Vampires are not Inherently Evil (Just Misunderstood)

[Hanblack Nagash]

No, humans kill and eat things that aren't humans.

Vampires were once humans therefore it's not the same as killing a deer for meat. Their condition changes them into monsters. Sure, "monsters from a human perspective." But, monsters at worse and cannibals at best?

I won't lie. I don't know a lot about Warhammer Fantasy, but I think Vampires that are misunderstood and really just helpless romantics is terrible. This is the reason we have Twilight and countless other awful Vampire fictions.

Vampires are monsters, if not monsters then they're just super heroes.

Like I explained earlier all vampires to me have a Beast inside of them. A monster that desires the blood of mortals. An unfeeling, dead, beast. Sure, you might be able to sate your thirst for a time. But the Beast is unruly and can take control at any time. Vampirism is a curse, not a gateway to super powers and immortality.

to be fair mate, some humans do eat other humans lol
Each vampire makes their own decisions. it is each to their own, but history even in the real world is tailored by those who want certain things to stand out and be remembered.

A fireman saved 100 people. hes a hero but he will not be known in history literature in a few hundred years. a guy who kills a 100 people is remembered and often stories will be writen about said person.

Vampire fluff can be interpretted either way but you will mainly read about tyrants.

thats why i love vampire fluff so much. you have aborash, who fought himself for along time before he succombed to the thirst, but he cried for his victims. Atleast he found a cure (be it a dangerous one)

each person has their own tastes. some prefer the vampire tyrants, others prefer the mystery and seductive side of the vampiress etc. each to their own and their own oppinion, but i think they always make great reading.

their is a good phrase by which i take as gospel when it comes to interpretation of a race/ personality, actions etc

"demons to some, angels to others"

a brilliant line from the film hellraiser.

 

[Sweeney Todd]

Like I explained earlier all vampires to me have a Beast inside of them. A monster that desires the blood of mortals. An unfeeling, dead, beast. Sure, you might be able to sate your thirst for a time. But the Beast is unruly and can take control at any time. Vampirism is a curse, not a gateway to super powers and immortality.

You're thinking that vampires are all subservient to the beast within, but that is not universally true. Newly sired vampires would have little control over their thirst, but that seldom applies to the eldest and mightiest. As a prime example, Abhorash completely overcame his need for blood. Vlad von Carstein was a big advocate of restraint in feeding, unlike Konrad who would cull the humans in his realm wholesale and gorge on blood without thought for whether the 'herd' would wither as a result.

At the end of the day, when a vampire has been around long enough to control his need to feed, what s/he does with his/her unlife depends not on the beast within but on the vampire's human side. Which is why I too think vampires are not inherently evil. The potential is there, that much is certain. But not all choose to go down that path.

 

[Count Lasombra]

Is there even a such thing as inherent evil? or is it all a matter of perspective.I think it's more a question of cosmology than anything.
Is feeding on humans evil? (in and of itself)
If the answer is yes,then I'd say that Vampires are inherently evil because they must perform evil to live and are therefore agents of evil,no matter how they may feel about it.
If you think feeding on humans is ok,then it's subjective.

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

Dark Elves are not evil. They too are just misunderstood. Malekith was the rightful heir to the throne.

Thats what happens when you have a legion of undersexed women.

In the eyes of man, chaos is evil. Everything is relative, we have to look at it from some perspective. And in the eyes of man chaos is evil. While I feel vampires (or at least who they pretend to be) can be perceived as good in the eyes of man (even though GW books disagrees).

Dark magic is the most raw form of magic, therefore the most raw form of chaos (except for warp stone), and since I perceive chaos as evil so is dark magic.

Still, chaos is chaos and only want chaos, which per definition would lay the empires of man to waste. It doesn’t want to be evil, men just see it as such. While some evil, like Dr. Doofenshmirtz, Dr. Horrible and (most of all) Aku actually sees themselves as evil, and are proud of it.

I agree, everything is relative but just because it has a origin which inspires fear does not make it bad, good things can come of what you may view as bad and bad from what was looked upon as good.
The Novels do more justice than the army book however.

I really like the lore of Vampire the Requiem or Masquerade. Vampirism is evil because it changes you from a human to a human who has a beast inside of them. The human part is constantly struggling with the monster inside of them.

Let's be honest... You drink blood and/or sustained by dark magics... Come on, you're evil. Perspective is almost irrelevant. Evil actions are evil. Raising the dead(if possible) would be a universally evil act in all cultures around the world. No human being would ever say... Oh that guy that lives in that castle... Yeah he drank my daughter dry and raised my dead son as a shallow husk that stalks the land.... But he's got a big heart?

Now, the human part of a vampire could be good... For sometime, but after hundreds of years of drinking blood... Doing unspeakable acts (possibly against your will as the Beast is a powerful force)... You'd eventually lose your humanity. Killing people would become habit. Raising loved ones to fight as shambling corpses... No problem. You need soldiers and them corpses ain't gonna raise themselves.

