Vampire counts army book? your changes.

[Tomj8937]

If you were in charge of making the vampire counts army book what would you change in it and why?

My changes would be the following:

First off remove the sword blood drinker and give all vampire's the following rule:

Thirst for blood:
Vampire's drink blood to regenerate themselves and heal there wounds as well as to feed there addiction. To represent this, every 6 rolled to wound in close combat restores a wound to the vampire. If multiple vampires are in the unit roll separate for each one and restore the wound to the vampire in question (meaning you cant decide your vampire with 1 wound is going to heal himself when the vampire lord with 3 wounds has rolled the 6.)

Give a choice of having a squad of weak willed vampire thralls to act as a bodyguard unit for your vampire's, as well this rule:

Blood Sacrifice:
Vampires are not above sacrificing there own kind to helping cast spells and healing themselves. If there is a vampire character in the unit and wants to cast a spell, he may remove one vampire model to add D6 to the casting roll (before he rolls to determine if the spell is successfully cast). Also, If The player wish's he may instead choose to remove a model and regain a wound (these are optional these actions, also you cannot remove 1 model to regain a wound then remove one again to add D6 to cast in the same turn.)

More coming soon when I can think of them.

But please add your own rules and ideas for units!

 

[Pietr Von Carstein]

This is the wrong forum . Maybe it should be moved to bloodlines
On changes , I would bring back the non von Carstein vampires and lord level necros ( like we are doing in the blood line armies project ) , reduce skeleton cost to 7ppm just to make them cheaper than ghouls who are usually better , give the varghulf swiftstride , give blood knights initiative 5 and finally reduce the cost of zombies or make them more worthwhile .

 

[Capt Rubber Ducky]

Off to bloodlines it goes!

[mod] Thread moved [/mod]

I would definatly also give bloodknights I5 and I would also give them full plate armour. I also agree on the vargulf, what GW should done is said anything M7+ gains the swift stride rule.

Rather then make zombies cheaper I would give them a few stat ups becase however cheap they are with the current stats I still wouldn't take them.

 

[Stacius]

I would reduce Skeleton's to six point's per model, +1 for a spear.
Zombie's are rubbish now so down to 2 point's each for them.
Introduce a rule where by any model wishing to target a Vampire (or the general) and there are any other model's in the way cannot target them. Maybe an enhanced "Look out sir" to represent the vamp moving at super speed and throwing a minion in the way. Or a Necro Lord hastly raising a corpse just to take the attack. As in they always get a "Look out, Sir" roll, so no sniper or Lore of Death sniping.
Lord level Necro's for sure.
Bow/crossbow armed skellie's at about 8 point's per model. They would hardly ever hit. but at least give a good option to the spear one's for a bunker.
Removal of unstable on Vamp's.
Immunity to poison and certain spell's again. It make's me laugh when my Skellie's get hit with any Lore of Nurgle spell or some Dark elf poison.
A new banner that upgrade's fear to terror maybe?
Also bring back the bloodline's, and bloodline specific magic item's.

 

[markvoncarstein1223]

i would remove the "dead" characters in the list (Vlad, Konrad and Isabella) and come up with some newer, fresher special characters. perhaps some of the ones mentioned in the book's background

 

[vonkrolok]

Right now I think vampire powers are the ones that are gonna get the biggest overhaul. There is no actual power to make a melee vampire as opposed to a caster and if one considers the Marzielle section you can realize that it's not about powers, but equipment... which is wrong to me: equipment is in character options, powers affect the character in a supernatural way.

So I'd go very much for the following 3 powers

Inhuman Speed: grants a 4+ ward saving against ranged attacks (warmachines included) due to the speed the vampire moves on the battlefield, this also results in +1A

Inhuman strength: grants +1S to the vampire

Inhuman resistance: grants +1T to the vampire

something like 50, 35, 25 points accordingly

The I definitely vote for a unit of foot low level vamps like for the blood knights, nice idea to sacrifice a vamp for some buffing (being W or power dice).
Warmachines should also be implemented, some kind of ballista maybe with reduced strength (mouldy wood) but with some special rule.
Necromancers should also be modified... some may want to have an army lead by one of these guys... like in the glorious past.

