9 would be a very big help, as would terror and a few others.

But we need to think outside the box a little. Okay warmachine hunting is one excellent job he could do. WMs can be worth 50-150+ points depending on the army you're facing, so the vamp can certainly earn his points back. He could also get eaten by an Organ Gun... We'll assume though that you successfully plan your attack.

The vamp can also be deployed nicely on the flank, giving him an excellent position to cast raise dead (either strategically placed for a flank charge, or merely blocking los to the vampire). Remember wood elves get a terrain piece and the ability to move it around with spells, we summon our terrain and it fights back and moves on its own.

realistically the scout vamp could cause a lot of bother for the enemy and disrupt his tactics. he could be the new M9 vamp with GW. Swap the dire wolves for the ability to raise dead.

We'll see at any rate.

 

[Caerdrath]

''the lists that include specialist vampires might well have the most effective strategies. There is no point in being good in two things when you can be brilliant in one and above average in the other.''

I'll have to disagree with you here. I think its a waste to have a 200 points lvl 2 mage. Even when he's very good at his job. You should utilise his closecombat abilities aswel to make him worth his 200 points. Would you take a 200 pts empire lvl 2 mage?

The thing with vampires is that they wont be average in the other.. A lvl 2 vampire mage with some arcane items/bloodline powers can still be a very good fighter with just the right items... They're not going to be average at all!

So i'll have to stay with my point that its best to use vampires for both their Combat and Casting abilties and try to get the utmost out of both of them.

This mainly goes for heroes, since lords can easilly be tooled up to fill in any discription and still be worth his points,


Caer[/i]

 

[The Adept]

The problem is getting a save on the vampire. Without mundane equipment opstions, you're looking at either a bloodline power, or magic armour.

The bloodline is a problem because making the vamp a level 2 caster and giving him a Master power (which is IMO required for the vamp to truly work in the magic phase) take damn near all his bloodline.

The magic armour is a problem 'cos there are only so many cost effective armour. The flayed hauberk goes on my Lord (it's the best protection I can get him), leaving me with no real cost effective armours or wards. The Ld 7 vamps would suffer too much from stupidity, and the other armours just don't pul their weight for the points they cost.

Plus, I'm gonna run three caster vamps, with a fighty lord. I don't think there are three good non-flayed set ups for the vamps saves, without going into the bloodlines.

 

[Lord Fear]

Well there's two principles: do you want to use a character that is a "jack of all trades, master of none", or do you really want to specialise? When you specialise, you really reap the merits, e.g. a Vamp with Skullstaff, Lord of the Dead, Master of the Dark Arts, all those combine to give more than the sum of their parts. But to get there, usually you have to sacrifice protection or fighting. Usually this type of Vamp has the Helm of Command to pass on his WS to another unit, so the person playing that kind of build really does not want him getting into combat- which is a shame, I think. He might as well be a Necromancer Lord with 1 S3 attack, and a waste of all his base cost that includes hs fighting powers.

If you just want a decent all-rounder, then you can mix it up a little of course. In fact as with your suggestion, in a Lordless army list I'll be using in a campaign, my General will be a Dark Acolyte Lord of the Dead with Flayed Hauberk. Sword of Might would've been a nice addition too but because I didn't want the list to be too unfriendly I held off overloading all my characters with top magic upgrades- but otherwise it'd be a fine combo.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

I agree that the Lord can be tooled up to be effective all round, the build I'm looking at is:

Master of the Dark Arts, Forbidden Lore, Master power for Skellies (can't remember the name), Skull Staff, Nightshroud and Sword of Might plus extra magic level. This makes him a great caster with 5 PD, 7 spells with +1 to cast plus in combat he's pretty much always hitting first with S6 attacks. I am going to have backup in form of necro with vanhels plus I may be taking the lore of beasts to turn the lord into a one man blending machine.

Hero's are different, I think spreading things around means that the vamp doesn't excel and therefore isn't worth its points. For example my next vamp will be:

Dark Acolyte, Avatar of Death, Helm of Commandment, Powerstone

I don't want this guy in combat, he has armour just in case but other than that he sits behind the GG in protective small skellie unit. may not look good in your eyes but when the GG are hitting on 2+ with their GW and banner of the barrows plus this guy providing magical support they are much more effective then if he was in the front row with them.

I think a scout in larger armies (2000+) can be worth it, I would field this:
Hunter in the Dark, Supernatural Horror, Armour of Night, Talisman of Lynci, Sword of Battle (think thats the one with +1A). Starting off in terrain and then moving in for the kill he's always at least -3 to shoot at, can cause terror in the battle line (generally missile units / war machines don't have exceptional Ld) plus that extra attack can help wipe a crew in one turn plus with M9 he can get to where he needs to and still stand a good chance of getting out of there afterwards. I will definately use this in my 3000 pt army.

 

[Synthesis]

That's interesting Disciple, we've got almost identical Lord/Hero setups .... I just didn't take a magical sword (I use fire instead most of the time), and the hero vampire rocks far more than he would seem to on paper.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

That's interesting Disciple, we've got almost identical Lord/Hero setups .... I just didn't take a magical sword (I use fire instead most of the time), and the hero vampire rocks far more than he would seem to on paper.

