VC vs WoC 2000pts Lost again.

[spla5hmummy]

I'm not going to do a turn by turn, just a brief summary to hopefully help you guys avoid what I had last night.

Firstly and most importantly. Never ever ever let your chaos opponent get off the spell Pandemonium. Unfortunately I was so busy dispelling the magic missiles being constantly aimed at my Lord (which would have ended the game in one fell swoop) that I didnt have enough dispell dice leftfor the horror that is Pandemonium.

For those that don't know the spell, it stops your units from enjoying the leadership of attached characters and causes your spells to misfire on any double, not just ones. It stays in play until dispelled using your own power dice. I had five misfires from my Lord and one from a vampire which caused him to explode (at least he took two chaos knights with him!). On three occasions the misfires allowed my opponent to fire off one of his spells without needing to roll to cast which was a killer.

I would have pulled off a summon undead horde if not for the double four it contained. Between this and his dispell dice I had pretty much no magic the entire game.

Secondly, get rid of those muppets on their flying disks early. They followed my flying Lord around all game firing magic missiles at him. Varghulfs rip through them like tissue paper, unfortunately mine weren't in a position to charge until the last turn when they killed his Lord and one of his heroes.

The third reason I did so badly was that my black knights charged his marauders in the second turn and they simply fled. I was left standing in the middle of nowhere. I'll never get used to the rule that allows units to flee when charged. It makes a complete mockery of any attempt to strategise properly. My black knights got wiped out in his turn when they got charged by his knights and failed all their armour saves.

So I lost. Not as badly as I might have done since my varghulfs got stuck in at the end but I'm sure it was still a massacre. I hope you guys reading this take the necessary precautions when facing chaos and avoid the same fate.

EDIT: I should add that crumbling while pandemonium is active is loads of fun. I had to use my skeletons' leadership of three and rolled a ten twice.

 

[darebear]

I play a lot against chaos, a lot. I also play a lot of Chaos myself. Here are some additional tips:

I never charge Chaos unless I am sure I can reach them, even if they flee. March straight up to them and then spam Van Hels until you get it off and Dance into them. If they flee they will die.

Have several dispel scrolls for the nasty Tzeetch spells that will come your way.

Remember that once his wizard casts a remain in play spell he cannot cast anything else. If he does then that spell is automatically dispelled.

Chaos magic missiles are killers. Your characters should never be alone. Always bunker them.

Summon Undead horde is honestly a crap spell. You are better to spam IoN. If he spends dispel dice then so much the better.

Have two corpse carts with balefire. Again, Chaos magic is NASTY. Not stopping it is not an option.

Beware that one Chaos banner allows any break test of doubles or a 1 to count at insane courage. Therefore autobreaking them via fear is hard.

Chaos has a banner that gives them eternal frenzy. Again, breaking them via fear will not happen.

Chaos Knights cause fear so you will need at least a terror causing critter to auto break them, assuming you charge them with Blood Knights or something similar.

Chaos has two magic items that can cause your general to miscast automatically and move your miscast roll up or down D3. Beware of those items.

Chaos usually has few units on the table (unless they go with a Marauder horde). Try investing in terrain that is impassable: like mountains or large hills. Place them on one flank and use Black Knights and ethereral units to flank their entire force and take them in the rear. If you combine this with a charge from Grave Guard the effect can be devestating.

Killing blow is your friend. Chaos armor saves and ward saves are insane. Killing blow negates this advantage. Use the staff of Damnation to maximize this advantage. Chaos rarely flees....you must kill, kill, kill.

Don't charge Chaos Knights with a lone combat Lord on a zombie dragon or abyssal terrior, even in the flank or rear. In fact never charge Chaos Knights unless you have supporting units to surround them. They are suprisingly resiliant.

Curse of years is your friend. Use this nasty spell to remove rank bonuses from the Chaos Warriors.

Setup at the end of the table and use Fell bats to land behind the chaos lines. This will march block them and since chaos has little shooting other then magic you will slow their army to a crawl. If you combine this tactic with impassable terrain and create a bottleneck you can dictate the flow of the battle. The longer the game goes on the stronger vampires should become. Park your casters behind the impassable terrain and use curse of years to kill them off. Chaos rule the close combat phase and there is no reason to play their game. Once they are reduced in size you can engage them with superior numbers and break them.

Remember the Chaos weaknesses: lack of flying units, lack of skirmishers, no shooting, slow units, expensive units, low troop density. Use terrain to your advantage, exploit the weaknesses above and strive to dominate the magic phase. Follow that advice and you will do well (unless you roll poorly).

 

[spla5hmummy]

Remember that once his wizard casts a remain in play spell he cannot cast anything else. If he does then that spell is automatically dispelled.

Ooo, interesting. I'm fairly sure the wizard who cast this spell was firing magic missiles at me afterwards. May have even been the one who killed my lord. I'm sure he wouldn't have done this on purpose but he may have forgotten the rule.