EDIT: I wouldn't remove Vald, Konrad and Isabella for background reasons, but I would definitely add some more of the old guys

 

[desfer]

i totally agree with removing unstable rule from vampires since it doesnt make any sense. Poison attacks affecting skeletons is a joke.
Also i like the idea of a supernatural speed vampiric power.It can be something like a parry save, but with a higher ward save, +4 for example? Having ASF rule as a result of that power would be reasonable too. Definitelly some new special characters should be added. Vampires could have armor by default, lets say heavy armor, not only trhough powers or magic items.

 

[Count Darvaleth]

BRING BACK BLOODLINE POWERS!!!! BRING THEM BACK!!!

So, yeah, I'd have the old bloodlines back.

 

[Sanai]

The only changes I would make is to add master necromancers, give zombies immunity to combat resolution, give zombies the ability to self replenish their own numbers when they win a combat and somehow make skeletons more effective.

 

[krisbot4000]

give zombies poisoned attacks and "At the end of any combat round in which a zombie unit inflicts casultys from zombie attacks add d6 zombies to the unit. "

let characters join zombies.

give us the option of taking a non-caster vampire lord.
(easy enough to do, drop his points by X and give him a X point option to make him a caster )

give us the option to take a lord level necromancer.

 

[Sanai]

d6 zombies is too much, what if they only do one wound in the combat?
It should be dx, with x being the number they won the combat by.

 

[MadLarkin]

Blood lines similar to marks in chaos (in addition to a few generic vampire powers kept)

Abhorash as a character on par with Archaeon (change the fluff so that he comes out of retirement!)

Red Duke as character

Return of Zacharias the Everling as a character

Better Zombie Dragon (he gets poked to death too easily)

Skellies reduced to 5-6 points. Give a few more weapon options (halberds, etc...)

Zombies given regeneration (5+ or 6+) and every kill adds a model to their ranks (with current stats, aren't going to kill much). Everything else about them is pretty good.

Vampires don't crumble sounds good.

Necromancers are alive or don't crumble as well.

Ghouls changed back to live, fear causing possibly frenzied troops (preferred them as skirmishers as well)

Bat swarms removed or made worth it. Just taking up space right now.

Banshee made into a hero, cairn wraiths kept as a unit.

Dire wolves made worth it (reintroduction of slavering charge or devastating charge and base S4)

No fast cav, but keep fell bats as they are but maybe at 15 points a model

Grave guard given ability to take halberds and full plate.

Blood Knights increased to I5 with foot as base (say 30 points a model, extra 20 per model gets them a barded warhorse)

Undead monstrous infantry would be interesting (remember the undead werewolf model?)

zombie giant would be cool modelling possibilities.

1 or 2 more types of mounts would be interesting

Summon undead horde removed. Invocation and raise dead has multiple power casting levels.

Really doubt it, but what would be bad ass if curse of years had multiple power levels and one changed its effects to RIP every enemy unit within 12" takes its effects.

But mainly Introduction of live state troops (the vampire counts do own Sylvania as well as other kingdoms. they also need live troops to protect their hordes while they rest in the day and to maintain a level of normalcy when kingdoms look upon them when they don't want to go to war.)

 

[autti]

Zombie's are rubbish now so down to 2 point's each for them.

I think zombies are broken and wouldn't take them for 2 points either. Some of the ideas posted above about how to fix them are a better than just adjusting the cost IMO.

For me it seems to always be ghouls for core and grave guard for special. The only variation comes from tooling up lords/heroes and choosing between rare units, and this gets repetitive pretty quickly. (I know I could be more adventurous when creating the army list, but I never do :/ ) So my wish would be more diverse, yet competitive core and special units.

Oh, and a book where the pages don't fall off after few weeks, if it's not too much to ask?

 

[Anilar]

As a wood elf player, I would like to see the Undead become slower, more expensive, easier to kill, say buh and they crumble :lol:

Well jokes aside, and we are still 6th edition army book cursing for wood elves.
I agree on many of the suggestions.
@Tomj Dont like thirst of blood, with all those abilities out there giving extra attacks, and with healing potions and healing spells, short of a KB or a totally sick magic defense, my faulty math logic tells me, it would be next to impossible to kill that vampire.
Removing crumble and a overhaul on abilities and items should be enough. Remember that at least some of the greater daemons should still be able to handle a unsupported vampire.

