Wall-o-Wraith and Spears - how to make Skeletons a fighting unit in 3 easy steps!

[rothgar13]

5/3 the troops is a negligible difference in maneuverability? Not when the base number is 35-40, it isn't. That's a pretty big block.

And as I said in my edit, it's a squared exponential. That means while you do have diminishing returns at higher penalties, you get increasing returns until you hit the top of the bell curve (of course, in the case of Ld tests, it does flatline at the end because of Insane Courage). Either way, you ideally want to have people testing in the Ld 4-5 range, where the chances for success are very slim.

Last but not least, I'm preparing for an opponent to counter this strategy by bringing several characters with magic weapons in different units, in which case it's very likely that one Wraith will die and one of your Core troopers will be forced to step up and be exposed to attacks from enemy rank-and-file. This is exactly when the champion comes in, which helps cap enemy CR from wounds at +3, and also makes that difference in CR generated by your attacks that much more valuable, because it could be the difference.

 

[TobiasRathein]

Rothgar is entirely correct in all of his points. If one of us needs to lay out the measurements of unit sizes in regards to maneuverability and explain the math for you, we will.

 

[rothgar13]

I think the biggest sticking point here is the impact of the champion. I think that having one more guy you have to allocate attacks against before you can start hacking away at the unit (a guy that can be raised to do it again, to boot) is a big deal, because once a couple of Wraiths are dead and enemy rank-and-file can tee off on the unit, that unit is going to go down, and I've already proven in another thread that Zombies crumble away A LOT faster than Skeletons, so those extra guys aren't going to mean much of anything.

 

[TobiasRathein]

I think the biggest sticking point here is the impact of the champion. I think that having one more guy you have to allocate attacks against before you can start hacking away at the unit (a guy that can be raised to do it again, to boot) is a big deal, because once a couple of Wraiths are dead and enemy rank-and-file can tee off on the unit, that unit is going to go down, and I've already proven in another thread that Zombies crumble away A LOT faster than Skeletons, so those extra guys aren't going to mean much of anything.

Zombies are completely worthless... unless they are fighting Dwarf Slayers.

It's apparent some people don't understand the impact the champion can have on this unit and helping to keep it...uhm...alive? Unalive?... In the game, damnit.

 

[LordUnderlord]

5/3 the troops is a negligible difference in maneuverability? Not when the base number is 35-40, it isn't. That's a pretty big block.

Yes it is - it only affects a portion of your movement points (those spent on wheeling).

And as I said in my edit, it's a squared exponential. That means while you do have diminishing returns at higher penalties, you get increasing returns until you hit the top of the bell curve (of course, in the case of Ld tests, it does flatline at the end because of Insane Courage). Either way, you ideally want to have people testing in the Ld 4-5 range, where the chances for success are very slim.

The benefits of CR aren't exponential. You've basically stated as much in your post but your conclusion is all wrong. Also you should note that the range of leadership isn't 2-12, nor is it evenly distributed amongst enemy units. There are "magical" number that you want your enemy to be testing on where investment into increased CR is more cost effective then it would be otherwise. And furthermore there are unstable, stubborn and unbreakable enemies who are effected in a completely different manner.

 

[rothgar13]

Against whom CR is even more important because of Unstable. Therefore, the version that generates more CR is more valuable against them.

 

[LordUnderlord]

Against whom CR is even more important because of Unstable. Therefore, the version that generates more CR is more valuable against them.

No it's not inherently better and anyways I brought up the unstable rule because the effects of CR are linear in regards to it.

 

[Dreadgrass]

Another Benefit of Skellies over zombies in this scenario would be access to cheap banners.

I'm not sure if the wraiths would gain flaming attacks (I don't have the book handy) but even if they didn't the Banner of Eternal flame would make the skellies attacks flaming, and they'll strike before the wraiths, so if they can plink a wound off a regenerating target...

Also, the Screaming Banner could be useful since the front rank has greater than WS2 now and causes Terror.

 

[Kaptain Von]

I may try this. I have the Wraiths, I have the Skeletons with spears, and I have a morbid sense of curiosity.

Alas, I may also have no friends by the time I'm through with it, as the approach seems to depend on actually knowing and accurately implementing rules for things like attack allocation, and I've been told off for that before by the locals (apparently it's unsportsmanlike to build something complicated - go figure). May have to save it for the right crowd.

 

[rothgar13]

That's a very good point. Magic banners do expand utility a lot. Good one.

 

[Azhgore]

hi rothgar, im going to be starting a tale of 4 gamers type thing with my local group vs nurgle demons, lizardmen and tomb kings. do u think the wraith wall will be worth using in this campaign? starting at 500pts working up so itl be a while before they will be worth considering anyway but i was just hoping to get your opinion

 

[datalink7]

Yeah that's what I came in to say. The biggest reason for me to take Skeletons is that you can throw the flaming banner on in there. Now you can deal with regenerators a lot more easily.