 

[dabber]

Pandemonium has less impact on VC than any other army (except TK). We generally don't care about the leadership, and we mostly use one dice to cast. Why would you even consider undead horde with pandemonium up?

 

[darebear]

Yes, people often forget that rule. Dont metion it next time and when he casts a spell then remind him of the rule. That will teach him to learn the magic chapter.

If pandemonium is in play you simply dont throw more then one dice, period. Get rid of that spell first. Miscasting with Chaos is bad because they often take the item that can mod your roll by D3. You risk popping your vampire by doing that. Summon Undead Horde is something I never ever use. You can achieve more results by spamming lower lever spells. Magic is a key part of vampires and you cannot even afford one miscast. The only time I ever throw more then 2 dice is when I am going for curse of years, then I throw 3.

 

[spla5hmummy]

Pandemonium has less impact on VC than any other army (except TK). We generally don't care about the leadership, and we mostly use one dice to cast. Why would you even consider undead horde with pandemonium up?

Because I'm a beginner. This was only my third game.

Surely you risk a lot by casting IoN with only one dice? You have only a 50% chance of pulling it off. You can only cast a spell once a turn so what do you do with the other power dice? The next easiest spell to cast is raise dead and that's a 5+.

At least I can see why people like that +1 one modifier so much if they're only using one dice to cast spells.

I also don't see why we don't care about the leadership thing. Without a vampire, skeletons crumble on a roll of 4+ on two dice. That's horrendous, they drop like flies. I lost seven from one unit two turns running.

 

[TMS]

Actually Spla5hmummy, IoN, raise dead and the danse macabre can be cast an infinite amount of times by each caster that knows them, provided that you have enough dice. This is thanks to them being "necromancy spells" as stated in the VC army book and its also what makes IoN spamming with a single dice so attractive, heheh.

Also, Darebear, I wouldn't really call the summon undead horde spell to be crap. More than once have I used it to completely refresh units of black knights and blood knights (often in the same casting, heheh) in one go, which would take a lot more to do with IoN alone. When pandemonium is up though, it might not be the wisest of choices.

 

[spla5hmummy]

Wow, some serious eye openers happening here. I've been playing my army way below its potential. Thanks to all you guys for assisting the noob. Obviously my club mates have been leading me astray.

 

[Aegis]

Just means next time you guys play, you'll get to kick their armies teeth in. =D

 

[The Inspector]

Obviously my club mates have been leading me astray.

Not necessarily. They may just suppose the guy with the army book to know the rules within it

Good luck in your future games, and welcome to the hobby and forum.

 

[spla5hmummy]

Not necessarily. They may just suppose the guy with the army book to know the rules within it

I was really referring to the rule about your remain in play spells being dispelled when you cast. That's a regular rule surely, not one unique to a codex. Unfortunately multiple attempts on my part to secure a Skull Pass rulebook have resulted in failure. I'm not paying £30 for a rulebook that promises to expire in little more than a year. I just have a 4th edition rulebook that I've used to get a rough idea of the game. I take everything in it with a pinch of salt, preferring to trust people who have a copy of the current ruleset.

As for knowing my codex, I've only had it a month and I've read through it umpteen times in that period. Unfortunately I'm cursed with a memory that holds thoughts like a South African jail holds prisoners. I probably read that rule about multiple castings a number of times and each time it was back on the street stealing old ladies' handbags within minutes.

There are three things that start going as you get old. The first is your memory. I forget what the other two are...

BTW Darebear: Do Chaos have any items they can take that allows them to ignore the 'previous upkeep spells are dispelled upon new casting' rule?

 

[Kaptain Von]

Chaos usually has few units on the table (unless they go with a Marauder horde). Try investing in terrain that is impassable: like mountains or large hills.

Note: rigging terrain placement in your favour will see you dubbed douchebag faster than prunes through a short grandmother. It's not cool. Using what's there = good strategy, always playing on your same bottlenecking you-friendly setup = cowardice and shenanigans.

Exception granted if you're taking on a bigger douchebag than yourself, especially if they're a filthy terrain-rigging mongrel or Wood Elf player (I'll take it from Wood Elves because the rules say they can place a piece of terrain to their advantage, but I still think it's an easily-abused rule and disapprove of it most strongly).

 

[spla5hmummy]

Ye, I used the terrain fairly badly. I placed my black knights in the centre so they could charge across the open ground. Of course I forgot that black knights can charge straight through terrain. I could have had my skellies in the middle.

 

[dabber]

Because I'm a beginner. This was only my third game.
Surely you risk a lot by casting IoN with only one dice? You have only a 50% chance of pulling it off. You can only cast a spell once a turn so what do you do with the other power dice?

Ahhh. Spam-casting is what other players most hate about VC. It is annoying. I've watched my opponents face as he holds his dispel dice waiting for me to cast a bigger spell. His expression slowly fell as he realized I'm not casting anything but Invocation all magic phase.
I've played more than a half dozen games and never cast anything but Raise Dead, Invocation and Danse with a 10 power dice army. And won them all, including against a couple *hard* armies with decent players. It has discouraged me from playing more.