Well I'm still uncertain about the magic sword as ideally I will be wantin to cast Bears Anger, FSoR on him but then I thought when I take the Lore of Metal which I know I will against dwarfs or the times I stick to the vampire lore I want my vamp to have that extra kick in combat, still thinking about that black periapt though.........

 

[Synthesis]

Well you can't have it alongside the skullstaff, they're both arcane items

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

True - sticking with the sword of might it is.

 

[The Dead of Night]

''the lists that include specialist vampires might well have the most effective strategies. There is no point in being good in two things when you can be brilliant in one and above average in the other.''

I'll have to disagree with you here. I think its a waste to have a 200 points lvl 2 mage. Even when he's very good at his job. You should utilise his closecombat abilities aswel to make him worth his 200 points. Would you take a 200 pts empire lvl 2 mage?

No, I wouldn't. But you are comparing apples to oranges. Vampire has 3 WS6 S5 attacks. If you give him the flayed Hauberk (my lord gets bloody hauberk) then he has T4 and a good save to boot. you still have 25 points for items and your 50 points of bloodline power which can all toward magic.

So you can have. Sceptor de Noirot. Black Periapt. Tomb blade maybe (I'm not a big fan, but it has its uses), sword of kings makes him scary to other characters, even fighty ones, sword of might is always good. talisman of the Lycni might help him get into annoying positions, where he can disrupt the enemies flanks. Dispell scroll. power stone?

Lots of options and most a magic related, either directly or indirectly.

+ of course your 50 points for bloodline powers are still untouched



The thing with vampires is that they wont be average in the other.. A lvl 2 vampire mage with some arcane items/bloodline powers can still be a very good fighter with just the right items... They're not going to be average at all!

I said above average.

So i'll have to stay with my point that its best to use vampires for both their Combat and Casting abilties and try to get the utmost out of both of them.

And you will, whether you like it or not. Fact is you get an all round character when you get a vampire. If you focus him toward one he will still be above average at the other.

Even if you make absolutely no consideration for magic, ie make him a combat oriented character. he is still a lvl 1 mage with 2 spells... above average for a combat character wouldn't you say? Able to fight quite well and keep his troops healed to boot, he can also create a flanking unit of zombies to tip the scales in his direction for the ensuing combat...

And the opposite situation is true also.

That is why you can focus the vamp in one direction and still be using all of your 200 points.

 

[Caerdrath]

I think we can agree then ^^ The whole post was made to make a point about vampires being good at both Combat and Magic and should be used accordingly. Mayb my wording of the problem was'nt right, im not a native english speaker.

I agree that a lvl 2 wizard with lots of arcane goodies is still worth it in combat, that’s why I said we should utilise him like that as much as possible by giving him armour and/or a save and not let him lurk around the back (with the obvious exception of the Helm of Command ofcourse)

Caer

 

[Kain]

Personally, I agree somewhat with what the original post is about.

I run with a caster/combat Lord, 2 caster combat heros and one dedicated caster hero.

My set-up is basically

Lord
Level 3 Wizard
Forbidden Lore
Avatar of Death- Great Weapon
Infinite Hatred
Lord of the Dead
Book of Arkhan
Cad. Cuirass
Crown of the Damned

Vampire-
Level 1
Lord of the Dead
Summon Ghouls
Avatar of Death- Great Weapon
Flayed Hauberk
Dispel Scroll

Vampire
Dread Knight
Summon Ghouls
Blood Drinker

Vampire
Dark Acolyte
Avatar of Death
Black Periapt
Dispel Scroll

Here your getting 10 power dice on the average and 1 bound spell. For 2000-2250, that's pretty good and your getting some really good combat. You have better than average magic defense with 8 dispel and 2 scrolls and your magic phase is pretty good also. I run with Skeletons and Ghouls for core and I have 2 guys who can cast into each reliably on a 3 with a single dice and one guy who's purpose is to cast destructive magic, movement spell, or heal if necassary.

The dread knight hero goes with the Blood Knights which is why he's equipped that way. But all in all this is what I think a well-rounded system looks like for heros and still has a great magic phase at that.

 

[Gree]

What about this?

Vampire
Dark Acolyte
Lord of the Dead
Walach's Bloody Hauberk
Biting Blade

OR

Vampire
Red Fury
Walach's Bloody Haunberk
Biting Blade

 

[Kaptain Von]

I dislike the Biting Blade on any Vampire who doesn't have Infinite Hatred. In fact, I dislike magic weapons on any Vampire who doesn't have Infinite Hatred, unless those magic weapons happen to be Swords of Striking.

 

[kerill]

I think its worth pointing out that there is a third archetype, the CR vampire. Something like:

Battle standard
Walking Death
Dread Knight (for the save mostly since I've already used the hauberk by this point but the movement is useful for getting to key combat areas, as is the no terrain penalty)

Then for magic items you could go for the warbanner or cursed book and item of choice (black periapt/dispel/power stone/weapon).