Also, there's no crying in unlife.

Vamperism is not evil, it does not define who you are, yes it does contain a bestial nature but it does not mean you have to submit to it.
If the Human Part were to relish and give free reign to the Beastial nature in them and enjoy doing so knowing full well their actions and actively peruse it, then that is evil.
Nothing is evil by nature, to say so is akin to saying some people are just born to be evil and ther is nothing they can do to change that.

You drink blood and are sustained by magic, the magic does not harm anyone and the blood, tell me whats the difference if it is given willingly?
A person who needs blood to live may be given a transfusion from a willing donor, what difference is there in drinking it?
He takes it in battle instead, provided he was not the aggressor attacking innocents there is no harm in feeding from those who would kill you, men for thousands of years stripped gear and wealth from those they killed, what difference would drinking of their blood make?
To say someone is evil based on how they must live to survive is a blanket statement of ignorance which is applied regularly in todays society which breeds intolerance, fear and hatred of those whichj need no be the case.

Killing people for amusement and raising them from the dead is evil
killing people to protect you're self is not, raising people from the dead is viewed as evil but I see it as being a case of provided it does no harm to those who have been raised and they are just empty shells, I prefer to have them fight for me rather than send our loved ones off to war.
Provided you do not actively seek to harm others for personal gain or amusement it is ok though I will say most vampires never raise the dead, all vampires may have some experience with magic but very few would raise the dead else we would have thousands of roaming armies of the dead across the world itself.

Some may lose themselves over time, Vlad did not, Abourash did not, The Black Prince did not, Jerik did not, there is a long list, Genevieve did not either, they have all loved past death and have protected their own, fighting for their own benefit or to protect others, these are not the acts of evil beings but Powerful intelligent ones.
You can not tar everyone with the same brush.

Also I will note that Isabella cried begging for death after the Man she loved had died, pure evil she was, evil tears.....

I really like the lore of Vampire the Requiem or Masquerade. Vampirism is evil because it changes you from a human to a human who has a beast inside of them. The human part is constantly struggling with the monster inside of them.

Let's be honest... You drink blood and/or sustained by dark magics... Come on, you're evil. Perspective is almost irrelevant. Evil actions are evil. Raising the dead(if possible) would be a universally evil act in all cultures around the world. No human being would ever say... Oh that guy that lives in that castle... Yeah he drank my daughter dry and raised my dead son as a shallow husk that stalks the land.... But he's got a big heart?

Now, the human part of a vampire could be good... For sometime, but after hundreds of years of drinking blood... Doing unspeakable acts (possibly against your will as the Beast is a powerful force)... You'd eventually lose your humanity. Killing people would become habit. Raising loved ones to fight as shambling corpses... No problem. You need soldiers and them corpses ain't gonna raise themselves.

Also, there's no crying in unlife.

I disagree - perspective is everything. Completely agree with DDM here in that Vamps are not inherently evil. Only in the new GW fluff, which basically removes any interest or personality they may have had and just turns tham into 'Monster of the Week'.

Firstly, the vampire retains their human personality, just augmented with a few inherited bits from the bloodline (and to be fair - each bloodline would tend to recruit from their own personality type as well). They are fully capable of positive as well as negative emotions. They just tend to be taken to extremes. It is unlikely that the original human would have been 'good' in the Mother Theresa sense of the word, but you don't have to be Charles Manson either. Its all shades of grey (and NOTHING to do with that bl**dy book).

Secondly, perspective is very important when it comes to feeding. We eat cows, pigs, horses, deer, rabbits, dogs - you name it - some of which bring back lovely images of bambi, or watership down. We eat them because we feel we are a superior lifeform to them, and thus at the top of the food chain. And when it comes to eating rabbit or venison, for example, we will divorce the food on the plate to those lovely images of Bambi or Watership Down. Vampires would have much the same outlook. they are immortal, and would regard mere humans as beneath them. Some vampires become genuinely fond of humanity and care for them, but (see Night's Dark Masters) but at the end of the day, they are a race apart and view humans as inferiors. And that uis not evil - it is merely the psychology of immortality. Do you care if you kill a mayfly? It'll be dead in a day anyway. Thats the vampires viewpoint asfter thay have been alive long enough.

Thirdly. A vampire is fueled by a need for blood and dark magic. That is merely the nature of the beast and not an indicator of the personality of the vampire.

Finally, vampires don't necessarily go around doing unspeakable things every day. Your average Lahmian wouldn't - they would tend to get noticed quite quickly if they did. And Blood Dragons have a very strict code of honourThe only vampires that you could really categorize as monstrous are the strigoi - which is really by accident of history in their case, or the necrarch, who by design want to wipe out all life.

So, thats my rant for the day ......

