Vampire Counts Rumours
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I can't see how VC are not at disadvantage, when for example, Empire can have 4 mages, 4 cannons, 2 steam tanks, and take any core they wish, like crossbowmen. Wood elves can have all forest spirit army, Chaos mortals have their best units as core and can have all cavalry army, all immune to psychology with Slaanesh.
Varghulf costs about twice as much as a tomb scorpion, both are similarly effective, because the scorpion will get faster to the enemy, varghulf must first survive the fire to get to charge and it does not fly.
Black coach has some new rules, but is very expensive.
One unit of 4 KotBK with command and their magical standard costs more than 2 varghulfs and has to charge, and they
still have 4 wounds only for those points.
Zombies, well their rules and stats are much worse, so they are cheaper (imho not cheap enough for the T stat).
Dire wolves lost some of their rules, rumour is they are cheaper (but only infantry counts to the core).
BK and GG are roughly the same.
Skeletons and ghouls are better but you are forced to like infantry, and 90% other armies are not.
The old VC book allowed to use all the best units and it did not matter which core units you fielded.
Now without building the army around infantry blocks it doesn't work half as good as it did. If using infantry, it is much harder not to be charged, only the vanhels gives necessary mobility, and it takes more time to get to the enemy.
Sure, we are getting some new things, and few options are powerful, but there are many drawbacks. But all the news are for now rumors, maybe the book will be very well balanced (not for cavalry armies though).
Varghulf costs about twice as much as a tomb scorpion, both are similarly effective, because the scorpion will get faster to the enemy, varghulf must first survive the fire to get to charge and it does not fly.
Black coach has some new rules, but is very expensive.
One unit of 4 KotBK with command and their magical standard costs more than 2 varghulfs and has to charge, and they
still have 4 wounds only for those points.
Zombies, well their rules and stats are much worse, so they are cheaper (imho not cheap enough for the T stat).
Dire wolves lost some of their rules, rumour is they are cheaper (but only infantry counts to the core).
BK and GG are roughly the same.
Skeletons and ghouls are better but you are forced to like infantry, and 90% other armies are not.
The old VC book allowed to use all the best units and it did not matter which core units you fielded.
Now without building the army around infantry blocks it doesn't work half as good as it did. If using infantry, it is much harder not to be charged, only the vanhels gives necessary mobility, and it takes more time to get to the enemy.
Sure, we are getting some new things, and few options are powerful, but there are many drawbacks. But all the news are for now rumors, maybe the book will be very well balanced (not for cavalry armies though).
Armies built around blocks of core infantry seems to be were GW re taking wfb, and armies are reflecting this as they are updates with new army books
"forced to take infantry" 95% of all VC I´ve ever seen have had atleast 2 blocks of infantry but more often 3. Even cavalry lists often have bunkers and a block to keep their necros safe. It is a problem for all cav lists but not a huge problem and as I said before we cannot have everything(see Empire).
Empire are hugely flexible but they arent great at anything. They cant hold a candle in the wind to our magic phase, especially now the sheer amount of bound spells and invocations we can throw at them is staggering. A lvl3 vamp lord + lvl2 vampire can with the 2 basic PD cast 7 IoNs on 1 dice and considering it is 3+ to cast... alot of spells, add in 2 bound items(BoArkhan surely will be there) and lets add 1-2 coprse carts. Thats alot of magic going around.
My setup will probably be lvl4 vamp lord + lvl2 vamp + Necro/Wight lord with the D3 great weapon for some extra monster slaying power and quite expect I can deal out alot of annoyence.
And this isnt even the full fury of our magic phase but certainly is furious enough!
Scorp vs Varghulf... well the vargulf git re-rolls to hit, terror and regen and most likely a much better WS. Two very different units. One is more of a disruptor unit and the other is a sledgehammer. Also helps out the faster elements on the army close to him(like wolves) due to the within 6" march radius.
Cannot agree on the coach either. Been given a better ward and you can enhance it during the game and it still cost the same as before.
The KotBK is abit of mixed bag really and I problably will field varghulfs over them as well but on the flipside these knights really can punch a big hole in the enemy lines once you get used to deal with frenzy and we do got our wolves to help them charge what we want.