 

[Sneglzillas]

I was just thinking of something. Lets say the wraithwall-unit meets another unit with a char with a magical weapon. He kills a wraith in turn one. Your wraith make sure to kill any champ in his unit. Round 2 you challenge with you champ now in the front rank. If he accepts all his models will be forced to attack wraiths and if he declines, well that's one less char to think about. And then raise that champ when possible.

I think ill try this unit in my next game. I've been wanting to try it out since we could take the wraiths/banshees as hero choices. Sounds kinda fun, but not sure how well it would fare in a competitive environment.

Also, i'm gonna have my backup necromancer in that unit, what better place to hide out.

Nice thread by the way.
Cheers

Sneglzillas

 

[theangels77]

Question though, Even if the front rank was ethereal, Could your opponent not just attack the unit and gain CR against the skellies with spears...Im a little confused..

 

[Demian]

Question though, Even if the front rank was ethereal, Could your opponent not just attack the unit and gain CR against the skellies with spears...Im a little confused..

That's the whole point of this setup: he can't!!

Opposing models can only target their enemies (your models) when in Base to Base contact with each other. Since the only models in BtB will be Wraiths, you can effectively deny him any contact with Skeletons.

but wait! if one of your Wraiths die, then the Unit's Champion will step-up and as per the rules of allocating attacks, the Unit's Champion must be targeted SEPARATELY from the rest of the Rank & File models, meaning by the end of the round of combat, only your Champion will die, and receive 1 wound. Then, during your turn, use Invocation of Nehek to resurrect him, thus denying your opponent the opportunity to touch your skeletons. This makes a unit of Skellies a whole lot more dangerous.

 

[MadLarkin]

Something worth mentioning concerning magic wielding characters is a hero will probably kill 1 wraith before his friends get to strike. Your skelly champion steps up, their unit kills him. Then you get to strike back, aim at their hero. You should have decent odds at killing off most hero level characters if they have a magic weapon.

Next phase (if your champion hasn't risen) only 3 models are base to base with your unit, should still be able to win combat

Question though: if I were to include a banshee in this unit that would be in the second rank, can she scream unto the enemy unit?

 

[rothgar13]

I think so. The rules for shooting say that guys in the second rank can shoot as if they were in the first.

 

[forever_alone]

umm.......has anyone noticed, there is no unit called crypt wraiths in VC army book, are you talking about cairn wraiths? :devil2:

 

[rothgar13]

Right. My mistake. Fixing now.

 

[Sception]

So my understanding for skeletons vs. zombies in a wraithwall:

skeletons:
- provide extra attacks, at extra weapon skill, for a couple extra kills
- have a champion to force allocation after a wraith drops
- can bring a magic banner, including flaming

Zombies:
- bring more ranks (cheaper, + better res rate)

Another advantage of zombies:
- work better if you opt to deploy your wraiths somewhere else.

Without the wraiths, those spear skellies are a bit underwhelming for the investment, while zombies are quite functional on their own. If you take multiple zombie units, then you can deploy your wraithwall in any of them you choose, and the wraithless units are still effective as tar pits on their own. You could put a big zombie unit in each flank, and then deploy your wraiths in the one that isn't opposite the enemy's chaos knights.

Likewise, sometimes you want to send your wraiths out to hamper particular enemies on their own (say, sending individual wraiths to tie up hydras or sphinxes), and again the unit left behind is still effective without them, if not in the same role perhaps.

For this reason, I think the zombie option is more versatile than the skeleton option.

 

[Sneglzillas]

I really like the idea of having 2-4 different places to put your wraiths. Cheers Malisteen.

I run both skellies and zombies in my lists. I would definitely go zombies. Easy to raise. And my skellies work better on their own. There's usually a char in my skellie unit anyway, and i would be very hesitant to put that guy in the zombies instead.

 

[aussie]

personaly, the screaming banner looks like more bang for your buck, over flamming banner. Terror from the wraiths what else need to be said.

 

[N1AK]

Any competitive tournament list should include something similar to this if you want to use our nasty weapons. That being said, it's truly a nasty weapon against many of the armies out there. I won't take this against my friends, but you can bet your ass I'll take it to ard boyz.

I wouldn't take a list with this unit to a non-comp tournament. First time you face Daemons you've got a 500pt Skeleton unit where the first rank doesn't have armour but has great weapons. Most other armies will find it harder to deal with but overall I don't think it's a good idea.

 

[rothgar13]

It's still a unit that forces every Bloodletter to allocate, and since they're 25mm infantry, they get less shots at it. Still, yeah, Daemons are a whale of a matchup.

 

[Vampire Count]

If you're facing Daemons the Wraiths can separate from the unit and, um... yeah. Float around I guess. :ghost: