VCs are now unstable.

[Xacatecas]

Unstable makes you suffer wounds after losing combat. Ethereals can only suffer wounds from magical sources. Ergo, Ethereal units cannot suffer wounds from losing a combat.

'The magic that empowers Unstable creatures is prone to ebbing and flowing with the tide of battle. The more heavily beset unstable creatures are, the more likely that the magic that binds them will fade away.'

Sounds very much like a magic source to me...

 

[Brian Mage]

I think the Mods should sticky this thread as:-

"CN's biggest over-reation to date - a lesson on making sure you read a rule before panicing about it"

 

[Lord Skrolk]

Jesus wept lads. I have been playing Warhammer for 23years and if there is one thing I have learnt above all, its that IT IS ONLY A GAME. Don't cry and whinge about it, don't take it so seriously. There is no master sales plan from GW, they aren't the Antichrist, its is inevitable that a Wargame such as this will never be completely balanced. IMO, it will be one of those things that's a lot worse on paper anyhow. I think us Vamps needed taking down a peg or two. We had far too much in our favor, and sadly a lot of beardy players chose to exploit these things in over-competitive POWER GAMING. Get over it, be a better general, work to our strengths rather than moan about or weaknesses. Maybe its about time we took a bit of a power tumble. I for one used to hate winning with VC only to be told it was largely due to my imbalanced list, broken army and unfair advantage. So maybe, just maybe, you will actually have to start playing Warhammer properly.

Regen saves from CR are rare anyway, unless its your Varghulf going toe to toe with something he is almost certain to loose against, ie block of infantry. Or on the almost certainly cheesy death star Uber GG unit you all toss off about with BSB Drakenhoff banner. If your going into a combat relying on a 125pt banner to regen your Unstable crumbling saves, then your playing to your weaknesses not your strengths. That banner is to save us from shooting and give us a much needed save in Combat, not an extra save at the end of combat. And really, if you think about this fluffwise, why on earth would a 'Helm of Savey-things' make the tiniest bit of difference to you when your are crumbling and turning to dust? Those Ward saves are just that, they are there to Ward of blows and missile fire.

Jeez. lol

I ain't about to start packing up my army like some sissy spoiled brat cos they aren't as Uber killy as they once were. Take a leaf out of any Ogre Kingdom players book.

:skull:

 

[Arkhan]

Hmm, I wonder how I will fare against my friends Demon army now?

 

[Gladius Rex]

There is no master sales plan from GW,

I agree with everything except this small statement. I am of full belief that the new Horde Rules and buffs to all things Monster is a clever tactic by GW to get people to buy more of the expensive metal monster models, and for armies like us, skaven, and O&G to feel like we need more boxes of core to get by than we did in prior days.

i believe there is a method to GW madness and i believe it begins with our wallets lol.

G-Rex

 

[Lord Skrolk]

hmmmmm

 

[Aegis]

There is no master sales plan from GW,

I agree with everything except this small statement. I am of full belief that the new Horde Rules and buffs to all things Monster is a clever tactic by GW to get people to buy more of the expensive metal monster models, and for armies like us, skaven, and O&G to feel like we need more boxes of core to get by than we did in prior days.

i believe there is a method to GW madness and i believe it begins with our wallets lol.

G-Rex

Why do you think all the new boxes are a rank a piece >.<

 

[Lord Skrolk]

your probs right, which is partly why i have just bought shed loads of mantic skeles

 

[merenwen]

Playing my first games since rule changes last night i realized just how many more models i need to buy now! had to make do with using my fiancees dwarf pieces as skele warriors because im not used to using so much core! lol

I did find it much harder to keep my core from crumbling then i was used to but i don't think we are overly bad, we just need to re think our strategy. people keep saying we cant cast as much but i have been casting loads! i really like the new magic rules, i think we may have been nerfed a bit, but that just stopped us from being the most powerful team in the game, has made it farer. we were number one in teer ranking and now we obviously wont be anymore but it just means we have to play with more skill rather then abusing that 17 power dice glitch in the 7th edition. We shouldnt give up on VC's just coz they might not be top teer anymore.

 

[Cryxx]

I see alot of people wanting to quit the vampire counts because of rules changes, but I keep wondering: Are there no who dosn't care because it's the army they love? I play orks in 40k and I don't what they do to them rules wise, I still love the army and always will.