As for rumours, we´re now so incredibly close to the release so the more current rumours probably are very accurate at this point. Still there might be some tidbits that hasnt reached the surface yet. Might seem I´m defending GW and the new army abit too much here but I really do like the new list. Quite alot.
New ways to play VC, new units and new lore.
Empire are hugely flexible but they arent great at anything. They cant hold a candle in the wind to our magic phase, especially now the sheer amount of bound spells and invocations we can throw at them is staggering. A lvl3 vamp lord + lvl2 vampire can with the 2 basic PD cast 7 IoNs on 1 dice and considering it is 3+ to cast... alot of spells, add in 2 bound items(BoArkhan surely will be there) and lets add 1-2 coprse carts. Thats alot of magic going around.
My setup will probably be lvl4 vamp lord + lvl2 vamp + Necro/Wight lord with the D3 great weapon for some extra monster slaying power and quite expect I can deal out alot of annoyence.
And this isnt even the full fury of our magic phase but certainly is furious enough!
Scorp vs Varghulf... well the vargulf git re-rolls to hit, terror and regen and most likely a much better WS. Two very different units. One is more of a disruptor unit and the other is a sledgehammer. Also helps out the faster elements on the army close to him(like wolves) due to the within 6" march radius.
Cannot agree on the coach either. Been given a better ward and you can enhance it during the game and it still cost the same as before.
The KotBK is abit of mixed bag really and I problably will field varghulfs over them as well but on the flipside these knights really can punch a big hole in the enemy lines once you get used to deal with frenzy and we do got our wolves to help them charge what we want.
As for rumours, we´re now so incredibly close to the release so the more current rumours probably are very accurate at this point. Still there might be some tidbits that hasnt reached the surface yet. Might seem I´m defending GW and the new army abit too much here but I really do like the new list. Quite alot.
New ways to play VC, new units and new lore.
Okay, I don't understand why everyone's complaining about the new VC. I personally love everything except the only lvl 1 necros. I really love all the new powers and special rules and I love the new models so yea.
I'm not entirely sure why everyone is complaining so much about the bad points. Of course there has to be some, otherwise the army would be too powerful. Yes, I know it seems like they have made the army harder to play, but I take that as a good thing. With the old army it was getting to the point were I would win nearly every game, using the same or very simular tactics against every enemy, and win fairly easily too. I feel that vampires are currently too powerful, and need this reduction. Vampires had started to et boring for me. Now though, I need to think up entirely new tactics. The old ones might still work, but not as well. In addition, due to the high cost of the special/rare choices, it means we won't end up seeing the same army builds over and over as seems to be happening with Empire. (Archlector on War alter, anyone?)
Anyway, ramble over![/u]
Anyway, ramble over![/u]
Every time someone complains about "being forces to take infantry", it just confirms that GW are doing the right thing by making them infantry. If you want an all-skirmish army, go play 40K (Or Wood Elves), if you want all-mounted, either make do with 90% mounted or play Bretonnian.
EvC said:
Yeah, I really do hope they did the right thing with ALL armies, not just high elves and vc.
The new empire pretty much destroyed the notion that GW is doing the right thing.
Veland said:
Well perhaps it would be nice if we got the opportunity to take whatever we wanted, but I think EvC has a point. Each army is designed to have a certain feel to it, you can't just give every army every possible combination. That is why the WE don't have heavy cav for example, that is why Dwarves don't have chariots or Wizards.
It seems to me that GW are going for a particular feel for this army in order to delineate it from other armies. This can be really annoying to older players who are used to their particular take on the army, but it isn't necessarily a bad thing.
That being said, I don't like the "if you don't like it, play something else" attitude. It IS annoying, especially if you have a fluffy reason behind your entire army and they go and change it so you can't make it any more. I personally find the, "these units don't count toward core" rule to be a unnecessarily limiting.
I think if you take the wolf form ability you should get dire wolves as a counts toward core choice. Something like that at the very least.
