Vampires are not Inherently Evil (Just Misunderstood)

[Shareya]

I believe most of the Vampire Wars fluff still works pretty good.

 

[Shareya]

And adding one more quote to this page. can find the other two on a page before.

It was the rage of something at once divine and bestial that was now trapped in a cage of sagging muscle and rotting meat. He knew that the dead were, on some level, aware of their fate, but never to this extent, and never before had he felt such hatred from a corpse.

Edit: I missed a quote. Said undeads glare was fiercer then Nagases own. So the weaker the undead the less it's aware of it's fate. Still undeath = badeh.

 

[Ordo Cruentus]

Extradiegetic! That was the word I was looking for before!

Vampires are Evil on the extradiegetic level, because GW has said so. Can't really argue with that.

And we have already gone into the intradiegetic narrative level, which indicates that Dhar = EVIL!!! period, so, yeah.

(My old Literary Criticism professor would probably punch me for not remembering those words for so long...

"Mr. White? What are you doing in my house?!"

*SMACK!!!)

 

[theknightofjello]

As I pointed out, a saurus or ogre has as much in common with a human as does a vampire. Some might argue even more so, since the two former are actually alive, and the latter is not.

This is fundamentally wrong because you're denying the important fact that vampires were at one time humans. In fact they still carry those memories/experiences over to there vampiric life. Vampires are capable of empathy with humans something that a saurus or ogre will never be able to do with a human. This is mentioned in multiple accounts of Vampires. A vampire was never born a predator, that is why the predator argument is flawed. A lion was always a lion. A vampire is a Gazelle that choose to become something lion like and eat other gazelles. And in my next point I'll show you why in our current lore vampires why I said 99% of vampires choose to do so.

And 99% of all warhammer vampires choose to be vampires? Im sorry, but where is that information from? Nowhere does it say in the army book that all vampires are created from people who desperatly wanted to become vampires. Jerek Krueger hardly chose his fate, and lo and behold, he became quite the decent vampire.

The story of Jerek's transformation is old lore where if you were bit you changed into a vampire. That is no longer the case. An important ritual called the blood kiss must be performed to become a vampire. Our newest rule book has this information in it. Secondly in third book of the new Nagash series Neferata attempts to transform Khalia where she either refuses to drink Neferata's blood or dies before she is able to. This is really important here because it shows that to become a vampire you must either be tricked into drinking the blood as in the case of Abhorash or you must completely willing to drink the blood. Because of the shift in our lore is why I say 99% choose to be vampires.

At the end of the day a vampire is not some mythical higher race like dragons. They are just humans. Humans that for the most part consciously chose to suffuse themselves with dark magic and to feed on their brethren. From the very moment a human chooses to be a vampire they have chosen to be evil.

 

[Malochai]

And 99% of all warhammer vampires choose to be vampires? Im sorry, but where is that information from? Nowhere does it say in the army book that all vampires are created from people who desperatly wanted to become vampires. Jerek Krueger hardly chose his fate, and lo and behold, he became quite the decent vampire.

Page 35 of Night's Dark Masters, Chapter IV - Nature of the Beast -

Although they may fear the unknown that lies beyond, very few are taken unwillingly, and none regret the gift once received.

The story of Jerek's transformation is old lore where if you were bit you changed into a vampire. That is no longer the case. An important ritual called the blood kiss must be performed to become a vampire. Our newest rule book has this information in it. Secondly in third book of the new Nagash series Neferata attempts to transform Khalia where she either refuses to drink Neferata's blood or dies before she is able to. This is really important here because it shows that to become a vampire you must either be tricked into drinking the blood as in the case of Abhorash or you must completely willing to drink the blood. Because of the shift in our lore is why I say 99% choose to be vampires.

I'm not sure when the story including Jerek Kruger was published, but if it was in Inheritance (which I think I vaguely remember it being?) the first book in the Vampire Wars/von Carstein Trilogy, then that was only published a year before NDM, which has an entire section on the Blood Kiss ...

In fact, as I'm reading that series anyway, I've just checked -

Von Carstein waited until his enemy was a second from death and sank his teeth into Kruger's throat. He drank hungrily, savouring the hot sweet coppery taste of the White Wolf's blood as it trickled down his throat. He pulled back before he completely drained the grizzled old warrior, grabbed a handful of hair and yanked his mouth open. Slowly, savouring the final delicious irony of the moment, the Vampire Count sank his teeth into his own wrist, drawing blood. He held the wound over Kruger's mouth, letting it drip down his throat.

