VCs are now unstable.

[bahamutzer0]

im pretty stoked on vampire counts, i started to purchase my army a few months back. I read the rules and since i really havent played them i cant be too angry. In fact im not at all. I did play a just a hand full of games, and not once did i use the summon powers, or anything really cheesy and I still won. I cant wait to play bigger games once my army is fully painted.

Its great to hear that people are still enjoying VC, it seems a lot of people are considering switching armies and giving up on them. I for one am not one of those people, I plan on going halfsies with a friend on the HE vs Skaven battle coming out, but no way am I giving up on VC. There are a lot of people crying brutally about the new rules and not enough people trying to be positive and find new ways to win or just have fun. We got what, like 4+ years till we get a new army book, till then we just gotta deal with the hand we've been dealt and move forward.

and not once did i use the summon powers, or anything really cheesy

You consider the summoning cheesy? its built into the army, its there for a reason, I can't think of any game I or another VC player I've seen hasn't used IoN, RD or SUH.

 

[artisturn]

perception is everything, if we keep saying that we are nerfed then this negative image of our army will start to affect our game play.
I prefer to think that we have been "balanced" which sounds more positive which in turn makes the changes sound like the fixes that they are then the punishments we perceive when we are thinking in the nerf mode.

Now will this Dr. Phil thinking win you any games not likely and I am not glossing over the changes it is a bummer to lose our only fast cav with dire wolves now being war beast.

And what is with all this wailing what are we a bunch of banshees no We are Vampires and as VC Generals We need to show the rest of the armies that this old dog CAN learn new tricks.

 

[Isfimbur]

I was actually about to quit my VC... BEFORE 8th. I love the models and all that. But I thought that the army was quite bland and boring to play, all in all. Thank the gods for this edition! The vamps are so much more likable being this editions "under dog" if you will. Now I have a reason to pick among meny diffrent lores. Magic type vampires that one die IoN spam isn't the given tactic anymore. Now I have to KILL someone to win the game. Last ed I just had to "not die" and the enemy would run across the field screaming like little children. The auto-break affect we had on some armies was to good. More often then not my massive skeleton regiments would auto-break and kill special units without costing me any points in the end. Do to surviving the match and catching a handfull of banners. :zombie:

This time around I look forward to actually do some fightning!

 

[coeur]

Autobreak was an utterly broken mechanic imho. I mean, imagine an elite cavalry charges into zombies... they kill 4, and take no wounds in return. The characters are meant to be now "considering" in a morale sense, their situation. I don't think at any point would "oh my God! We have LOST this combat." Would cross their minds.

"Captain, don't you see? They have three ranks, a banner, and outnumber us! WE ARE LOST!"
"But we're unharmed... and just killed a bunch of them... they can barely even hurt us..."
"THE RANKS CAPTAIN!!! THINK OF THE RANK BONUS!"
"Well fine, but I think we should remain in combat."
"But they're scary! I'm going home!!!" *flees*

-Wtf-

And then despite being highly disciplined and trained warriors they would not even take a leadership test but would instead run away screaming. These are men who regularly fight demons, massive green orks, ratmen covered in poison, and all sorts of ridiculous stuff!

At least now it kind of makes sense. They're unerving, so people shiver, miss blows, wince, maybe close their eyes as they swing (lol), and thus find it harder to hit them.

It makes sense. I played "a little" fantasy in 7th, and to me, and almost everyone in our GW shop, vampire counts was pretty much a silly army. We'd play against them, but it would be a stupid game. Where elite troops would flee for no discernable reason, and the opponent would go on about "technicalities" for hours. Thankfully our shop always says run "in the spirit of the rules." Rather than argumentative wording.

Such as the Black coach "flying" units can march, chariots can't. Argument. Frankly, marching is a movement that is carried out on foot to beats of music. A tempo is kept to ensure every infantry member is in time, and keeps in time. A creature that has flight, cannot physically march. So our shop managers say it's quite obvious that the rules for flight mean "is same effect as marching." Rather than "flight IS marching." As such a black coach which can fly, moves at its new movement rate, and still has impact hits. (I went in and asked them today, since someone was claiming in a forum here that a flying coach must lose impact hits,

 

[abhorash_chile]