Immunity to poison for skeletons, thou quite fluffy will not happen. Nothing have immunity, otherwise powerful daemons, dryads(they are just spirits) etheral things, steamtank, hellcannon(not the crew), probably some of the skaven contraptions should all be immune to poison. And poison is just a word chosen for a rule, that could also indicates the use of things like acid and blessed weapons that breaks the magic of skellies.

What I would include for skellies would be a 6+ ward save vs bows, guns and crossbows, not warmachines and the like. Would make them slightly more durable, and could be explained with them being hard to hit anything useful. I know current fluff is something like a arrow can pierce the magic binding them.

Oh and if I was the writer of the Armybook, I would include some of the characters from the council roleplay, that would be cool. :konrad:

/edit just added a bit to the skellies

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Hmm, I was actually looking at this myself the other day, here's a few of the things I would like to see:

Bloodlines back BUT with Carsteins filling the Jack of All Trades category. By that I mean in the 7th / 8th people like being able to create a mixture of vampires, and so they could be able to by taking the Carsteins who could have access to a level 4 caster, or buffed for combat. But they would not excel in these areas like the other Bloodlines.

Vampire Lord – New Option

M6 / WS8 / BS5 / S6 / T6 / W4 / I7 / A4 / Ld10

Level 3 wizard

Bloodline Powers & Magic as per current VC Count

Reason: I have always felt that as an army so reliant on characters, that we should have the option of an extremely powerful character, as we did in previous editions. Especially in bigger games there are so many things that can take down our lords they need some extra oomph. I also feel it is justified by the fluff as vampires are meant to get stronger and tougher as they get older, hence this would be a very old vampire. Of course to make it fair he would have to be fairly pointed, and depending on the costs perhaps a restriction to stop him being in games that too small points. Think of him as a bit like VC’s greater daemon! The wizard level should be balanced with the new bloodlines.

Master Necro - basic wizard stats, level 3 upgradable to level 4. However to fit in with the being subservient to VC something like the following rule:

Necromancers always follow the rule of the vampires if one should happen to be present. If there are any vampires in the same army as Master Necromancer, the vampire with the highest leadership must be the general, even if the vampire's leadership is lower than the Master Necromancer.

Count: Have an extra wound, points adjusted. Again to increase survivability on this important model.

Hero: I also think he should have an extra wound. At the moment he is struggling for survivability against Horde attacks, especially when compared to the much cheaper Wight King. I think an extra wound would fix that, but still leave the Wight King as a viable choice due to his increased Toughness.

General Character Rule: Any unit they join may march. It makes sense that Wight Kings and Necros would have the willpower to make units they are in march.

Skeletons: Add special rules "Legions of the Dead": The enemy sees endless ranks of skeletons blah blah, basically means skeletons can gain upto +4 CR for ranks. Give them the upgrade option for Heavy Armour. I think this would go some way to balancing the unit with Ghouls as they would be a much tougher anvil unit, leaving the Ghouls for offense. Possibly allow then to have free command?

Ghouls: leave as is, except allow one unit to upgrade to scouting. I can imagine the scavangers running ahead for choice food, would really help against gunlines.

Zombies: Increase toughness back to 3, allow characters to be placed in the units again (stupid rule anyway). Reduce to 3 points.

Dire Wolves: Grant Fast Cav rule, give Slavering Charge rule where they gain +1A and double their Intiative on the Charge.

Corpse Cart: Create some different upgrades, maybe bring the total to 4, a bit more variety. Either make the Miasma an innate feature or drop it as it seems a waste with having to use PD. Also give it a special rule that its regen is conferred to its rider to it is actually a viable option for the Necro.


Well that turned out longer than I thought Anyway I have more ideas but that will do for now.

 

[waaanial00]

Personally would like them to change lore of Vampires to include the new power up mechanism mostly.