I abso-posi-tutely (absolutely and positively combined) agree with you on that, though I am new, I understand that people really don't like change, but it must come. I have to say though if it bothers you to a point in which you can't stand to play with that army, use the older book. I know most people don't play in many tournaments so it shouldn't matter much.
Trentonator said:
Unfortunately that is about as viable as still playing with the 6th edition rules. Or 5th edition. It can work with a regular gaming group, but won't as soon as you want to play anyone different, like pickup games at a store etc. I could always play with all my own units and point costs if I wanted, but a lot of people want to know what it is they are facing, even in friendly games.
I'm not thrilled with some of the changes I've heard (ranked ghouls for example) but I'm going to have to adapt and change.
Adapt and change indeed. I doubt I´m alone as a VC player when I say the list is feeling its age and making a list was no longer very exciting... really, I dont even need the book anymore. Without change every once in awhile when a book or edition is re-released this game would get really dull.
No one is stopping you from using your own fluff but really is it so bad that GW actually makes the WH world change abit? I personally see this as a chance to further develope my own fluff to match the latest turns of events. The Carsteins are the most influencial(spelling?) and powerful line right now but by no means are the rest of the bloodlines eradicated(least from what I´ve heard...).
No one is stopping you from using your own fluff but really is it so bad that GW actually makes the WH world change abit? I personally see this as a chance to further develope my own fluff to match the latest turns of events. The Carsteins are the most influencial(spelling?) and powerful line right now but by no means are the rest of the bloodlines eradicated(least from what I´ve heard...).
Veland said:
You have your opinion, that you don't like using infantry, I have my opinion, that I like the game to be focussed on infantry. Am I allowed my opinion? Yes. Are you allowed your opinion? Yes. Is having to field a few blocks of infantry going to ruin the game for you, or your army? No. Is being able to field stupid min-maxed lists like all wolves/ cavalry/ flyers/ steam tanks etc. harming the game? Yes, it is. So I'm thankful that the new book will curtail those lists.
I'm showing full tolerance for your opinion. Believe it or not, I am allowed to disagree with you.
Greetings from Thy God, Mr Fluffy
Heres what my Acolytes were able to compile on the new army list.
If its wrong, I suppose I'll just zombify the Acolyte, but if its right, he might just find a tasty brain under his sarcofacus...
Well, here goes nothing:
Bloodline powers
The Severed
Spectral Horror: Ethereal, can take no magic items.
Ghoulkin: if joining a unit of ghouls the vampire and the ghoul unit can make a march move before the game starts.
Supernatural Terror: Cause Terror.
The Arcane
Master of the dark arts: two extra power dice every phase.
Forbidden Lore: Know all spells from vampire lore or any other lore except life.
Dark Acolyte: gain magic level.
The Bestial
Flying Horror: Fly.
infinite Hatred: Re-roll all missed To hit rolls.
Hunter in the Dark: Gain scout.
The Martial
Red Fury: each wound dealt generates an extra attack, these extra attacks cannot generate extra attacks. cannot be combined with great weapon. (lances ok though!)
Avatar of Death: Gain Heavy Armor and your choice of GW, HW shield or Double HW.
Dread Knight: Gain lance heavy armor shield, barded nightmare
The Courtly
Aura of Dark Majesty: -1 enemy leadership in 6" (cumulative)
Walking Death: +1 combat res
Beguile: select one model, may re-roll wounds against chosen model unless it passes Ld -3 roll.
The Master (affect invocation of nehek)
Lord of the dead: Raise skeltons beyond their starting number gain +1 on number raised.
Summon Creatures of the NIght: Raise Dire wolves, Batswarms And fell bats beyond starting size, gain +1 raised.
Summon Ghouls: Raise ghouls beyond starting size, gain +1 raised.
Magic Items
Magic Weapons
Frost Blade
Any model taking a wound is slain outright.
Dreadlance
Lance, attacks automatically hit.
Black Axe of Krell
Wight king only, greatweapon causes d3 wounds, any model not slain must pas a toughness test each round or suffer another wound.
Blooddrinker
Vampire Only, each unsaved wound heals a wound to the wielder or the unit he is in.