But then again, maybe I'm just weird.

 

[merenwen]

i completely agree with you Cryxx, i still love Vampire counts and always will, you shouldn't just play an army because it is the best, play it because you like them!

 

[Royals]

I'm getting back into the game and I'm playing Vampire Counts again because I like them. Not playing an army because, "They're not competitive anymore" is childish and part of the reason I stopped playing with people at my local store.

Play the army because they're super cool!

Stop Whining! You are soft! You lack discipline!

 

[Arkhan]

Yeah, Cryxx is right, even if my VC has been diminished I still love them vampires and undead to much to just go with the flavour of the month.

 

[SethDrallitoc]

But for those of you who are packing it in. You can send your armies my way for um... Recycling! Good for the environment and good for me!

 

[Templar31p]

To quote from above:

"Regen saves from CR are rare anyway, unless its your Varghulf going toe to toe with something he is almost certain to loose against, ie block of infantry. Or on the almost certainly cheesy death star Uber GG unit you all toss off about with BSB Drakenhoff banner. If your going into a combat relying on a 125pt banner to regen your Unstable crumbling saves, then your playing to your weaknesses not your strengths. That banner is to save us from shooting and give us a much needed save in Combat, not an extra save at the end of combat. And really, if you think about this fluffwise, why on earth would a 'Helm of Savey-things' make the tiniest bit of difference to you when your are crumbling and turning to dust? Those Ward saves are just that, they are there to Ward of blows and missile fire."

Cheesy death star Uber GG? Hmmm, based on everything I have played against and seen played, apparently the entire 8th edition for any army is cheesy now. Maybe WE's are the only ones not using a massive core or special block of guys. Hell, we almost have to do it now with our core. We were playing blocks of guys in 7th edition before it became cool in 8th in other words.

Blocks are not cheesy when your entire unit strength comes from having a lot of guys. Show me where you are smart and only take like five grave guard to a unit or only 10 ghouls to a unit now. Hey, at least no one will say your being cheesy.... only mentally retarded while they laugh and squish your guys into paste. That banner was a save for one unit. Ever played against warriors of chaos who can get a +5 ward save? How about for their whole army? And it costs less than our regen banner which is negated by fire. Now couple the WoC with some magic resistance and boom, you have a 4+ against magic. Ya, VC were really cheesy by taking a single 125pt banner all right...

I say, if there is an item in your book that you can take to help you, then take it. I could care less if someone thinks it is cheesy. If they can't get around the item, then THEY are the ones who need to learn to play better. The game is not called WARCRAFT where everything has to be balanced. The idea of Warhammer is that you do not have balanced armies otherwise Warhammer would only consist of one army that everyone played the same way.

It sucks, I didn't want the banner or the ward saves to lose their potency against crumble. But, combine that with our loss of fear, seemingly impossible way for our core to inflict any combat altering wounds and the VC have taken a large step back. I'll keep grinding away at finding a good tournament list, but I believe it is close to impossible to find a way. Currently I'm just trying to find a way to grind down a massive wall of warriors from the WoC group with two warshrines. The shrines I can handle, but his warriors combined with his heavy cav are something I cannot handle very well.

 

[Skarsnik the Lord]

Cheer up, I don't think Unstable is so bad thing in the end... Of course it sucks, but I still won't sell my army or stop playing them, we just have to play right.

So, The Drakenhof Banner, a Varghulf and a Black Coach is nerfed now. Let's start from that.

The Drakenhof banner was too cheesy in 7th edition, so now it got nerfed. The banner is too expensive now as it can only regenerate wounds caused by enemies (and crumbling when the general is dead, but usually then the game is already done ) so it's not necessary anymore. Or at least good. I think Flag of Blood Keep is going to be taken in 8th edition instead of The Drakenhof Banner, as it's cheaper and better against shooting (watch out for those Flamers and flaming Bolt Throwers! ). So all in all losing this banner isn't so bad thing...

A Varghulf is now easier to kill, but it needs just some tactical eye. Just keep the beast out of the too big combats. it can still destroy war machines, fast cavalry (if your opponent uses them anymore) and even Knights from flank in rare situations. As Varghulf got Thunderstomp it's even nastier in combat!

