Vargulf Tactics

[Yanda]

I also wouldn't consider the matchup vs. WoC to be all that great. Even without fire, which a unit of Chaos Warriors can pick up without much of an issue, a WoC army cean have lots of Frenzy (and its attendant ItP), and they can use the numbers of Marauders to grind him down as well.

I actually just played WoC like 2 hours ago and he performed really well. With the help of 2 Spirit Hosts he Managed to kill 5 Maurader Horsemen, a Warshrine, and 25 Warriors straightup by himself without any support without taking a single wound. I was confident during the game that he had no anwsers for it as it slowly picked off his units while I tied him up with choke points.

If there list is greedy with Extra Hand Weapons there isnt much they can do to Vargaulf.

 

[eggsPR]

So last night I was with my Warhammer buddies at the pub, and I brought up the viability of the Varghulf and what he brings to the table given his point value vs substitutes in this edition (Vargheists with similar functionality, Terrorgheist with MUCH more punch and in the same price range).

We all agreed that Varghulfs are cool fluffwise, but they should be left at home if you're going to be playing competitively. Apparently Mathhammer suggests in every way that Vargheists are superior given their point cost.

Also, and most people don't want to admit this (although a fellow VC player did), but they try and justify the Varghulf because they don't want to spend the money on the new models. At that point we switched the topic GW and their never ending quest on taking our money in any way possible... "No, for the 100th time, I STILL don't want Dreadfleet".

The Varghulf should've been reduced to 135 points IMO - then I'd consider it. Othersiwe my current Varghulf tactic is it being a really cool paper weight, or using the model as a Vargoyle.

 

[rothgar13]

Extra hand weapons are statistically inferior to Halberds, so that's reliant on your opponent not knowing math-hammer. Marauder Horsemen are a chaff unit, and should be treated as such.

 

[forever_alone]

I'm using 3 Vargheists for the same function as what my Varghulf used to fulfill, all while saving a whopping 37 points.

You get 9 wounds (average of 15 points/wound), flying, marching, skirmishing so many will hit you on 6s or even 7s, frenzy (ehh.. by turn 2 you can charge what you want to charge anyway, so deploy them facing backwards or out of vision arcs etc), 12 WS4 S5 attacks plus 3 stomps (equal to an average roll of thunderstomp). A lucky cannonball will only kill 1 model (at most) which still leaves 2 more to cause havock (more than enough to take out warmachine crew). Frenzy overrun is fine with me as well as I position my charges so that I know where I'll be after I smash through it and charge something else. No regen, no T5? Fine with me, I have 9 wounds to spare at T4. One Ruby Ring can kill a Vargy, but not against 9 wounds.

Did I mention you get all this for 37 less points!?!? You can play it MUCH more aggressively since the unit costs so much less and is more disposable.

My Varghulf rarely payed itself back in points, whether as my Vargheists more than payed for themselves in the 4 games I've used them.

Since Vargheists, my Varghulf joined my Zombie Dragon as dust collectors due to newer, more efficient alternate options.

however the vargheists are more vulnerable to arrows, also they don't cause terror and even with skirmishers they are harder to manoeuvre compared to vargulfs

 

[Xander]

The Varghulf should've been reduced to 135 points IMO - then I'd consider it. Othersiwe my current Varghulf tactic is it being a really cool paper weight, or using the model as a Vargoyle.

This makes no sense to me. Hatred, Bestial Fury, 4+ regen, thunderstomp. This is what you're getting for 175 points. Any army would KILL for this monster and it's cheap cost. This guy can go toe to toe with monsters that practically double his point-age. I completely disagree with you. I will almost never take vargheists. You have to babysit them with a general and most likely a BSB to control their movement. Leadership 7 frenzy is just asking for them to charge when you don't want them to. The vargulf is a cheap monster and can easily protect a flank of an army or bring a punch to the fights that really need it while only being the size of a base monster. I personally will choose the vargulf over the vargheist every time.