I agree, GW lore likes to have everything in black and white, the Empire is a force for good, Vampire are evil, no one is corrupt, blah, blah, blah.
Jump across to the novels, vampires are good and evil, people are good and evil, the empire is a oppressive regime which controls the flow of all information, books and what people can and can't say and in some places people are treat little better than slaves, go back to vlad trying to take over in the time of 3 Emperors, he did nothing any of the others had not done, he looked after his own people, he was fair and just, up held the laws and lowed taxes, he fought the others for his claim as they already did each other and always first offered mercy, he did not harm others just to be cruel more than what can be said for Empress Magritte the monumentally cruel among others I may mention, hell if not for Vlad Teaching Necromancy to Van Hal the Skaven Invasion of 1111 would of swept the Empire aside after their plague yet the Undead held them back commanded by a man with good intentions, he was cut down by another who wanted his power (An Apprentice go figure) but if not for him the empire would of fallen.

All traits of the person when they become a vampire are magnified, as I said those with evil int their hearts will not be worse than they could of ever of been in life but the same is to be said for those who are pure of heart.
Vampires are not bogey men but are in fact thinking rational Human beings to an extent, they eat differently, have immortality, can use magic and have super strength and speed, they are however still human in form, mind and everything else before they passed into their next life.

Just because they use magic to animate themselves to an extent does not make them bad, its like saying that the emperor who has to use psychic essence to live on the golden throne is evil because it all comes from chaos.

Strigoi are in fact in some cases mad but not evil, they don't sire because they don't want others to suffer like them, that is not the mark of a monster, they have in allot of cases become feral though and its like the case of a wounded animal, they lash out but they never did before.
Remember their kingdom, it was fair, only criminals were fed on, it protected their own, never harmed others, destroyed by orcs and human tribes who thought them evil for nothing more than because of their nature.

The necrarch are evil, no real exception there, they tried to augment the need for blood with more dark magic which causes their bodies to rot which also caused their brains to rot which drives them insane, they may not start out like that but thats what happened to them.

So by your logic anyone who does anything horrible it's fine as long as they don't think they were doing evil.

(Real World Example)
So Hitler was not evil because he was doing everything for the good of Germany?

Or Ed Gein? I mean sure he exhumed bodies and made trophies out of flesh, but he was unwell, so he wasn't evil?

(Warhammer Example)
Vampire is overcome with Hunger and kills a handful of children and drinks their blood in a frenzy. He feels remorse. Remorse doesn't bring the dead back. Families are broken and people are dead. But he didnt mean to... He's still evil.

Also, no one gives a damn if they kill a bug. That's not a proper comparison because vampires used to be human.

When you get down to it... It's their nature is an excuse.

Vampires are
A) The Living Dead
B) Sustained by the blood of the living
C) Sustained by Dark Magic
D) Raise the dead to create armies to conquer the living.

I mean... What more do you need? They're evil. They don't sparkle and cry because of their lost love.

Anyone who uses evil as a means to their goals are evil. As they say, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

Hitler did evil things and knew what he was doing for personal gain, someone who must eat to live is not evil, not even in the same ball park.

A Vampire who killed innocents by no fault of their own should make emends for what they have done, nothing will bring them back but just because they carried out one act does not mean they should be condemned, if they did it with intention sure but if not no.
After all you could come about and say the founding fathers of the United States were evil, hell Ben Franklin got into politics because of the money it made him getting business for his printing, he did however fund pirates to attack British merchant ships where he had sailors put to death and the entire start of the war of independence was in fact a act of terrorism where Innocent men were killed every day without cause all in the name of freedom and personal profit which they gained but because it founded a nation people try and overlook the fact that majors were hung, daughters raped, sailors killed on mass, troops killed in their sleep because it was all for good intentions right, now tell me killing folks, blowing up ships and building full of people in a country you belong to, thats called terrorism right?
Nothing is ever so cut and dry.... People tend to forget that.

Now:


Vampires are
A) The Living Dead
B) Sustained by the blood of the living
C) Sustained by Dark Magic
D) Raise the dead to create armies to conquer the living.


A) Yes and no, there are some who are living dead and others with beating hearts who are not but I don't see what that has to do with anything, its like hating the elves for being immortal.
B) After a certain age they do not need to drink blood either anymore but can also feed upon a dragon to remove this or indeed just find willing people, they are fairly common in towns and cities as the novels prove, even hired guards provided they are paid are willing.
C) This magic is not being used to harm anyone, its the equivalent of saying someone on life support should have it turned off because the electric is unnatural.
D) Only some of these do, most do not, you are judging all by the sins of a few though I will mention that they fight all sorts of foes or would you rather the Skaven of wiped out the civilized world?

Any argument you put forwards I can counter and I will write page upon page without breaking a sweat. You have been weighed,you have been measured and found Ignorant.

When you get down to it... It's their nature is an excuse.

Vampires are
A) The Living Dead
B) Sustained by the blood of the living
C) Sustained by Dark Magic
D) Raise the dead to create armies to conquer the living.