I also don't see why we don't care about the leadership thing. Without a vampire, skeletons crumble on a roll of 4+ on two dice.

If your general is dead, you are probably losing anyway. Rarely will saving a few skeletons via hero leadership be as useful as directly killing a few with a different spell.

 

[TMS]

Ahhh. Spam-casting is what other players most hate about VC. It is annoying.

Be that as it may, I just can't ever get it to work out in my favour. I keep on rolling those 1's and 2's.

Not much to do about it other than to try and boost my spirit, heheh.

 

[darebear]

Terrain is part of the game. You dont always have to play the same setup no. But it is part of the game and you always run the tisk of not getting the side you want after terrain setup. Also, the other player can end terrain placement after only one piece. Finally, from the centre of the table there cannot be any terrain within 12". That gives a frontage of 24" to move an army though. Hardly unfair. All armies are not equal. Lizardmen work great with lots of water and woods; Beastmen work great with lots of woods as do wood elves. Shooting armies work well with hills and open ground. Bretonnia works well with open ground. Vamps work well with terrain that lets them choose when and where they will attack. Combine Black Knights with a large forested hill and Van Hels and you have a dangerous flanking force. Is it fair? Yes. No different from facing a huge Skaven shooting army with 3 pieces of terrain.

---

As for Summon Undead Horde, the only time I may use it would be in the case where I have several vampire units in combat which need healing ASAP. I play a lot vs. Dark Elves and Chaos and miscasting with those armies is very dangerous and with the Dark Elves having an item which causes miscasts on any doubles the spell above is just too risky to cast. Also, since vamps can only receive one wound back per spell and cavalry a max of 2 I dont see how this spell is worth the investment of 4 dice to throw (I guess you can throw three but that is quite a gamble, at least equal to rolling 1 dice in IoN). Crap was a bad choice on my part. Against the foes I play against it sees little use.

Mummy: no, chaos does not have any of those items. However, they have two items which can end the game instantly. One will cause a miscast on ANY failed casting roll on your part (this is a one use item). The second item allows them to move your miscast roll up or down D3 (this item can be used over and over again). These two combined can pop your general instantly, even with a failed 1 dice casting of IoN. Dark Elves have the Ring of Hotek which causes a mistast on any doubles rolled. I play a LOT against these foes and I guess I have been conditioned to play very cautiously when it comes to magic. When i roll dice I follow these guidelines:

IoN - 1 dice
Raise Dead/Dance/Gaze - 2 dice
Curse of Years - 3 dice
Wind of Undeath/Summon Undead Horde - almost never use but if I did, 3 dice.

Also, maybe I read your post wrong but just so you know undead do not retreat or make break tests, although you do die in combat resolution though. Therefore, mostly leadship is irrelevant (unless your foe is playing Chaos with Harry the Hammerer!). Also, if your general crumbles, vampires and characters do not take crumble checks and you can use their leadership in units they are in for crumble checks. Also, you can take regen saves vs. crumble. You probably already know this but I wasnt sure.

Vampires take some time to get to learn. Playing vs. Chaos is hard when you are new. However, they are a very one dimensional army, with virtually no shooting. This will teach you the elements of maneuver and close combat well. Chaos are the undisputed masters of close combat. That being said you must outmaneuver them since outfighting them will be difficult. Take away those rank bonuses and get those flank and rear charges and you may prevail. Just watch out of that Chaos Lord of Khorne on a Juggernaught of Khorne with a 0+ armor save kitted out with the Chaos Runeshield (negates magical weapons) and the Crown of Everlasting Conquest (gives regeneration) in a unit of Chaos Knights with magical resistance (2) and the Banner of Eternal Frenzy. That fellow can ruin your whole day.

If you are going to play a lot against Chaos you need to get the Codex. Unless you know how to handle them Chaos can and will rip you apart in close combat. They have a lot of magic resistance if they so chose to invest in it and a huge selection of magical items which specialize in causing you pain. The sooner you know your enemy the sooner you will be able to counter their suprises.

 

[spla5hmummy]

Also, if your general crumbles, vampires and characters do not take crumble checks and you can use their leadership in units they are in for crumble checks.

Not in this case sadly. The active Pandemonium spell prohibited my units from using the leadership of the heroes.

 

[Veilwalker]

You do realize that you are doing crumble wrong. Either than or your explanation was not clearly written.

You do not take a leadership test for crumbling from combat. You simply take a number of wounds equal to how much you lost combat by. If you lose combat by 2 then you take another 2 wounds from crumbling.

If your general dies then at the beginning of every one of your subsequent turns you take a leadership test and if you fail the test you take wounds equal to how much you failed the test by.

 

[spla5hmummy]

If your general dies then at the beginning of every one of your subsequent turns you take a leadership test and if you fail the test you take wounds equal to how much you failed the test by.

Yes, I rolled a 10 for my skeletons' leadership test twice. Their leadership is 3. I failed by 7 both times and lost 7 skeletons from the unit both times.