 

[Valvatorez]

Whilst I myself love the vargheists, and run a unit of 6 wherever possible, I don't consider them comparable to a varghulf. For it's points cost, I think it's extremely good and you have to remember that with such a small base size, you won't be getting many return attacks. I've charged mine into fully ranked units many a time and it very rarely loses. Last game I used it he single handedly wiped a unit of 10 cold one cavalry without taking a wound!

 

[F3ar]

If your looking for something to spend in that range of points for warmachine hunting or harassing, 2 units of vargheists or a terrorgheist. Varghulfs are the the paperweight in this book, His fury giving him no flanks or rears really is worthless, cause we all know what happens anyways when a single VC character or model gets charged from the front, rear or flank simo.

 

[Vampire Count]

The Varghulf should've been reduced to 135 points IMO - then I'd consider it. Othersiwe my current Varghulf tactic is it being a really cool paper weight, or using the model as a Vargoyle.

This makes no sense to me. Hatred, Bestial Fury, 4+ regen, thunderstomp. This is what you're getting for 175 points. Any army would KILL for this monster and it's cheap cost. This guy can go toe to toe with monsters that practically double his point-age. I completely disagree with you. I will almost never take vargheists. You have to babysit them with a general and most likely a BSB to control their movement. Leadership 7 frenzy is just asking for them to charge when you don't want them to. The vargulf is a cheap monster and can easily protect a flank of an army or bring a punch to the fights that really need it while only being the size of a base monster. I personally will choose the vargulf over the vargheist every time.

Sorry but for twice its points you can pretty much buy a star dragon which hits it on threes and wounds it on twos and has a strength 4 breath weapon and can fly and have an elf lord on

 

[rothgar13]

I agree that "taking on monsters double his points" is quite the exaggeration. The Varghulf will struggle against a Hydra, and that's his same points cost (whether it's fairly priced is a discussion for another thread). That said, the big fella isn't all bad. Hatred, WS5, and Thunderstomp are still pretty respectable, and not having Frenzy and being a lone model lets it be about as maneuverable as a unit of Vargheists. I'd consider him more of a complementary unit to jam into a flank to generate positive CR, and an expensive war machine hunter in a pinch. He can also jam weaker infantry in place if you get a good charge off.

 

[Chucknorris]

I really think that the Varghulf is one of the best rare choices we have. Its a strong hammer and its very cheap for the role it fullfills. For only 175 points u have a strong hammer-warmachine hunter who isnt easy to deal with. The most of our other rare choices cost more then 175 points and dont offer the versatility the varghulf has by a long shot.

I fullheartly disagree to the people who say vargheists and terrorgeist are a better choice.

Vargheists/blood knights are highly unreliable due to frenzy, and are easily dealth with by a throw away unit. To be fair I dont think vargeists belong to competetive play at all for this reason alone.

While terrorgeist is a strong and solid rare choice, its also more expensive. But more important is the fact that the terrorgheist counts as a large monster. This means that he's more easily dealth with by then the varghulf is. Even against shooty army's stays the varghulf a solid choice, while the terrorgeist is not.

Comparing the Varghulf with the cost effectiveness with a hydra is a dull argument. Everyone knows that the hydra is one of the most cost effective monsters in the game. Comparing a monster with a better choice from another army doesnt do the VC's good at all; we have GG while other army's dont have such cost effective elite units, but that doesnt makes other elite troops bad at all - even if there not as cost effective.

My conclusion is that the varghulf one of the cost effective rare choices is available to us. He's always usefull, be it our cheapest and toughest arrow magnet, or an effective hammer with a small footprint.

edit: sorry for my crappy grammar, but i dont have the time to fix it all

 

[Kaptain Von]

Extra hand weapons are statistically inferior to Halberds, so that's reliant on your opponent not knowing math-hammer.

Or having motives other than strict mathematical optimisation.