I mean... What more do you need? They're evil. They don't sparkle and cry because of their lost love.

But that is precisely the argument you are making here. You are saying that they are evil because they are undead. So, in effect, you are saying they are evil because its in their nature.

so
A) The Living Dead. This is a perspective thing. Doesn't make them evil. Human just perceive it that way.
B) Sustained by the blood of the living. We sustain ourselves by killing things, be they plants or animals. Are all humans evil? And anyway, vampires don't have to kill what they feed on.
C) Sustained by Dark Magic. Same as A really. As all magic is the stuff of chaos, this argument means that all wizards everywhere are inherently chaotic and therefore evil.
D) Raise the dead to create armies to conquer the living. They don't all do this. Blood dragons and Lahmians certainly don't.

And the Hitler / Ed Gein argument is not a good one. Bothe were evil. Yes, agree there. But both made the conscious choice to perform those acts and thus knowingly committed evil deeds. The individual has a choice to be evil or not, be they vanmpire or human. And the vampire does not necesarily choose to ride around killing everything in sight. They don't all make that choice to tip themselves over the moral event horizon (spend far too long on TV Tropes). And thus are not inherently evil.

He makes many good points, it seems you hate them mearly for their existing, how do you feel about lizard men?... they evil as well, they would probs eat you to be honest though they would have other alternatives.

I do like this discussion

Not all vampires are evil, a classic example is the ulrika novels.
not to mention that we percieve vampires to be evil on the basis of what we are taught
They do what they need to survive.
after all didnt genvieve (sp) save karl franz from asassiation?

Strigoi are not inherently evil either. they were bullied, killed, shunned by their kin, they fed on the dead etc to survive and are suffering the consequences.
Besides im sure their is fluff of one of the strigoi lords just simply looking for a mate the big horny git.

They are a good example and she did, also helped kill Drakenfells one of the Most evil beings ever to live, Saved Karl Franz, save people countless times, and is even dating his son to a degree. (He has a crush but she is just playing along not to hurt his feelings, such a good heart she has)

Only humanity try to paint things in black and white yet they war among themselves int eh empire and with their neighbors for land and wealth when they should be trying to protect their people from those who actively seek to harm them.

Strigoi are not inherently evil either. they were bullied, killed, shunned by their kin, they fed on the dead etc to survive and are suffering the consequences.
Besides im sure their is fluff of one of the strigoi lords just simply looking for a mate the big horny git.

There is Gashnagg the Black Prince in the wasteland that is Newcas .... sorry ... Border Princes tongue: I'm a Maccem) who seems a pretty nice chap by all accounts. Looks after his subjects, kills anything evil that would attack them. and is looking fior a bride......

He crops up in Nights Dark Masters and the 7th edition fluff. Could be him.

I'm a Mackem too mate, you should pop down Sunderland store some time on a Saturday and ask at the painting table for Duke, busy working on my gauntlet/ Invasion army for Warhammer world atm.

He also crops up in the 7th edition book as well mate.

No, humans kill and eat things that aren't humans.

Vampires were once humans therefore it's not the same as killing a deer for meat. Their condition changes them into monsters. Sure, "monsters from a human perspective." But, monsters at worse and cannibals at best?

I won't lie. I don't know a lot about Warhammer Fantasy, but I think Vampires that are misunderstood and really just helpless romantics is terrible. This is the reason we have Twilight and countless other awful Vampire fictions.

Vampires are monsters, if not monsters then they're just super heroes.

Like I explained earlier all vampires to me have a Beast inside of them. A monster that desires the blood of mortals. An unfeeling, dead, beast. Sure, you might be able to sate your thirst for a time. But the Beast is unruly and can take control at any time. Vampirism is a curse, not a gateway to super powers and immortality.

Errr, just want to point out, Vampires did not make Ghouls.....
That one is you're fault.

They are no longer human so feeding from humans is not cannibalism but people may give things like blood to those that need it, why is feeding on humans if they are willing a bad thing or does this just offend delicate sensibilities and peoples idea of how straight forwards black and white things should be?

They are thinking beings who still have a human mind, they can for people, hate, lust, hunger, love same as any other, just because they have Super powers as you put it and must drink blood does not make them bad, poor dinner guests maybe but thats about it, I mean lets face it, what can you cook for them?

So this is just you're own view about how it should fit and not a discussion to bring and take concepts but you're blank brick statement of how things should be?
I will add that hunger is a feeling so if they are unfeeling beats it is kinda a contraction.
A curse or a gift, everything is what you make of it, if you're weak willed it will control you, if strong willing you will control it, just like any other impulse in life.

No, humans kill and eat things that aren't humans.

Vampires were once humans therefore it's not the same as killing a deer for meat. Their condition changes them into monsters. Sure, "monsters from a human perspective." But, monsters at worse and cannibals at best?