That seems to refute your claim that it was created at a time before GW introduced the idea of the Blood Kiss (if there ever was a time they didn't have the Blood Kiss - I wouldn't know).

 

[theknightofjello]

My bad thanks for correcting me. I glossed over that bit. So i will conced that vampires can force vampirism on people. Does vampirism enthrall the lesser vampire or can a vampire break free of the lords power?

 

[Malochai]

I'm not 100% on that, but I would assume that feeding on someone repeatedly bends them to your will - hence the existence of mortal swains - although not immediately, otherwise everyone fed upon would be clamouring to offer themselves up as offerings to their mistress or master. The more you feed, the more you're bound to them. At least, that's how I imagine it!

I don't think that a vampire would be inherently bound to their sire through any magic or blood bond, but rather through a simple need to survive - they wouldn't know what they would need to if they immediately left their sire, be that how to control the Red Thirst, or the truth behind the rumours of their weaknesses. If they left immediately, they'd be much more likely to be discovered and killed by witch or vampire hunters

 

[theknightofjello]

Took me awhile to find but in seventh edition they talk more in depth about the blood kiss. Yes if you're given a blood kiss you are enthralled to the master vampire but eventually a vampire can break free with time.

Additional side note; is there any lore on if a vampire drinks another vampires blood what happens?

So back on course vampires evil ... rarrr

 

[Aren]

The Vampire Wars trilogy gives a little insight in the way of what happens when a vampire drinks the blood of another vampire - he/she absorbs some of its power...which makes sense really, if a vampire gives blood to a human then the human absorbs some of its power and so becomes a vampire....the same is true for vampires it seems.

We have yet to define what "evil" is. Some people would say killing a cow is evil, others would say it's right and proper. And to most vampires, humans are no more than cattle.

 

[Malochai]

It also happens in the Ulrika trilogy; it is considered either an intimate thing done between lovers, or done by superiors to show their dominance over those lower down in the food chain, which I find interesting!

 

[Shareya]

I'm not 100% on that, but I would assume that feeding on someone repeatedly bends them to your will - hence the existence of mortal swains - although not immediately, otherwise everyone fed upon would be clamouring to offer themselves up as offerings to their mistress or master. The more you feed, the more you're bound to them. At least, that's how I imagine it!

Only the strong willed. Normal humans/weaker mortals go all <3 after the first bite.

The Vampire Wars trilogy gives a little insight in the way of what happens when a vampire drinks the blood of another vampire - he/she absorbs some of its power...which makes sense really, if a vampire gives blood to a human then the human absorbs some of its power and so becomes a vampire....the same is true for vampires it seems.

I think it was a complicated issue. If a vamp drank the blood of a other vamp she got a temporary power boost but not a permanent one. Granted in all of the cases the vamp never drank the other vamp fully dry.

 

[The Dread King]

He felt the tormented spark of each spectre as it sought to numb its pain by swallowing the life of its former companions. The screams from within the last warren rose to a crescendo and he stretched, tasting the ashes of souls on his tongue.

Men, women and children, their hazy features twisted with incomprehensible agony. They moaned and screamed in silence, writhing beneath the weight of the chains. < this example is how vampires bind souls of their victims into...almost anything. Traps, spells, weapons, vehicles.

This is where the book talks about "spectres"; things like wraiths, banshees and restless spirits, not the common zombie/skeleton. I agree that the souls are resurrected here, though they can only be bound because they're stuck in the mortal plane and this is because (at least for banshees, wraiths and most other spirits) they've done something wrong (e.g. most wraiths are failed necromancers). So, they're not really innocent beings (except perhaps the spirits of a few hapless warriors) and so the vampires that do bind spirits - not all of them do this - are often not torturing innocents, only those who were stuck wandering earth anyway because they lived wickedly. Although those that do bind innocent souls are evil.

It was the rage of something at once divine and bestial that was now trapped in a cage of sagging muscle and rotting meat. He knew that the dead were, on some level, aware of their fate, but never to this extent, and never before had he felt such hatred from a corpse.

In regards to the zombie example, it refers to "the dead" rather than the soul, and this can be interpreted to mean that the remains of the brain/the mind/the nervous system left by the soul departing the body upon death are what is raised. The zombie is a corpse, merely "animated" as so many GW sources describe it, and the soul itself, one could argue, if it has left the body already, is gone.

Perhaps the "essence" of life is taken, maybe a dormant part of the soul. But this wouldn't cause agony to the soul itself, as life was gone from it already when the "essence" was taken. Therefore, the part the vampire didn't take wouldn't care that the "essence" had gone; the essence would not have the personality of the soul that left it.