 

[rothgar13]

Mathematical optimization, whose only goal is to try and maximize your odds of winning the game. If you're ignoring it completely, you're either unaware of it, or are unwilling to invest a nominal amount of time to improve your odds of winning the game. So you're playing a competitive game, which Warhammer undeniably is, but you don't want to invest in improving your odds to win? ...Not much anyone can say to that sort of person, is there?

While I do agree with Chucknorris' premise that the Varghulf's main asset is flexibility, I do disagree with him regarding Vargheists. Those guys are very, very good, though it's for a different reason than the Varghulf. They fill a specialized role (the flank-crasher to turn bad fights into good ones), and they fill it very well. I think they're definitely going to see a lot of competitive play, Frenzy or not. Never forget that they are fliers, and thus get unlimited reforming (so you can have them facing wherever the heck you want). The only time your opponent should be able to Frenzy-bait them is the turn you're setting up a charge. In order to take advantage of the Varghulf offers, you have to build a list around his flexibility - in other words, create situations where you're glad you brought him along. I'm also of the opinion that 2 Varghulfs is the way to go - one of them can be focused down. Good luck doing that against two, and it's not like they're an incredibly large points investment.

 

[Kaptain Von]

Mathematical optimization, whose only goal is to try and maximize your odds of winning the game. If you're ignoring it completely, you're either unaware of it, or are unwilling to invest a nominal amount of time to improve your odds of winning the game. So you're playing a competitive game, which Warhammer undeniably is, but you don't want to invest in improving your odds to win? ...Not much anyone can say to that sort of person, is there?

I don't think we need the false binary opposition introduced by 'completely' here.

My point: halberds are mechanically superior to additional hand weapons, but mechanics are not the only factor involved in making decisions within this hobby.

Can you accept that other factors, i.e. aesthetics, are valid?

If yes, then we can have a potentially enlightening conversation about aesthetics, mechanics and balancing goals.
If no, then... not much anyone can say to you, is there?

 

[rothgar13]

You're right. I play this game to win. If your sole goal when playing it is not to win, we have nothing further to discuss. Fluff is all well and good, but once it starts interfering with mechanical efficiency, I throw it out like yesterday's trash. If you're proposing alternate mechanics for AHW's to be worth noting when compared to Halberds, by all means, take the floor. I'll be glad to read your argument, and hopefully contribute some thoughts of my own.

 

[Vampire Count]

I think it's important to consider that a lot of people do play 'to win' - they'd not deliberately throw a game away - but that doesn't mean it's their sole goal - enjoyment's probably the main one. Aesthetics and fluff are major considerations for a lot of people - in fact I believe they can make for more interesting tactical decisions. The challenge then becomes not 'what is the most cost efficient/statistically successful loadout/unit/setup I can take AND how can I bring this to bear to maximise my chances of victory', but rather 'given THESE restrictions, and given THIS set-up, how can I maximise my chances of victory'. Basically I'm just taking exception to the attitude expressed in "So you're playing a competitive game, which Warhammer undeniably is, but you don't want to invest in improving your odds to win?" which seems quite dismissive towards any attitude other than full-on WAAC. Nothing wrong with WAAC in my opinion, but nothing wrong with alternative lists and playstyles either. Obviously you've then got 'bad tactics' or 'bad logic', where people propose clearly inferior or less effective methods and try to pass them off AS superior ones, but that's a different matter entirely.
I hope my ramblings made sense :konrad:

 

[Kaptain Von]

You're right. I play this game to win. If your sole goal when playing it is not to win, we have nothing further to discuss.

Given that I don't even have a 'sole' and singular objective in play, it seems we're operating on very different premises. Don't think we can go anywhere with that, really. A shame, but better a shame than a flaming row, eh?

 

[Raizi]

Getting a bit off-topic, I suggest you two continue the conversation about your approach to the game in some other thread. But seeing how fruitful it is I recommend you don't.

About the topic, though: I think Vargulfs play very well on games of 2000pts or lower. They are flankers and really good when put on the opposite flank where your general is as they can march even if he is not there. I don't put Vargulf against the toughest or biggest units of my enemies from the start, but use it to pick up easy points and assist other units in the lategame. Warmachines, small units of cavalry and skirmishers. I seldom have a game where my Vargulf doesn't net more points than it's worth.