I'm a undead player since 4th edition, and crumbling was even worse back on those days. Is you lost a combat and didn't passed the breack test, the entire unit was destroyed (only the skeletons crumbled in the way we know).
So, i'm not complaining about the crumbling. My concern now is that we have 9 points goblins as core, because fear now is in the most circunstances useless. For zombies and skellies don't offer any kind of protection, because WS1 still hits with 4+ to them. Sure, we strikes with a 3+, but with S3 or 2, we aren't going to kill anyone. Add the effect of the battle standard and fear is now just an adornment.
I hoped for a cost reduction in the faqs (and hoped for a more deep changes in several books), but nothing. The new game is about kill people, and our cores don't do that very well.
If only GG was core... or skellis can have GW... I remembered the days when they could and the zombies too!
I'm not quitting the undeads (not vampires, nor khemri), but in tournaments I think i'm going to use much more often the empire gunline with the stupid T10 steam tank.

 

[coeur]

Guttingly I am swill waiting on my VC army book. Three working days, hello GW!? So I dont know the points. if Zombies ARE 9 points, I think i will be as upset as others here .

Especially since I have effectively bid on 197 zombies on ebay (in different lots ofc, and i doubt il win them all.)

Still, crumble aside, I guess we also pay for unbreakable, and the fact that we see terror only as fear. (Does this work like that for undead? or since we're "unbreakable" does terror have 0 effect on us?) Like immune to it?

 

[Kalandros]

Undead are Immune to Psychology, Unbreakable and Unstable - so yes we pay for all that but its still overpriced for the poor stats we have.
Btw, remove 5 from what you were thinking for zombies.

 

[coeur]

Ah, that's not so bad then... still pretty bad. But not crushing.

I intend to make an army with either 120 or 160 zombies, in blocks of 40. Imitating to a small degree Sukorov's tactics.

Basically lined up as so:

---------- / ---------
Gap
---------- / ---------

Im hoping the huge frontal size can actually anchor their entire front battle line down... bog it down entirely. Then even with 160 zombies out, i will STILL have like 1300 points to spend on flanking units alone.

If I use 120, then there will only be one unit of 40 at the back, acting as reserves to rush in and bog down their line, if (when) one of my zombie blocks falls apart.

Or if their line is big. Then I can use Ghouls / GG / Vamps / Varg's / BC... basically everyting, entirely as flanking units. Sure they'll be steadfast... but even with horrid stats, i reckon zombies can bog them down for say 2 turns (more if fear tests fail), allowing time to flank. And instead of necro'ing units up (which will die of CR anyway), I'll simply raise new sqads next to the reserve one, filling the gaps when the front line zombies die. A risky plan, but it fits my fluffy "megalomaniac vampire" lord. He wants to rule the world you see, it's awfully cute.

(Middle) --------------
-------------/-------------/-------------

 

[Xacatecas]

Love the Idea but would hate to keep having to get the army out of my case

 

[coeur]

Well benefit of the mighty ebay is that they are THANK God. Painted. Just won 53 painted ones today, £30. Not bad.

As for getting them out of my case, i think i might carry them seperately in a box pre-bluetacked onto the movement tray in groups of 40. No way im arranging them one by one every game.

If any limbs fall off the zombies in the box? Well, it's character isn't it?

 

[fades]

I played a few games couple of days ago, versus Skaven, Chaos (khorn), Chaos (Tzeetz?), Dwarfs and Dark Elves.
We still rock!
Even though, Zombies are not used anymore (by me) since i think they are not worth their points. And shooting from cannons are insane atm. So always wear The Flag of Blood Keep on anything you want to survive more than 2 rounds of shooting.
Now that is out of the way, it is now so easy to make a combat lord and still have a insane magicphase with lot of action. Power Stones are even better than before, and black periapt combined you will have 3 dices extra for the next turn. A lvl 1 Wizard can cast up to 6 dices, and with the forbiden Lore you can choose what you like the most, and throw it as if there is no tomorrow. Vs Skaven i blew up one of my lvl 1 Vampires after throwing Final Transumtion (From lore of Metal) and killed their general in return who failed hes wardsave, and 12 other models in a unit of 50 models. Forced Leadership tests on units close to the suffering one. Great fun!
8th Edition is what i like to call the surf edition, there is no boring turns, since you can messure everywhere you like, and plan your turn while your opponement are playing he's. Like riding a wave :|

But I have told my friends that I will make a houserule for the Black Coach due to the soacking of power dices are to good. My black Coach had Etheral after the 3rd round of magic, going back to only 2 dices soacked, and one extra die for every enemy wizard (or friendly in my magic phase) 6" away from the coach.