I won't lie. I don't know a lot about Warhammer Fantasy, but I think Vampires that are misunderstood and really just helpless romantics is terrible. This is the reason we have Twilight and countless other awful Vampire fictions.

Vampires are monsters, if not monsters then they're just super heroes.

Like I explained earlier all vampires to me have a Beast inside of them. A monster that desires the blood of mortals. An unfeeling, dead, beast. Sure, you might be able to sate your thirst for a time. But the Beast is unruly and can take control at any time. Vampirism is a curse, not a gateway to super powers and immortality.

to be fair mate, some humans do eat other humans lol
Each vampire makes their own decisions. it is each to their own, but history even in the real world is tailored by those who want certain things to stand out and be remembered.

A fireman saved 100 people. hes a hero but he will not be known in history literature in a few hundred years. a guy who kills a 100 people is remembered and often stories will be writen about said person.

Vampire fluff can be interpretted either way but you will mainly read about tyrants.

thats why i love vampire fluff so much. you have aborash, who fought himself for along time before he succombed to the thirst, but he cried for his victims. Atleast he found a cure (be it a dangerous one)

each person has their own tastes. some prefer the vampire tyrants, others prefer the mystery and seductive side of the vampiress etc. each to their own and their own oppinion, but i think they always make great reading.

their is a good phrase by which i take as gospel when it comes to interpretation of a race/ personality, actions etc

"demons to some, angels to others"

a brilliant line from the film hellraiser.

That as I said is why Vampires are each to their own you get good and bad just like with people,because thats what they are.

Bad things always do make better stories, you also have to remember that history is written by the victors and in the is case it is a Dictator state which controls all flow of information in and about the land and spreads their turn of events, hell the painted the elector Leitdorf mad and he was a hero battling a daemon who drove him mad, he died, his son died, his capital destroys and Hellborg and Schwartzhiem almost died along side Volkmar and over 80% of their army, they wrote it as if it had been an easy victory and that the city ha#d only taken minor damage so as not to let the seed of worry reach the people.

Aborash did find a cure and he lite a candle for every one of those people he killed mourning them every year, that evil bastard crying over those people..... Yh, sign of pure evil that, his tears turn into scorpions once they hit the ground and them go in search of children to kill.

Like I explained earlier all vampires to me have a Beast inside of them. A monster that desires the blood of mortals. An unfeeling, dead, beast. Sure, you might be able to sate your thirst for a time. But the Beast is unruly and can take control at any time. Vampirism is a curse, not a gateway to super powers and immortality.

You're thinking that vampires are all subservient to the beast within, but that is not universally true. Newly sired vampires would have little control over their thirst, but that seldom applies to the eldest and mightiest. As a prime example, Abhorash completely overcame his need for blood. Vlad von Carstein was a big advocate of restraint in feeding, unlike Konrad who would cull the humans in his realm wholesale and gorge on blood without thought for whether the 'herd' would wither as a result.

At the end of the day, when a vampire has been around long enough to control his need to feed, what s/he does with his/her unlife depends not on the beast within but on the vampire's human side. Which is why I too think vampires are not inherently evil. The potential is there, that much is certain. But not all choose to go down that path.

All we are trying to say in this thread is that you get both kinds same as any person.
No one is black or white, sometimes you have to think in shades of grey.

Is there even a such thing as inherent evil? or is it all a matter of perspective.I think it's more a question of cosmology than anything.
Is feeding on humans evil? (in and of itself)
If the answer is yes,then I'd say that Vampires are inherently evil because they must perform evil to live and are therefore agents of evil,no matter how they may feel about it.
If you think feeding on humans is ok,then it's subjective.

Nothing is born of evil, everyone has a choice, how is feeding from a person any different from organ donors, donating blood or purchasing the use of another body for a evening?
Its all about opinion.

Fortunatly for me however Phil Kelly shares the same view that Vampires are both good and evil and in some cases just as mundane as anyone else (which I will look forwards to slapping some people with who argue that point in RL, most recent VC book, signed by author, you're argument is invalid ), the only thing he said they were not though without a doupt were sparkly.... Damn Twilight....

 

[Chaos Zombie]

The alignment of vampires really depends on the perspective of evil.
If a government allows a village to be sleughtered to reinforce a more important area then are they evil?
Could vampires even be considered human. If so why? and if not aren't we also evil.
Vampires feeding on humans may be no different to humans eating a cow.
Vampires raising dead to fight the living. A recruiter conscripting men on the street to fihgt some foreign nation.
The use of fear to fight enemies is no different to us using hitech weaponry to kill.
However some vampires are evil in the highest degree, But in the same way vampires can also be valiant defenders of justice. They just have to commit a few evils to sustain themselves. How is that different to modern society. To upkeep oue privledged lives people suffer. So if vampires are definitivly evil than so are humans and my statement shall remain.