So you have a mobile 2/3CR in addition to 4 attacks (steed) which can be combined with the massive CR that undead can already get. In a unit of skellies with dead legion thats an almost guaranteed +8 before any other modifiers. Its similar to the high elf version except you are also getting a spellcaster and an extra dispel die as well as better attacking and defensive stats.

You could also have the cairn wraith support unit- vampire, ethereal, bsb. With the +1CR and -1crumbling +vampires spellcasting that unit of wraiths will be hard for almost anything to shift (although this seems more of a one trick pony).

 

[Mikael.K]

I will start of with a 1k army and I´ll have 2 vamps in there. One will be the acolyte, lord of the dead, hauberk and sword of might. The other im not sure about yet, maybe a warmachine hunter. Master of the black arts would be great, he could stay beeing a level 1 since he produce his fair share of PD, leaving the pooldice for my other vamp.

 

[Trevy the Great]

I have played Tyranids in 40k for about 2 years. The one main rule for making a good Tyranid army list is; 'Don't generalize, specialize!' Making a Hive Tyrant that can shoot and get into close combat is a bad idea, it's better with one role.
I beleive the same goes for Vampires. Specializing a vamp in either clos combat or casting is the way to go. I had a great deal of success with a vamp with Red Fury, Flayed Hauberk and a Tomb Blade in a large unit of skellies. The vamp could regen skellies if the numbers got too low with IoN but was mainly a close combat character. I think I would not have had as much success if I had generalized with that character.

 

[Silent Requiem]

Sorry for the necromancy, but I thought thais was a very key thread.

I chose VC because of the versatile characters. I have spent years playing the most flexible and least specialized army in 40k: Grey Knights. In a game that normally rewards specialization (and often gives you no other option) I managed to be successful with a "generalist" army, and I LOVE the play style.

I accept that there will be more combat-y characters than mine... but these characters will give me a strong magic phase. There will be more magic-y characters, but even if they shut down my magic, I can still contribute strongly in assault.

I am just starting off, and there are a huge number of play stye decisions I need to trial and decide on (ghouls/skeletons, wolves/bat swarms, hw/gw GG, etc), but I am running my first vampire hero (to be upgraded to lord in due course) with:

Forbidden Lore
Lord of the Dead (or equivalent)
Flayed Hauberk
Black Periapt
Biting Blade

This gives me a consistent magic phase, because I am guaranteed the spells I want, and I make my 3 pd (at 750 points) go further by using 1 dice to summon. If my opponent is magic weak, I can use 4 pd (thanks to the periapt), or up my dispel dice if I am getting locked out (3 DE wizards at 750 points will do that). I also rock at assault, and can safely lead a GG or skeleton unit.

This is definitely a different play style from specialization, but it means that my character is doing something useful in every turn of the game, as opposed to a combat character who simply maneuvers for the first few turns, or a mage that has moved too far from the "eye of the storm" to avoid combat.

-Silent Requiem

 

[TMS]

While vampires are certainly quite capable of fending for themselves in close combat I usually put them in a purely casting role unless its a vampire lord fully geared out for melee. Toughness 4 and 2 wounds makes our hero vampires a bit too fragile for my liking, especially when factoring in their points cost and the importance they have for the army. We've also got problems with getting any decent protection for them apart from a 2+ armour save. Too many times have I lost my hero vampires to the pesky dark elf hydras, heheh.

Therefore I prefer to use a wight king if I want a fighty hero. Toughness 5 and 3 wounds are just brilliant.

 

[Zaggo]

I often find myself striking a balance between defence and arcane prowess. This is largely due to the way that I play. More often than not I find my vamp. characters at the head of a massed, ranked up unit. To this end I don’t necessarily need to kit them out for martial excellence. The reason being that the unit can carry it’s character with its combat res. And the vamp. can usually tip the combat in my favour if he needs to; rather than go blasting in there dealing x rerollable wounds at ridiculous strength. (Of course there is nothing wrong with this, and I used such a general in a recent 3k battle – but this build does detract somewhat from the vamp.’s all round nature.)

If you do want to strike such a balance between arcane ability and survivability then I would strongly recommend using the nightshroud. Imo this magic item is amazing, especially as it only costs 20 points. Forcing any enemy to strike the bearer last is really good – esp. if you have a decent chance of killing the adversary in one go! Also if multiple enemies wish to strike such a character while he stands in the front rank of a unit, this means they all have their initiative reduced to 1 for the remainder of the phase – very nice…

All for 20 points

 

[Geraint]

Absolutely. I tried out the Nightshroud for the first time a couple of weeks ago - against High Elves - and I loved it. It's a really nasty surprise for a player who's aiming to effectively charge and kill your vampire alone and ignore the rest of his unit. Suddenly, High Elves strike after your unit, which with T3 and poor armour often means they're dead before they can target your vampire.

 

[Chris_Wraith]

With my Graveguard Deathstar army, my vamps are all in the Graveguard unit with the Necromancer, which means they are pretty safe. My lord is purely a caster, the necromancer obviously casting, and the other two vampires are combat orientated (one of these being the army standard). Totally eggs in one basket, but hey what a basket.