We can build a Combat Lord and still throw magic! The first game i build myself a Mage Lord and he blew himself up, after rolling a 3 on the miscast chart, and I think it was on a +4 the wizard survives some dimentional hole somewhere, no saves of any kind allowed. Ofcourse he died :lol:

Ghouls in Horde, 40 attacks at max with poisnouss attack (10 wide ofc). Summon Undead Horde are more used now than Invocation of Nehek. We still have the possibility to give them reroll to hit and ASF, easier to cast now since you can add your wizard lvl to your dice, and throw as many dices you feel comfortable with.

Even though some people think we are unstable, we still rock in the magicphases as we have all the spells from a lore to only 135 points. We actualy have to kill or run people outside the table to gain victorypoints for the enemy models. And there are some bonuses from General Slayed, Banners and even Champions killing Heroes and Lords.

The only problem I have is Wraiths now, since magic is easier to cast and spell defences is not what it used to be, they would probably die to fast from someone who knows their potential treath with Terror and 3 attacks, str 5 hits.

Besides from that I think we have the potential to make a bloody carnage on the battlefield! I enjoy my VC more now due to the combination of units instead of Summon Ghouls and 3x10 Ghouls deployed. I feel more satisfied when telling my opponement: "42 Ghouls Hordestyle with Ghast" And see the big block ready to give hell.

Put your whining aside, play as you feel is most entertaining (Either is winning, exciting combats, or go mental in magicphases). And you will feel the joy for Warhammer and Vampire Counts once again!
Enjoy!

 

[coeur]

Khorn and Tzeetz.

Corn and tits.

Boobs. Heh heh...


P.s. Khorne, Tzeentch, Slaanesh, Nurgle.

Summon undead horde looks great, but its a shame that necromancers can't access it. You'd think it would be right up their alley. Still, they can sit around IoNing, i guess.

I can't help but think tossing loads of big spells around will be risky. I wouldnt mind if I were any other race (bar tomb kings) but sheesh, big risk if our lord pops it in a dimensional wormhole. Appears on Holy Terra or something in front of some Imp.guard...

I like the new edition so far, less faffing about with light cavalry and free reforms, less ridiculous "omg teh mathematics scare me, flee!" (in combat rez). Steadfast is a great rule... who the hell expects to see a block ten ranks deep leg it in terror for losing five people?

Magic is terrifying, but hell, this is multi cosmic power here. - I like that my wizards close their eyes when they cast nowadays. And everyone in the bunker leans back in sudden fear.

 

[Count Darvaleth]

Thank the gods for this edition!

You're welcome.

On topic, really if your character/Coach/Varghulf is put in a position where it's gonna crumble, it's your fault. I just used a Varghulf against 5 Maurader Horsemen; I used VHDM and all was fine. He killed 4, then Thunder-stomped the last one. Charge against what you know you're gonna beat or not get utterly trashed by. The +1 CR for charging is CRUCIAL for VC, and VHDM does the job perfectly.

 

[fades]

My tzeetz, my tzeetz, my tzeetz are okay!

Necro's are cheaper now, since they can throw VHDM with 6 dices when its most needed. Who cares if you blow one up.
And I dont really look at the IoN spam any longer, I belive this edition is more about throwing those "Kill everything" around you magic, before heading into the fight with all the buffs spells ready to give hell. Yes, magic is still important for us, but shooting is effective vs us now. So we actualy have to spend our spells on targets that can shoot us to, which we are not used to.

My serial are named Khorn, anyone seen it?

 

[Count Darvaleth]

My serial are named Khorn, anyone seen it?

Khornflakes, actually, and that has been done before, a guy on Heresy has that username and he's AWESOME.

On topic, we now need to focus our magic; sure taking a heavy-offence lore is tempting, but we need to focus our efforts on a few simple buffs, along with VHDM and IoN.

 

[Bravo_10]

I would agree with Count Darvalef on that one. Plus, with the new magic rules IoN will essentially be cast on a 3+. That gives us a 33% chance of failure when using one power die. I think VC will still be a dominant magic army because everybody has a couple of other wizard heroes like vamps and necromancers to finish the job if somebody bungles a casting roll. There is also no chance of miscasting when rolling only one die.

However, random power dice generation really hurts, as anybody can be thwarted with simple bad luck. Plus, we now have to use power dice to cast bound spells, so no more free VHDM from the Book of Arkhan.