 

[Lynks]

On the raising part, it's more the tearing souls from the underworld, torturously binding them to their decaying husks, enslaving them to your will and leaving them as the weakest fragment of what they used to be that makes people consider it evil.

 

[Johnny-Crass]

This thread is getting too deep for double shift Johnny.....

Can't we all just say people who play lizardmen and run Teclis are evil and call it a day?

 

[Whisky Priest]

This thread is getting too deep for double shift Johnny.....

Can't we all just say people who play lizardmen and run Teclis are evil and call it a day?

I think DDMs post may have done that!!

It's a good discussion though. Brought up a few points. I've always thought that one of the central planks of 8th Edition WFB has been its absolute adherence to black and white morality (which doesn't actually work tbh - Wood elves are 'good' despite spending quite a bit of time kidknapping human babies and murdering the ones they don't like). And this, I think, is where Narenzade is coming from. It makes them fun to play on the tabletop, but in real terms makes them very one dimensional and really rather dull as characters. It also divorces the tabletop game almost completely from the fiction and WHFRP.

In the fiction, you find vampires that are fully three dimensional, with rational motives, needs and desires. And as in the 'real' world, its all grey on grey morality. Yes, some are unrepentant monsters, but some are actually good individuals - or at least try to do good - its difficult when every hedgerow seemingly hides a witch-hunter. But most are somewhere in between (and NOT lovelorn twilight-esque drips), just like people in the real world. And its that ambiguous morality that makes them interesting to me.

Narenzade, you should seriously try to get hold of a copy of Night's Dark Masters. It really fleshes out the Vampires and adds another dimension to them - its also a very good introduction to the bloodlines which 8th edition seems to have forgotten about....... It's also the book that inspired me play VC in WFB.

 

[Christophe von Carstein]

Nothing is inheritantly evil and this goes for vampires as well. I think Duke and a couple other people have made great points, good and evil are matters of perspective generally written/defined by the victors not the losers.

After all what Vlad believed he was doing was creating a kingdom of the dead so that his kind no longer had to hide in the shadows and scrape together a 'living' but instead can live as kings as he feels they should, but because he was defeated by the empire they wrote it as he was an evil monster trying to destroy humanity.

Although part of what made me keen on vampire counts as an army originally was that 2D thinking of wiping out humanity replacing it with a kingdom of the dead because I thought that sounds like fun but there is so much more to their characters.

Also on a side note when where there so many mackems on this site??

 

[Whisky Priest]

Also on a side note when where there so many mackems on this site??

Mwahahahahahahahaaaaa

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

This thread is getting too deep for double shift Johnny.....

Can't we all just say people who play lizardmen and run Teclis are evil and call it a day?

My net died shortly after making that giant post so trust me mate, I feel you're pain, hell my computer died on the same day as well so is under repair whilst my net is down.

Now I do agree with you there WP, fantasy is far to cut and dry and within reason I would like to see more mixing of forces like the new 40k in 9th edition.

Also on a side note when where there so many mackems on this site??

Mwahahahahahahahaaaaa

We are here because Sunderland is bigger & better than you're little "Toon".
Enjoy Man United on the weekend.

By the way though mate you should drag yourself down to the regional tournament this november 4th down in Nottingham, Newcastle is selling tickets atm, got mine in my Local Sunderland Store if you are still Studying on this side of the water.

 

[The Archivist]

Having just read this a lot of people are saying similar things.

The general consensus seems to be that vamps are not necessarily evil. The individual is unique.

The most interesting thing, I think, is that, in general, races are predisposed towards forming armies for certain purposes. Since the army books, the most easily accessible piece of background, are focused on the armies, then you will get the attitudes expressed through the book labeling the race in a game context.
As such, vampire armies are much more likely to be on the more aggressive side than, say, dwarves. I would be surprised to come across a campaign that began with a full scale assault on the forces of Chaos or Sylvania, because the races inclined to do this are much less likely to form armies for this express purpose.

Just my twenty pence of thought.

 

[Whisky Priest]

Having just read this a lot of people are saying similar things.

The general consensus seems to be that vamps are not necessarily evil. The individual is unique.

The most interesting thing, I think, is that, in general, races are predisposed towards forming armies for certain purposes. Since the army books, the most easily accessible piece of background, are focused on the armies, then you will get the attitudes expressed through the book labeling the race in a game context.
As such, vampire armies are much more likely to be on the more aggressive side than, say, dwarves. I would be surprised to come across a campaign that began with a full scale assault on the forces of Chaos or Sylvania, because the races inclined to do this are much less likely to form armies for this express purpose.

Just my twenty pence of thought.

To be fair, the empire periodically raises armies to drive the vampires out of sylvania, and the dwarves periodically raise armies to drive Nefertara out of silver pinnacle.

And by that, the vampires themselves don't go to war very often. There aren't a lot of situations that would require it. I would have to say that the army building vampire type represents a small minority of the total population of vampires. And while the army builder is more likely than not to err on the black side of morality, the bulk of the rest are likely to be a lot more ambiguous.