A Black Coach works just like before, it just got better in 8th edition (it gets faster abilities, Str7+ autokill is gone etc.). Just like Varghulf, you just have to play it right, it's not good gaming when you charge a ranked enemy unit with a chariot. :lol:

I don't think it's very big deal all in all, it sure nerfed us but we are still playable.

 

[Vengeance Crusader]

Stop crying like children, drink a cup of concrete and harden the **** up.

Here here!

Well said!

Its an annoying hit, this update- BUT We will be fine

 

[N.I.B]

I do hope a lot of people quit VC over this. I don't like to share my meals. I'm actually glad that so many thinks VC are totally nerfed.

 

[Gladius Rex]

VC is my only army and it isnt going anywhere, if i stop playing Warhammer, i got a really nice set of model for a D&D game lol!

End of the day, I think we will be fine, and I think our Army book when it releases shall be our salvation. It seems like regens will now vary like wards, so maybe the expensive "Dickenhof Banner" will be a 3+ regen, or 2+ regen, and we can all rejoice that our mac n cheese has been restored lol.

Maybe the regen on the Varghulf will get better, or maybe stat lines will change on some core or special units.

Maybe our heroes will get even better or we will get some really good new magic items, just look at the major changes to the common magic item list.

I mean... they OWE us one more banner now and anyone can get a flaming attack banner from common, so imho they owe us two new banners! Lets see what they do with em, we may get a huge boost, so lets be patient.

G-Rex

 

[Bishop]

I for one will carry on playing... the change to Unstable is really minimal in most cases. I will miss the saves on the Varghulf and the Coach... but I never took the Drakenhoff Banner anyways... so, that matters not to me.

I'd be nice if they point dropped some of the units though, given the change to the Fear/Terror rules (no more autobreak) alot of our units are over-costed now.

I have 2 40k armies using 10+ year old rules/codices... they can still be relatively competitive and fun to play.

Personally, I'm glad the VC aren't top 3 anymore... means that people will be using different armies instead!

 

[Gneisenau]

Cheer up, I don't think Unstable is so bad thing in the end... Of course it sucks, but I still won't sell my army or stop playing them, we just have to play right.

So, The Drakenhof Banner, a Varghulf and a Black Coach is nerfed now. Let's start from that.

The Drakenhof banner was too cheesy in 7th edition, so now it got nerfed. The banner is too expensive now as it can only regenerate wounds caused by enemies (and crumbling when the general is dead, but usually then the game is already done ) so it's not necessary anymore. Or at least good. I think Flag of Blood Keep is going to be taken in 8th edition instead of The Drakenhof Banner, as it's cheaper and better against shooting (watch out for those Flamers and flaming Bolt Throwers! ). So all in all losing this banner isn't so bad thing...

A Varghulf is now easier to kill, but it needs just some tactical eye. Just keep the beast out of the too big combats. it can still destroy war machines, fast cavalry (if your opponent uses them anymore) and even Knights from flank in rare situations. As Varghulf got Thunderstomp it's even nastier in combat!

A Black Coach works just like before, it just got better in 8th edition (it gets faster abilities, Str7+ autokill is gone etc.). Just like Varghulf, you just have to play it right, it's not good gaming when you charge a ranked enemy unit with a chariot. :lol:

I don't think it's very big deal all in all, it sure nerfed us but we are still playable.

This.

I'm happy to see that there are others who share my opinion on these changes, even though they put it in harsher language than I would...

Remember that the Drakenhof banner was seen as one of the biggest balance issues in the VC book in 7th edition. It still has its purpose, because it can still help you to win the melee by denying CR.

And on the upside, Helm of Command got so much better that it isn't even funny.

 

[Crovax Accendant Evincar]

I actually can't belive how many people are going to drop there vampire counts because the new rule changes have made it harder to achieve victory,tbh I think it's really sad and should remember that this is a GAME! It is not real war does it really
matter if you do lose and you learn a few things in the process,yes are infantry are poor and will suffer more casualties than usual so just raise more of them to soak it up,start of with bigger units,keep them 5 wide to negate those extra attacks all the horde units are going to be throwing at you.