 

[Annie]

I am SO confused. I have just sat and read through all of this.

WTF is different?

I wasn't even aware we got any save from the CBR crumbling before, oops! So for me it's entirely the same no?

And do we still crumble when the general dies?

I'm starting to feel like I know sod all!

 

[Strig]

@Annie

Basically, if you didnt take any saves before the change, your not going to notice a change heh. Unstable says that no saves of any kind are allowed (before it was only armor saves that werenty allowed, i think)

Yes we still crumble when the general dies. 8th has a lot of changes with it, but in general I think VC can still win a lot! I have played some 8th ed games poorly and lost, and I know that I could have won if my dice *actually* liked me hehe.

Best of luck to you!

- Strig

 

[PapaNasty]

I like how one of the previous posters referred to the changes as just "balancing" VCs.

As I'm sure that GW have thought about the changes, and will add errata etc if needed to further balance VCs. As with any changes to a game, people tend to either focus on just the positive, or just the negative changes. I think a lot of posters in this thread are doing just that.


The changes have made VCs a little weaker, but mostly, they have just made the play style a little different. I'm sure that within a month or two, once everyone is a little more used to the changes and have adjusted their lists accordingly, that they'll loving the play style even more, and finding that they are still competitive (Maybe not quite as competitive as previously, but from what I gather VCs were a bit overpowered previously).



I think there's a lot of positive changes as well for VCs in the new rules to compliment the nerfs, particularly some of the rules which essentially buff larger units

 

[Forge]

The new ruling came into play earlier for me where i actually cared, my skeleton unit was wittling down to a few models and i had 3 characters in the unit unstable punched in and instead of having to use the VC rule which states that wounds must be allocated to the same model first rather I got to use the new nifty unstable rule which allowed me to spread my wounds evenly among my 3 characters, n one of them died and i proceeded to spank on my opponents general and great sword unit until they ran in the next phase and i caught and killed them. needless to say i like the new unstable rules much easier on my multiple character blocks which are sooooo much more apparent in this edition.

 

[TobinRoss89]

The new ruling came into play earlier for me where i actually cared, my skeleton unit was wittling down to a few models and i had 3 characters in the unit unstable punched in and instead of having to use the VC rule which states that wounds must be allocated to the same model first rather I got to use the new nifty unstable rule which allowed me to spread my wounds evenly among my 3 characters, n one of them died and i proceeded to spank on my opponents general and great sword unit until they ran in the next phase and i caught and killed them. needless to say i like the new unstable rules much easier on my multiple character blocks which are sooooo much more apparent in this edition.

Never thought of it that way, Since models with the vampire rule dont have to take crumble from the general being killed it makes units like that slightly more survivable I guess.

 

[Wildvampire1985]

I disagree with all the banter.

Save the surrender speak and failure mongering for the Dwarven forums.

A unit of 100 skeletons in stalwart formations flanked by a couple of Mob Grave guard units of 30+ with great weapons will be enough to make even a Warriors of Chaos player shiver.

13 points for a strength 6 toughness 5 model? You won't find that in a wood elf list. Oh, and bring your dryads, I'll fry em up nice and crispy when they lose their ward save to the banner of hellfire.

 

[Ohris]

I just used a Varghulf against 5 Maurader Horsemen; I used VHDM and all was fine. He killed 4, then Thunder-stomped the last one.

Just a note, you cannot thunderstomp cavalry. You can only thunderstomp infantry.

Its kind of interesting to read this post from the beginning. Many people are shocked and thinking of changing armies becouse of 8th edition changes but my opinion atleast is that Vampires are still quite strong. Not as strong as before but still they are an army that wins tournaments (at least they have won where I am playing).

One sad thing about them seems to be that you NEED graveguard to succeed... I never play cavalry... its just so weak and/or easy to loose.

 

[The Dead of Night]

Well this thread is several months old, I'm sure most people's opinions have evolved since then, it's a bit rude to come along and say you disagree with all the banter when you have 5 months more information than the other posters.

That being said, it is interesting to see. I think VC are obviously weaker now than they were in 7th, but they were probably the number two or three army then. The main thing that has changed for VC is that we are more restricted in what we take in order to be competitive and of course the basic outnumber and auto break tactic is gone..

 

[CommisarFrank]

It's amazing how Blood Knights can become incredibly useless with a bad dice roll.