I will not debate the point of which one is better, 3 Vargheists, or a Vargulf as I've not yet played with Vargheists. If my opponent plays anything that has shooting flaming attacks, Vargulf stays home. Light or Fire magic is not a problem as I never play without a Dispel Scroll and a Scroll of Shielding. They help a lot.

 

[rothgar13]

I'm not terribly apprehensive of most flaming shots with a Varghulf, personally. A lot of them tend to be S3-4, and those don't hurt him unless they show up in huge numbers.

 

[General Drake]

I never take my varghulf against tomb kings, souly because of the compulsory casket - ld4 on x3 dice? Auto dead in turn one.

 

[Fluffytemplar]

I can't believe how little love there seems to be for the Varghulf in this thread! It seems like as soon as we got our shiny new Terrorgheist and Vargheists almost everyone dropped their Varghulfs like an overweight girlfriend. I rarely leave home without mine.

Truth be told I spend way more time mathammering things than I should and I'll admit unfortunately the Varghulf does come up short in a lot of situations, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have a role in a competitive army. (If all it took was statistics to win a game WoC would be nearly unbeatable)

I seems a lot of people are pointing out how a Varghulf can never make his points back, but there is so much more to this game than just that. Does anyone expect their Dire wolf units to make their points back? War machine hunting can be a good use for the Varg, as well as supporting combats, his movement really helps with controlling the board, just the idea that there is a combat monster running around wherever he likes behind their lines usually throws off a lot of opponents.

Some of my Vargs best moments, getting charged in the flank by treekin, doing 2 wounds and taking none in return, winning by one, breaking and over running them. Charging Khorne Chaos knights in the flank, killing one, taking no wounds, winning by 2, breaking and over running them. And charging a horde of 40 halberdiers in the flank, killing 7, taking no wounds, winning by 6, breaking and over running them. Best part is, in all those situations the Varghulf was just supposed to hold them up until I could work something more favorable into the mix.

You just need to know how to use him, Terrorgheists and Vargheists are point and click, a Varghulf is not.

By the way, on a side note does anyone else feel really bad for their opponent whenever you use your Terrorgheist to scream at something, roll really high and the whole unit/character just explodes? First time I ever used mine I rolled boxcars screaming at a unit of 10 empire knights on the flank top of turn 1. My opponent just looked at me like he was lost "...you don't roll to hit?...or wound?...That was 300pts!" From then on, everytime I use him I apologize to my opponent.

 

[meowser]

I always run two. They tag tag team just about anything, and control a flank w some chaff to redirrct unwanted threats

 

[Demian]

I'd just like to use my Varghulf to assassinate mages in Units. It's really annoying to have Death wizards explode your Terrorgheists, so there must be some way to counter it.

Varghulfs counter it =D!

 

[Johnny-Crass]

I use mine as a anti-chaff and warmachine hunter.

 

[N1AK]

I think there may be some mileage in going for critter spam: 2x Varghulf & 1x Terrorgheist with lots of Varghiests and/or Horrors. Flaming is a risk, but if you have 5 units with good regen then you're very unlikely to face someone who has a hard counter for more than 2.

Run the 2 Varghulfs up together, as others have suggested, and you'll decimate infantry units.

 

[Dogmar]

I think the Varghulf is a great support piece to our army especially in lower points games. I use mine to hunt down warmachines, chaff and occassionally support a close combat (against core infantry or in a combat I expect to win anyway) for more killing power and the better chase move. For these things he really shines with hatred, thunderstomp, high WS and regen. Against things that force a lot of wounds, have incredibly high AS (or with the flaming banner obviously) he's not so good. High enemy toughness is not his friend either but I say it definitely has its uses as a supporter. For getting rid of high AS or toughness you can always have the TG or great weapon wielding GG in higher points games.