It must said, the 'good guys' have been as singularly unsuccessful as the evil armies have been in conquering the world.

But then, 'as is' is god to GW. The status quo sells!

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

I understand that the agressive setting of having an army book does not show a nation or a group of people in anything other than a war like manner.

That said and done Vampires for the most part are just happy to have their home and don't go to war near as often as mortals.
Eventually they will shake it up but no nation will ever be whipped out nor group of people, I just wish they were more open minded and say it is just as likely for empire to be on the side of evil, you get evil men all the time, warriors did not make themselves.
In fact with evil Emperors, generals, commanders, wizards, councilors all having tried to gain power, kill others for profit or fun and worship the ruinous powers it does make vampires seem a hell of allot nicer.
I have yet to see a vampire who worships chaos.

I say if Skaven can sit as a neutral force so can Vampires.

 

[Zhatan]

To me it is quite clear in the warhammer lore that all vampires are evil. Not evil in the same way as chaos perhaps but evil in the sense that they do whatever they want to further their own goals no matter the pain they inflict doing so.
The reason no vampire worships chaos might be that they far too self centered. If anything they would want to be the one worshipped.

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

To me it is quite clear in the warhammer lore that all vampires are evil. Not evil in the same way as chaos perhaps but evil in the sense that they do whatever they want to further their own goals no matter the pain they inflict doing so.
The reason no vampire worships chaos might be that they far too self centered. If anything they would want to be the one worshipped.

Yet many times in the lore it goes against it in these characters it mentions, Abhorash being a great example where he in fact goes out of his way to avoid hurting and protects people, many other vampires are the same jet the book only mentions a small hand full there are novels and thousands of others besides but they don't get screen time in a game based about battles.

Also it explains in the "Liber Necris" that vampires souls are bound to their bodies so even when destroyed they will rebuild themselves but they can never leave this world, due to that chaos can never claim their souls or effect them like they can mortals, its all fully explained if you read the right books.

 

[Zhatan]

Ah ok I have never read any novels about the warhammer world just the lore in rulebooks and armybooks. I guess it is possible that Abhorash had some other use for these people or that he was trying to appear kind.
But then again given that there are so many different authors to the warhammer novels there are bound to be some inconsistencies.

 

[Whisky Priest]

Ah ok I have never read any novels about the warhammer world just the lore in rulebooks and armybooks. I guess it is possible that Abhorash had some other use for these people or that he was trying to appear kind.
But then again given that there are so many different authors to the warhammer novels there are bound to be some inconsistencies.

I would have to say that the inconsistency is with the army books. They focus on one kind of vampire only - the monstrous army builder. The novels and all other background material ( and of these liber necris and nights dark masters are probably the ultimate sources) show vampires accross the entire spectrum of morality from the shining paladin that is jerik Bon Carstein to the blackest of the black next arch vampires.

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

Ah ok I have never read any novels about the warhammer world just the lore in rulebooks and armybooks. I guess it is possible that Abhorash had some other use for these people or that he was trying to appear kind.
But then again given that there are so many different authors to the warhammer novels there are bound to be some inconsistencies.

There are allot of novels and background books.
Abhorash at first refused to feed and starved himself to the point where he lost all control, for years after he lit a candle on the anniversary of those peoples death and wept for them.
He was a protector and after that day self control became the watchword of his line always governing themselves with iron like will like tempering a fresh blade.

You should read the background more, its easy to see things as back and white when you don't look beyond the surface, same in real life.

There are allot of authors but not one has wrote a side to be pure good or evil with the exception of beastmen...... Just so much rape.....



Its nice having such a diverse force, also I will note that the most pure realm of all humanity was the Kingdom of Strigos, much like rome, well ahead of its time and fair, laws were kept, people protected but over whelmed by barbarian hoards and Greenskins, the head of their blood line was killed by an enemy spell after killing the Orc Warlord. :slapface:

 

[Zhatan]

its easy to see things as back and white when you don't look beyond the surface, same in real life.

Not sure what you mean by that, but anyway...

I guess that I feel that the true lore is that of the army books and not the novels. Given what you said about them they are not really compatible.
It says on p.6 of the army book: "Even though traces of emotion still stir in their shrivelled hearts, the Blood Kiss has transformed them into monsters without exception."
It's just a matter of what you choose to believe.

 

[Whisky Priest]

You should try to get your hands on a copy of nights dark masters. In there it states that the blood kiss accentuates the current personality and emotions. Basically the vampire is a extreme version of their human personality. It also leaves them with actual individual motivations, unlike the ones in the army book who are effectively merely undead orks (vamp smash!!)

This makes the vampire far more interesting, ambiguous and challenging as an adversary / contact than the one dimensional (and thoroughly boring) monsters that the 8th edition portrays. You have to remember, NDM is a warhammer fantasy roleplay book - the whole point of which is to portray the warhammer world in a way that would make it a detailed, viable world - and to that creatures exist accross the entire spectrum of morality and motivation.