Also, how would vampires be able to take the souls of those who had successfully departed to Morr's realm/whatever other death god land the souls of the dead go to? Wouldn't the god have some kind of magical defense against them? It just doesn't make sense that powerful immortals just go "yeah, ok, another vampire takes loads of souls from my realm. I'll have my priests kill them maybe, one day." Surely they would have enough power to stop the souls that were already in their realm from leaving? Though I can see a vampire binding the ones still walking the mortal plane.

 

[Ordo Cruentus]

Also, how would vampires be able to take the souls of those who had successfully departed to Morr's realm/whatever other death god land the souls of the dead go to? Wouldn't the god have some kind of magical defense against them? It just doesn't make sense that powerful immortals just go "yeah, ok, another vampire takes loads of souls from my realm. I'll have my priests kill them maybe, one day." Surely they would have enough power to stop the souls that were already in their realm from leaving? Though I can see a vampire binding the ones still walking the mortal plane.

You can get all kinds of goodies from the gods in WH, even against their will. And in Morr's case, he ALREADY hates undead to the point where he makes his followers go after them like nobodies business. The various miracles and such that the goodly(ish) gods perform in the material realm seem far and few between, and seem to require some sort of invocation or medium (priest, ritual, etc).

 

[Get of W'soran]

The Vampire Wars trilogy gives a little insight in the way of what happens when a vampire drinks the blood of another vampire - he/she absorbs some of its power...which makes sense really, if a vampire gives blood to a human then the human absorbs some of its power and so becomes a vampire....the same is true for vampires it seems.

I think it was a complicated issue. If a vamp drank the blood of a other vamp she got a temporary power boost but not a permanent one. Granted in all of the cases the vamp never drank the other vamp fully dry.

Logically it would probably only work if the other vampire was of a higher generation (had more of the elixer in their blood as it where).

Crazy old Melkhior drank W'soran dry, it never really says if it boosted his power but it makes a point of saying that it meant his sire could never come back.
Mel drank up his soul or something.

Edit: @Shar Which novels show Vamps drinking the blood of other vamps? I know Nefereta accuses W'soran and his disciples of it and he says something like "LOL ITZ NO SECRET!"

Also I feel Vamps are evil, the longer they are undead they less they can feel positive emotion in my opinion. But I cba going into it.

 

[Ordo Cruentus]

Which novels show Vamps drinking the blood of other vamps? I know Nefereta accuses W'soran and his disciples of it and he says something like "LOL ITZ NO SECRET!"

I know they do it in the Ulrika trilogy.

 

[Irisado]

One of the inherent problems with any discussion about whether vampires are good, evil, or neutral is that GW's conceptualisation of them, at least in the more recent army books, is one dimensional. They class vampires, pretty much, as all being evil, with some minor differences among them (e.g. Konrad Von Carstein versus the other Von Carsteins).

I haven't read enough of the novels to comment in detail, but it does seem to me that some of these make more of an effort to make vampires more interesting, and not just evil killers who go around slaughtering humanity and raising the dead.

My perception of vampires is that they are not necessarily evil. How they became a vampire has to be taken into account, along with their actions after becoming one. They don't all wage wars and try to conquer the world, although that's what a lot of GW's writing would have you believe.

 

[Shareya]

Crazy old Melkhior drank W'soran dry, it never really says if it boosted his power but it makes a point of saying that it meant his sire could never come back.
Mel drank up his soul or something.

Oh yes that is touched upon on Master of Death!

Edit: @Shar Which novels show Vamps drinking the blood of other vamps? I know Nefereta accuses W'soran and his disciples of it and he says something like "LOL ITZ NO SECRET!"

Also in Ulrika. Can't recall if it happened in Vampire Wars? Need to check!

 

[Malochai]

It's not happened so far in Vampire Wars, although I'm only up to the point where the Vamps are running from Altdord

 

[Aren]

Everyone in the Warhammer world is good to their friends and evil to their enemies. With a few exceptions.....as exceptions exist for anything, even for exceptions. So while Vlad was evil to humans, he was good to Isabella. So what if Mannfred wants to enslave humans and make an empire of the dead, is that evil?
You know the elves would if they could and it was easy for them to do so. Some vampires don't even care about the whole empire of the dead thing and just want to unlive out their unlives without being persecuted for what they are. It's really a case by case thing, just because you are a vampire does not make you evil.