- ION to be powered up to Summon Undead Hoard and a midway point possibly being able to add D3 wounds to Vamp units etc
- Raise Dead to be powered up to allow the raising of non Zombie units
- VHDM to be move by default and power up to be ASF in combat, I also think that it shouldnt work stack with a failed charge ie if you have failed a charge once you shouldnt be able to VHDM to get it into combat (no matter how useful that is)
- Gaze of Nagash to get a beefed up, with range and potency, version as well
- Wind of undeath could become a Hex, with the raising of spirit hosts covered by a potential ION level.
- We need a decent buff to stop us having to resort to using Forbidden Lore all the time.

I would like a way of getting access to different lores without gaining access to all of the spells for cheaper. Forbidden Lore is excellent but I fear that it might get costed up and a light version of being able to take a different lore might be nice.

I dont want immunity to poision as its a game balancing mechanism rather than a fluff issue. Our humble dead things would suddenly become more expensive if that were to happen.

The ideas for self sustaining zombies is a great one, though I do believe that they should be affected by the normal combat resolution rules. They should be made much cheaper though because they are garbage in game but awesome in model format and fluff. Where a giant rat fights better than a skeleton and much better than a zombie we have a balance issue.

I think we need a larger list of more diverse Magic items, we are supposed to have pillaged/hoarded/invented a bunch of potent weapons/armour/trinkets over the long life and I always find that the magic items are rather restrictive.

Keep and potentially expand upon the bloodline powers section. I have not experienced true bloodlines but I like the ability to configure a vanilla Hero/Lord to be capable of doing many different things. I have never understood why GW have to make broken Special Characters when they could design their big uns in this fashion, I wont go into my configurable Space Marine Captain rant here (Must....HOLD....BACK!!!!) but its something simple that allows people more choice and would sell more standard kits.

Make a few things living. Why is it that my Ghouls are dead? Why is it that my Necromancer is unstable and immune to psychology (they are afraid of death, for crying out loud thats why they became necros in the first place).

Keep the mechanism to allow non Vampire led armies. I am not sure if they took this out due to laziness or design but its a great mechanism, dont change it! However allow for a Necro Lord without allowing him to become the general, a powerful Necromancer is still down the pecking order to a Hero based Vamp.

Make a tougher Wight Lord please. They are cool and I would love to have a really powerful Wight lead my army instead of having to take a Vampire Lord (as cool as they are).

Add a non magic ranged option, even if its crap. See my thread for more details. I dont want it for efficiency and I certainly dont want my combat prowess messed with, I just want a fun unit of pathetic bowmen to try and roll some 6's with

Its all I can think of at the moment. I am trying to be realistic and balanced, of course I want my army to be more powerful but not at the risk of becoming so broken that I get no opponents.

 

[vampire lord bezza]

I would like to see:
A master necro lvl 3 option to go to 4
option to choose combat or magic vamps to option different pts
option that vamp heros can be come lvl2 with out DA
more variaty of magic items etc.
few new vamp powers e.g ASF rule on and possably and 4+ ward save against shooting attacks if on own (could b new rules 4 armour of night)
cheaper zombies about 2-3pts possiable T3 with self raising the raise would b half of unsave wounds rounded up bcause of some fluff like the brain of the dead was to badly destroyed that only half be came zombs bcause the zombs have eaten others!
skelis about 5-7pts, immune to poison and have 6+ ward against shooting and more option heavy armour bow/halberds etc. for extra point
more balanced core units
corpse cart reduced to about 50-60pts bcause new bound spell rules and more options than 2 that it has say 1 where get +1 to MOVD rolls and added +1S on charge to repersent the spikes etc. piecing bodies
blood knight have on foots counterpart would b amazing like GG and BK's have. they would be about 40pts each
vargulf with fly rule
none crumberling lord or hero's
more special choice e.g like HE have
zombie gaint would also b cool

I have only just started vamp counts aswell so don't no about bloodline rules

 

[MadLarkin]

I think we have some of the best magic items in the game, but I would like to see our vampire powers get expanded on and have the ability to buy mundane weapons without using vampire powers.

 

[talking_dog]

Vampire Counts Book,

Standard Troops

Zombies
Reduced to 3 points and increased to WS2, T3, Also they can overrun and destroy units like normal units,
they can be lead by characters.