It's certainly, in my opinion, far more interesting that the extremely childish black and white morality of 8th ed.

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

its easy to see things as back and white when you don't look beyond the surface, same in real life.

Not sure what you mean by that, but anyway...

I guess that I feel that the true lore is that of the army books and not the novels. Given what you said about them they are not really compatible.
It says on p.6 of the army book: "Even though traces of emotion still stir in their shrivelled hearts, the Blood Kiss has transformed them into monsters without exception."
It's just a matter of what you choose to believe.

Though In the book It goes against this with Vlad and Isabella alone not to mention this is not the case in any prior army book, novel or background book.
However I got my book Errata'ed by Phil Kelly to make a point that this was not the case.

Honestly mate, read the back ground books, they are great for learning about races in the warhammer world and not just looking at them as destructive forces you find in the armies.

 

[Bounce]

I haven't read any of the novels myself but i think they make generalizing vampires a bit difficult. Considering Edward and Dracula are both vampires to talk about vampires as a concept is now rather tricky to do.

Personally I don't think anything is good or evil. We can do actions which may be good or evil and if we do lots of evil actions than we would generally be considered an evil person i.e Voldemort, Dracula, Sauron. That doesn't mean there isn't good in them too though

 

[Christophe von Carstein]

This thread is getting too deep for double shift Johnny.....

Can't we all just say people who play lizardmen and run Teclis are evil and call it a day?

My net died shortly after making that giant post so trust me mate, I feel you're pain, hell my computer died on the same day as well so is under repair whilst my net is down.

Now I do agree with you there WP, fantasy is far to cut and dry and within reason I would like to see more mixing of forces like the new 40k in 9th edition.

Also on a side note when where there so many mackems on this site??

Mwahahahahahahahaaaaa

We are here because Sunderland is bigger & better than you're little "Toon".
Enjoy Man United on the weekend.

By the way though mate you should drag yourself down to the regional tournament this november 4th down in Nottingham, Newcastle is selling tickets atm, got mine in my Local Sunderland Store if you are still Studying on this side of the water.

bigger and better really? I think i'll just agree to disagree with you there and aye I did enjoy Man Utd lol jk not but certainly looking foward to this sunday.

Its the first im hearing of regionals mate to be honest but that last actual game I had was against you so dont think im ready for them like.

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

This thread is getting too deep for double shift Johnny.....

Can't we all just say people who play lizardmen and run Teclis are evil and call it a day?

My net died shortly after making that giant post so trust me mate, I feel you're pain, hell my computer died on the same day as well so is under repair whilst my net is down.

Now I do agree with you there WP, fantasy is far to cut and dry and within reason I would like to see more mixing of forces like the new 40k in 9th edition.

Also on a side note when where there so many mackems on this site??

Mwahahahahahahahaaaaa

We are here because Sunderland is bigger & better than you're little "Toon".
Enjoy Man United on the weekend.

By the way though mate you should drag yourself down to the regional tournament this november 4th down in Nottingham, Newcastle is selling tickets atm, got mine in my Local Sunderland Store if you are still Studying on this side of the water.

bigger and better really? I think i'll just agree to disagree with you there and aye I did enjoy Man Utd lol jk not but certainly looking foward to this sunday.

Its the first im hearing of regionals mate to be honest but that last actual game I had was against you so dont think im ready for them like.

On topic Geordie boy.
Should of known you Mag's get sidetracked easily.
The Sunderland Vs Newcastle match though will be a good one.

I haven't read any of the novels myself but i think they make generalizing vampires a bit difficult. Considering Edward and Dracula are both vampires to talk about vampires as a concept is now rather tricky to do.

Personally I don't think anything is good or evil. We can do actions which may be good or evil and if we do lots of evil actions than we would generally be considered an evil person i.e Voldemort, Dracula, Sauron. That doesn't mean there isn't good in them too though

I really don't think you can compare Dracula and Edward Cullen ever in the same sentence.
It's like comparing a Michelin Star Restaurant and Bowel rupturing Diahorea caused by a truck stop Egg Mayo Sandwich.

All good and evil depends on how things are used.
For instance the empire employs necromancers to help in investigations, speak with the long dead from who they need information and other what not even to the point where they control the already risen to defend themselves but are not considered evil and for the most part are in the employ of the empire and the Cult of Sigmar.
Not sure though I could put Voldemort, Dracula and Sauron on the evil list.
Dracula no as he did love and he became a vampire for forsakin god after his love died whilst he was fighting in his name, Voldemort most probably as it was for his gain, Sauron...... I don't think he ever was a man to start with so calling him evil depends on whether or not you can apply that concept to him, I don't refer to Orcs as evil or Ogres but I am almost certain they would enjoy going on a bloody rampage and eating everybody they can.