Skabscrath
bearer causes terror
Sword of Kings
gains killing blow, wightkings gain killing blow on 5+
Tomb Blade
If in unit of skeleton warriors each wound creates a new skeleton.
Balefire Spike
Lance, attacks are flaming.
Talismans
Carstein Ring
revive from slain once on a roll of 2+, if returned to life place model in the front rank of any friendly unit on the table. If there is no unit, the vampire is removed as a casualty.
Crown of the damned
4+ ward save bear subject to stupidity.
Wristbands of Black Gold
3+ ward save against all ranged attacks. magic missles, templates etc.
Gem of Blood one use only
first wound suffer in CC, roll die, on 1, take wound and an extra wound, on 2+ the wound is rebounded onto the model that caused it with no armor save.
Arcane Items
Skullstaff
+1 to casting and dispelling rolls.
Staff of damnation
Bound 3, all friendly undead with in 12" make a single attack. roll a die each time it is used, breaks on a 1.
Book of Arkhan
Bound 3, casts Vanhel's Danse Macarbre, roll a die each time it is used, breaks on a 1.
Sceptre de Noirot
bearer raises d3+9 zombies with raise dead.
Crimson Gem of Lahmia
Vampires only, at anytime during the magic pahse the bearer may expend one wound to gain a power die.
Black Periapt
Allows bear to keep one unused power die or one unused dispel die and the end of the phase and add it to his side's power or dispel pool in the next phase.
Magic Armor
Walach's Bloody Hauberk
gain 4+ save that can be combined with other stuff, also 5+ ward.
Accursed Armor
Heavy Armor -3 WS, -3I +1T.
Flayed Hauberk
2+ save that cannot be improved.
Armor of Night
On foot only, Heavy Armor if wearer is on his own he at -2 to be shot at.
Nightshroud
Can be taken by Necromancers
Light Armor, attacker lose charging bonus, lose ASF, and have their I reduced to 1.
Cadaverous Cuirass
Vampires only, Heavy Armor, killing blow and poison have no effect.
Enchanted Items
The hand of dust
Bound 3 inflicts 2d6 str 5 hits to one unit in contact with bearer as shooting. roll a die, on a 1 it breaks.
Rod of Flaming death
Bound 3 magic missile d6 str 4, 18" units suffing a casualty take panic check. roll a die, on a 1 it breaks.
Helm of Commandment
If wearer is not in combat one friendly unit with in 12" may use bearer weapon skill.
The Cursed Book One Use Only
For one round all attacks against bearer are WS 1.
Talisman of the Lycni
Vampire only. Vampire gains move 9.
Magic Banners
Drakenhof banner
unit gains regeneration
Flag of Blood keep
4+ ward save vs any kind of shooting.
Banner of Barrows
GG, BK and Wightkings in the unit gain +1 to hit.
Screaming Banner
Roll extra die on fear checks made against unit discard lowest.
Royal Banner of Strigos
Unit hates all enemies
Icon of vengance
Unit does not crumble when general dies
Banner of the dead Legion
Unit counts as having twice as many models as it actually does
Cursed Pendant
Unit claiming banner after killing your unit take d6 st4 hits. If they hold onto the banner they take d3 str4 hits every turn. No saves. The banner may be dropped (losing victory points) to avoid the second effect.
Banner of Endless Nightmare
the unit may claim up to +4 combat res from ranks if they have the models.
Standard of Hellish Vigor
unit can always march.
Standard of everlasting death
suffer one fewer casualty from crumble on a 4+
Banner of Hellfire
unit has magical flaming attacks.
Remember, these ARE rumours, so don't blame me if they're wrong, Blame the Acolyte.
Now... Go Nuts! Slap up any old comment related to it.
-edit- oh Voltaire, you might want to put this somewhere more visible, as I'm dead lazy
EDIT : Do not post specific points value for items, this will get CN in trouble. Thanks, Danceman
Heres what my Acolytes were able to compile on the new army list.
If its wrong, I suppose I'll just zombify the Acolyte, but if its right, he might just find a tasty brain under his sarcofacus...
Well, here goes nothing:
Bloodline powers
The Severed
Spectral Horror: Ethereal, can take no magic items.