Skeletons
Reduced to 5 points with the options for light armour, Shields, Spears, Heavy Armour, Halberd, and two Handed
weapons.

Skeletal Horsemen
Skeletons on Skeletal Steeds Light Armour, Shields, 16 ppm, May Have Spears (1 ppm) or Lances (2ppm)

Dire Wolves
+1 Strength on the Charge, same points cost, count as undead Infantry for being raised,

Blood Knights
Get Full Plate


Vampires

Return of Bloodline powers, With Von Carstein being the Standard "Film Vampires"

Cost of a Lord is reduced to 145
Cost of a Count is reduced to 70
both can buy extra magic levels at 40 points a Level
(You could buy a Level 4 Vampire count) or a Level 1 Vampire Lord


Necromancers

Necromancers need to take one spell for the necromancer spell list the others can be Necromancer or Lore of Death.

Necromancers are 55 points for a level 1 with the option to buy magic level 2 for 35 points
or
Necromancer Lord, 175 for a level 3 can buy an extra level for 35 (this would be a random spell off lore of the Vampire
or Lore of Death


Vampire and Necromancers have "Sense of Survival" skill

Sense of Survival,
Once the unit surrounding the Character is destroyed they take a break tests, eg Unit of 2 skeletons and a Vampire
loses combat by 5, the Skeletons are destroyed and the Vampire takes a break test at -3


Sylvanian Levy

The Vampires can choose any Foot troops from the Empire army list which are not State troops or Special
(Pretty much this is Free Company and Archers)

May Choose Cannons and Mortars as rare choices

 

[vampire lord bezza]

Vampire Counts Book,

Standard Troops

Zombies
Reduced to 3 points and increased to WS2, T3, Also they can overrun and destroy units like normal units,
they can be lead by characters.

Skeletons
Reduced to 5 points with the options for light armour, Shields, Spears, Heavy Armour, Halberd, and two Handed
weapons.

Skeletal Horsemen
Skeletons on Skeletal Steeds Light Armour, Shields, 16 ppm, May Have Spears (1 ppm) or Lances (2ppm)

Dire Wolves
+1 Strength on the Charge, same points cost, count as undead Infantry for being raised,

Blood Knights
Get Full Plate


Vampires

Return of Bloodline powers, With Von Carstein being the Standard "Film Vampires"

Cost of a Lord is reduced to 145
Cost of a Count is reduced to 70
both can buy extra magic levels at 40 points a Level
(You could buy a Level 4 Vampire count) or a Level 1 Vampire Lord


Necromancers

Necromancers need to take one spell for the necromancer spell list the others can be Necromancer or Lore of Death.

Necromancers are 55 points for a level 1 with the option to buy magic level 2 for 35 points
or
Necromancer Lord, 175 for a level 3 can buy an extra level for 35 (this would be a random spell off lore of the Vampire
or Lore of Death


Vampire and Necromancers have "Sense of Survival" skill

Sense of Survival,
Once the unit surrounding the Character is destroyed they take a break tests, eg Unit of 2 skeletons and a Vampire
loses combat by 5, the Skeletons are destroyed and the Vampire takes a break test at -3


Sylvanian Levy

The Vampires can choose any Foot troops from the Empire army list which are not State troops or Special
(Pretty much this is Free Company and Archers)

May Choose Cannons and Mortars as rare choices

like some of those ideas especially Sylvanian Levy

 

[talking_dog]

like some of those ideas especially Sylvanian Levy

I would Add, levy troops can be led by Vampire or Necromancers but not by Wight Lords, they are not undead so need to take tests and if the flee they will take the characters with them.

I am tempted to say you can buy Empire Heroes, must deployed in a Levy unit, Can't Buy full plate, can only get magic items from the main rule book, but I think that would be a step too far, would be interested in Views on that?

 

[Danceman]

o_o

Much like Sanai I do not feel the need to change a whole lot. While this list is purely hypthetical some of the changes in this thread are going to make the list unnecessarily flexible and strong and, also, goes too far to cover our weaknesses and/or tread on the territoriers of other armies. Some changes proposed are quite frankly unreasonable(we do not really want to go back being known as 'teh cheese' do we?).