I really do belive a lot of people just see the negative all the time,now that they can't have there draken "I'm not going anyware no matter what you do" hoff
combo,seriously stop throwing ure bottle out of your pram and be an adult about it,I'm sorry if I've caused offence to anyone but I'm kinda annoyed lol,since I've joined this website I've read people celebrate the vamps and how they are a cool army to use and collect and now I see many of the same ppl bitch and moan

Again if I've offended I apologise,rant over

 

[coeur]

Im planning to start VC now for the first time and in fact reading this has made it seem all the more appealing! Okay, so my core units of skeletons and zombies will be crumbling like mad, and now the bigger ones cannot use ward saves and regens on them...

This sounds good. My entire army is going to be kind of fluffy. My lord is a vampire who believed in nothing but power, magical domination. He will take lore of death, for killing. Sure, beasts is probably better for buffing. But he is an arrogant vampire lord!!!! He doesnt want to make those undead stronger, they're minions! Fodder! Worthless tools. He wants to see things die, by HIS hand. Preferably far away because he is no fool to dive into melee!! no no no.

I want to see those tools crumble about me, so when the proverbial S**t hits the fan, he can scream about how his worthless tools let him down (not his own lack of ability no-no-no.) it will be like Grey seer Thanquol in the books. Think of it as immersion. Undead falling to bits around you as the magic that holds them together, makes sense.

Undead holding together because a banner gave regen, and now you're relying on that to somehow negate the very magic holding them together from falling apart!? The immersion is gone, you come crashing back to reality and realise you're sitting at a table with a bunch of men who smell slightly mouldy, moving tiny figures that cost you insane amounts of money.

And your painting sucks. It's a harsh reality check. One I don't like being hit with.

For those people who claim they can reliably win 8/10 games without trouble.... well, that doesn't seem all that balanced to me. Sure you may believe you are a great general, but this is warhammer sadly... the bare minimum of real tactics are analysed here. You won't see anyone considering Alexander Sukorov's tactics here, nor Napoleans or even Ceaser's. Instead it's... battle line meet battle line. See who can flank more successfully. I've met many people who claim to have "so many years undefeated streaks," and ive found them incredibly disappointing. They either run armies so tailored to technicalities and arguments that I wonder if they even have fun... if they win they seem more relieved they haven't lost the streak, than actually pleased with themselves.

Sadly real tactics wont yet come into this game, until they offer us faster reform options and the ability to shift battle lines while in combat, say for the ability to shift backwards to lure people out of position. On the battlefield in real life it's often what you know the enemy is doing (and what you dont know) that has the greatest effect. I.e. Once Caeser hid legionarries beneath his horsemen, who sprung up in ambush when Pompeii's greater cavalry charged Caeser's. Or for instance, Alexander the great would shift huge amounts of cavalry behind his own lines, after a battle had started. So for all intents and purposes, he had even cavalry on both sides, until the LAST second... where they quickly reformed, and bombed down one flank.

So sadly until movement is improved like this (perhaps through more magic movement options, or stricter march... like can march 4x movement, but CANNOT come within 24 inches of an enemy say? So, it is JUST for back field manouvering...) we cannot see honest to goodness tactics appearing. A shame, but its a board game, they do what they can.

I want to feel challenged in every match, so if I lose, I can shake my opponents (slightly mouldy smelling) hand... maybe with some tongs... and chat about how fun it was. If I win, i can lean back and let out a sigh of pleasure, it was hard fought! While I agree fear isn't so good, and maybe our core should be 2 points or so cheaper, I'll live, as they don't seem THAT expensive anyway.

Sorry for the incredibly long post... more winded than i first planned...

 

[nicklegit]

im pretty stoked on vampire counts, i started to purchase my army a few months back. I read the rules and since i really havent played them i cant be too angry. In fact im not at all. I did play a just a hand full of games, and not once did i use the summon powers, or anything really cheesy and I still won. I cant wait to play bigger games once my army is fully painted.

 

[Vlad Von Carstien]

yep sure a couple of hits hurts and I do agree getting raped by ogre kingomes last week was a little embarrasing but like allot of the people VC's are my only army and I will carry on playing.
But I think there will be some big changes to our lists our book is still good maybe we will take the more killy rout with our lords and heroes rather than the magic overwhelm.