Ghoulkin: if joining a unit of ghouls the vampire and the ghoul unit can make a march move before the game starts.
Supernatural Terror: Cause Terror.
The Arcane
Master of the dark arts: two extra power dice every phase.
Forbidden Lore: Know all spells from vampire lore or any other lore except life.
Dark Acolyte: gain magic level.
The Bestial
Flying Horror: Fly.
infinite Hatred: Re-roll all missed To hit rolls.
Hunter in the Dark: Gain scout.
The Martial
Red Fury: each wound dealt generates an extra attack, these extra attacks cannot generate extra attacks. cannot be combined with great weapon. (lances ok though!)
Avatar of Death: Gain Heavy Armor and your choice of GW, HW shield or Double HW.
Dread Knight: Gain lance heavy armor shield, barded nightmare
The Courtly
Aura of Dark Majesty: -1 enemy leadership in 6" (cumulative)
Walking Death: +1 combat res
Beguile: select one model, may re-roll wounds against chosen model unless it passes Ld -3 roll.
The Master (affect invocation of nehek)
Lord of the dead: Raise skeltons beyond their starting number gain +1 on number raised.
Summon Creatures of the NIght: Raise Dire wolves, Batswarms And fell bats beyond starting size, gain +1 raised.
Summon Ghouls: Raise ghouls beyond starting size, gain +1 raised.
Magic Items
Magic Weapons
Frost Blade
Any model taking a wound is slain outright.
Dreadlance
Lance, attacks automatically hit.
Black Axe of Krell
Wight king only, greatweapon causes d3 wounds, any model not slain must pas a toughness test each round or suffer another wound.
Blooddrinker
Vampire Only, each unsaved wound heals a wound to the wielder or the unit he is in.
Skabscrath
bearer causes terror
Sword of Kings
gains killing blow, wightkings gain killing blow on 5+
Tomb Blade
If in unit of skeleton warriors each wound creates a new skeleton.
Balefire Spike
Lance, attacks are flaming.
Talismans
Carstein Ring
revive from slain once on a roll of 2+, if returned to life place model in the front rank of any friendly unit on the table. If there is no unit, the vampire is removed as a casualty.
Crown of the damned
4+ ward save bear subject to stupidity.
Wristbands of Black Gold
3+ ward save against all ranged attacks. magic missles, templates etc.
Gem of Blood one use only
first wound suffer in CC, roll die, on 1, take wound and an extra wound, on 2+ the wound is rebounded onto the model that caused it with no armor save.
Arcane Items
Skullstaff
+1 to casting and dispelling rolls.
Staff of damnation
Bound 3, all friendly undead with in 12" make a single attack. roll a die each time it is used, breaks on a 1.
Book of Arkhan
Bound 3, casts Vanhel's Danse Macarbre, roll a die each time it is used, breaks on a 1.
Sceptre de Noirot
bearer raises d3+9 zombies with raise dead.
Crimson Gem of Lahmia
Vampires only, at anytime during the magic pahse the bearer may expend one wound to gain a power die.
Black Periapt
Allows bear to keep one unused power die or one unused dispel die and the end of the phase and add it to his side's power or dispel pool in the next phase.
Magic Armor
Walach's Bloody Hauberk
gain 4+ save that can be combined with other stuff, also 5+ ward.
Accursed Armor
Heavy Armor -3 WS, -3I +1T.
Flayed Hauberk
2+ save that cannot be improved.
Armor of Night
On foot only, Heavy Armor if wearer is on his own he at -2 to be shot at.
Nightshroud
Can be taken by Necromancers
Light Armor, attacker lose charging bonus, lose ASF, and have their I reduced to 1.
Cadaverous Cuirass
Vampires only, Heavy Armor, killing blow and poison have no effect.
Enchanted Items
The hand of dust
Bound 3 inflicts 2d6 str 5 hits to one unit in contact with bearer as shooting. roll a die, on a 1 it breaks.
Rod of Flaming death
Bound 3 magic missile d6 str 4, 18" units suffing a casualty take panic check. roll a die, on a 1 it breaks.
Helm of Commandment
If wearer is not in combat one friendly unit with in 12" may use bearer weapon skill.