1. Add in bloodlines(as per the 6th edition book). This could include the old Vampire Lord version as well, however, it should only be slightly better. Like an extra attack and wound. No vampire has been S and T6 since the era of herohammer.
2. Reduce skeletons in cost by 1-2 points.
3. Up zombies toughness to T3.

While I can see the temptation of adding a lot of changes, one must not forget the rest of the armies and what they have to deal with. I am especially thinking of fluff VS gameplay VS rules and, in the end, balance.

We need a decent buff to stop us having to resort to using Forbidden Lore all the time.

Lore of the Vampires is probably the best lore in the game for us. Insanely low casting values, multi-casts and each and every spell have a defined purpose. Having VDM as a signature spell would be insane(from an opponents perspective) and I cannot see why it would replace our true signature spell of IoN. While I might seem blunt I just couldn't believe my eyes. Finally, each spell does not need a powered up version. Do not expect to keep this lore the way it is in the next book, enjoy it while it lasts.

Anyways,
Let's keep the changes to a civilized level, shall we? Again, perhaps I am wrong and we really need all these changes.

Cheers, D.

 

[TMS]

I'd like to see a return of the Bloodlines, although I wouldn't want it to work like it did in the 6th edition book where all of the Vampires in your army had to be from the same line.

I'd like to see our infantry take on the role as punching bags better than they do now. Zombies should be made T3, and we ought to have some benefits of our own for being "steadfast", such as suffering less wounds from crumbling.

More pronounced Necromancers.

Perhaps make our summoning a bit more restricted but, again, make our lowlier troops more able to stay upright on their own.

 

[thekinginyellow]

Well, I'm new here, but as I go through the army book, buy my models and build my lists there is really only one thing I think that needs to be revamped: Lore of Vampires. With the reduction in the ability to spam IoN, VHDM and Raise Dead, they should be balanced with improvements to the effectiveness of successful castings.

This army works so much better when fully integrated into the lore, and the entire army's primary mechanic revolves around the concept of replaceable, but less than stellar core units. With the auto-break change to Fear, simply throwing vast numbers of models at the enemy is no longer a winning strategy, but it has instead become a point denial strategy to my mind.

So make these changes:

IoN - Leave the cost as is. A risk of failing one-die casting, pretty much a sure thing on 2-die. Change the effect to 1d6+2 (or so) wounds healed. Zombies get 1d6+6.

Raise Dead - Change to 7+ to cast. Can be one-diced as a last spell or desperation spell. Change it to d6+5 zombies, or 2d6+5 with the Sceptre.

VHDM - Change to 8+ to cast, leave unchanged otherwise. This is still potent.

Gaze of Nagash - Change to 10+ to cast, allow unsaved wounds to apply as healing wounds to a unit within 12" as per IoN.

Curse of Years - Change to 12+ to cast, allow unsaved wounds to apply as healing wounds to a unit within 12" as per IoN. If a unit is wiped out, raise spirit hosts on that spot as per Wind of Undeath.

Wind of Undeath - This is tough, it is really not a great spell right now given the shifting dynamic to fewer bigger units, so I would consider lowering it's cost to 10+. I would suggest a powered-up version that is cast on a 15+ changing it to d3 wounds per unit.

Summon Undead Horde - Change to 15+ to cast, but give the option of a 21+ to cast powered up version that raises 8d6 or heals 5d6.

Suddenly the 12 power dice limit is not as crippling, our Lore matches up better to what we had in 7th, but is not nearly as OP (IMHO).

 

[guarin36]

i have a couple of small changes,
i would like to see points costs dropped for all core units, even if only by 2, seeing how fear is now pretty much not worth having. and i would like our skeles to have some choice of armour or weapons, rather than spears or no spear.

secondly i would change magic so that our necro spells dont break concentration, now we cant go above 12 PD i dont see the harm, or maybe having second casting values of our spells to increase potency or raising power. (yes i know we have SUH but thats a one use a turn spell.)

then nothing that hasnt been said 20 times before such as armour for our lords, cheaper lords with magic option.