The Cursed Book One Use Only
For one round all attacks against bearer are WS 1.
Talisman of the Lycni
Vampire only. Vampire gains move 9.
Magic Banners
Drakenhof banner
unit gains regeneration
Flag of Blood keep
4+ ward save vs any kind of shooting.
Banner of Barrows
GG, BK and Wightkings in the unit gain +1 to hit.
Screaming Banner
Roll extra die on fear checks made against unit discard lowest.
Royal Banner of Strigos
Unit hates all enemies
Icon of vengance
Unit does not crumble when general dies
Banner of the dead Legion
Unit counts as having twice as many models as it actually does
Cursed Pendant
Unit claiming banner after killing your unit take d6 st4 hits. If they hold onto the banner they take d3 str4 hits every turn. No saves. The banner may be dropped (losing victory points) to avoid the second effect.
Banner of Endless Nightmare
the unit may claim up to +4 combat res from ranks if they have the models.
Standard of Hellish Vigor
unit can always march.
Standard of everlasting death
suffer one fewer casualty from crumble on a 4+
Banner of Hellfire
unit has magical flaming attacks.
Remember, these ARE rumours, so don't blame me if they're wrong, Blame the Acolyte.
Now... Go Nuts! Slap up any old comment related to it.
-edit- oh Voltaire, you might want to put this somewhere more visible, as I'm dead lazy
EDIT : Do not post specific points value for items, this will get CN in trouble. Thanks, Danceman
EvC said:
In fact, it seems to me we have a kind of misunderstanding here
I wouldn't like to argue over anything much, but actually it was you who wrote something I read as: "if you dont like the way I think this game should be played, go and play another game because your style is not proper for the game". So, I don't mind the style you prefer, and I never wrote anything negative about people who play differently. I address and reserve my grudges to the people who make the rules (and errors in the rules too) for this game
I would like to emphasize, as I said a page or two earlier, that I believe the new book will be well balanced. I want this new book really badly and I want to try it out as fast as possible (that can be hard
). But I'm not going to like everything just because it's there by the will of Genius Works 
In fact, I used to play at least 50% infantry with my Strigoi list back in 6th ed (mainly zombies, ghouls), and I never played strictly all-cavalry BD army (I hoped I would with the new book, but alas!).
Hey gang, I'm curious -- maybe this has been mentioned before, maybe not. It's about the new Lord models.
Obviously we're getting the four characters - Vlad, Mannfred, Konrad, plus a new female vamp (can be used for Isabella). We're also getting the winged vampire lord.
Has anyone heard anything about a generic vampire kit though? I'm not really into using specials, and even though the winged guy is pretty cool he's not for me. I like my heroes to be unique I guess. Or at least "different enough" so that it is individual. Whereas Konrad will always be recognised as Konrad.
Do you see where I'm coming from? I figure, with the new list's focus on customising and individualising your vampires, it seems fair that we should get a hero kit (e.g. like the Empire)?
Or is it supposed to be up to us to create our own?
Obviously we're getting the four characters - Vlad, Mannfred, Konrad, plus a new female vamp (can be used for Isabella). We're also getting the winged vampire lord.
Has anyone heard anything about a generic vampire kit though? I'm not really into using specials, and even though the winged guy is pretty cool he's not for me. I like my heroes to be unique I guess. Or at least "different enough" so that it is individual. Whereas Konrad will always be recognised as Konrad.
Do you see where I'm coming from? I figure, with the new list's focus on customising and individualising your vampires, it seems fair that we should get a hero kit (e.g. like the Empire)?
Or is it supposed to be up to us to create our own?
At this moment in time the only New Vampires we've seen are Vlad Mannfred Konrad, the Female and the one with Wings...I have heard that more may be released similar to the way the Goblin heroes were for Orcs and Goblins, but yes I too would much more prefer a boxed set like one that the Empire has.
Because of the temperamental nature of vampires, do not expect a generic vampire kit. The Vampires have more characters currently than any other race, even OnG and there's nothing wrong with a lot of those models. With these new ones in the mix I think its fair to say the same characters won't be appearing twice.
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