It was after spending some time on Lustria Online and learning about the Oldblood/Scarvet Cowboy builds that gave me the impetus to try out the Hellsteed solo Vamp builds.
What do you think Official 50% Lords/Heroes means to the game?
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It was after spending some time on Lustria Online and learning about the Oldblood/Scarvet Cowboy builds that gave me the impetus to try out the Hellsteed solo Vamp builds.
At the moment my favourite LM build is this: Skink Chief: Ripperdactyl, Spear, Dragonhelm, Light Armour, Shield, Egg of Quango... wrecks some serious face.
Yeah, are the books of nagash one item or nine? what happens when they're subject to effects that destroy magic items?
Also, the army-book specific magic items state that they are available to characters in "vampire counts armies" or "tomb kings armies". Do characters in "Undead Legions armies" count? At the moment, the most strict, and frankly most natural, reading is no, which would mean undead legions characters could only take items from the core rulebooks (yes they have all options in their unit entries, but the unit entries don't specifically grant access to faction specific items). This does not seem to be the intent, and really needs FAQ/Errata.
Similarly, are characters on chariots in undead legions armies allowed to join units of skeleton chariots? The special rule normally allowing such is on the chariot unit itself, but it only allows characters on a chariot "in a tomb kings army" to do so, which would mean the rule wouldn't work in an 'undead legions' army. This also seems not to be the intent, and again really warrants FAQ/Errata.
Overall, I'm extremely disappointed with the one line Nagash FAQ.
Archamedius
Grave Guard
Pirate Robot Ninja of Death
Vampire Thrall
Double Blenders... Double GUOs.... Double DPs.... Most armies can double their good lord build and this will hopefully cancel each other out. However this would be a sad thing for Warhammer since having two of the same thing doesn't really improve an army's tactics. I hope that more dynamic armies will emerge.
BTW. I never got why people want double Slaans... with the Winds of Magic capping at 12 dice and few reliable ways to generate power dice I don't see them being able to cast enough spells for it to be cost-effective.
BTW. I never got why people want double Slaans... with the Winds of Magic capping at 12 dice and few reliable ways to generate power dice I don't see them being able to cast enough spells for it to be cost-effective.
PureSphinx
Ghoul
2 SGKs on T-bats. 2 T-bats in rare. A ton of banshees. And some skelomen to put the banshees in. Why, Nagash, why?
Seriously though, steadfast, hordes, fortutude, bunkers, buses, and all that jazz is more important than nine characters who will lose combats solely to rank bonus and banners. I like it because of the aforementioned putting 30 or so percent into lords. I also like that I can take two or three lords and forgo heroes altogether depending on my list.
One more thing that is very nice about it: affordability. Nobody wants to spend two or three hundred dollars at once to get an army together. I just bought a Daemon Prince (don't hate, my store had no heralds) and a batallion, and I can field a 1300 point list with my lord costing 535 points because of these rules. Now it basically opens players up to MSU lists at first, so they don't have to drop twice as much money at once to get a playable army.
Seriously though, steadfast, hordes, fortutude, bunkers, buses, and all that jazz is more important than nine characters who will lose combats solely to rank bonus and banners. I like it because of the aforementioned putting 30 or so percent into lords. I also like that I can take two or three lords and forgo heroes altogether depending on my list.
One more thing that is very nice about it: affordability. Nobody wants to spend two or three hundred dollars at once to get an army together. I just bought a Daemon Prince (don't hate, my store had no heralds) and a batallion, and I can field a 1300 point list with my lord costing 535 points because of these rules. Now it basically opens players up to MSU lists at first, so they don't have to drop twice as much money at once to get a playable army.
jim_of_the_dead
Zombie
hey sorry to come in on the end of this and go off on a tangent but is there a thread discussing the rest of the FAQ and in particular the bit about ALL races being able to use Lore of Undeath?! Just wondering what the consensus is here and if Undead players are disgruntled & what it will do to the game etc etc
I'm very much in the same boat as @Yorga - always trying to squeeze a little more out of my Vamp Lord/Master Necro, so I agree, but at the same time, I'm not sure I agree that "it's not that big of a change"; like @Demian said, it means we no longer have to compromise on our Lord and can give him/her
PureSphinx
Ghoul
Fluff wise I think it's pretty fitting, what with it being the End Times. It just goes to show how powerful Nagash really is. You can go on about Teclis and Kroak and whoever else, but when SPOILER ---- Teclis himself believes that Nagash is the only one who can defeat the Chaos Gods, ---- END SPOILER we all know who is the real best of the best.
In game context it basically becomes a sort of Raise Dead for other armies, however they don't benefit from Invocation like we do, so it's not nearly as useful. If I were to take a hero level sorceress in my DE army and give her LoU, I wouldn't even bother giving her a second level. I'd stick her in some warlocks or something and have her walk/ride around making screens for my important units. Like I said though, it isn't as useful as other lores.
I'm very much in the same boat as @Yorga - always trying to squeeze a little more out of my Vamp Lord/Master Necro, so I agree, but at the same time, I'm not sure I agree that "it's not that big of a change"; like @Demian said, it means we no longer have to compromise on our Lord and can give him/her
My vampire lord's going to be riding a zombie dragon that's making love to an abyssal terror ON TOP of a Coven throne which has crashed into a corpse cart.
Your mind disturbs me.. But I think that was how they actually brought back Nagash.!
Well the Nine Books of Nagash count as a single Arcane Item (sad face). Still don't know how should we play it, like, the most balanced way to play that item.
Remember that Undead Legions is a combination of both VC and TK, plus some other goodies (like Mortarchs). So, everything that a VC character can play (options and army-specific items alike) can be played in a UL army (only to their respective characters, ie: Nightshroud can't be equiped to a TK).
Those marked by VC can play as they always did. Same for all marked as TK.
Those UL-only (Mortarchs, Nagash) would be restricted to Core Rulebook items only... if they could equip generic items.
Yesh! about the Chariots, only TK Characters can join a Unit of Chariots. VC on a Coven Throne / Corpse Carts cannot join them, because the only ruling allowing you to join other chariots is "And the Tomb Kings rode to war..." or something like that, and specifically states TK.
To summarize:
When they say Undead, they mean all Undead.
When they say an Undead Legions force, they mean the combination of TK and VC, plus UL-only stuff.
When they say a VC army, it means VC-only, even tough UL can combine (but not mix) the two armies
did that make sense? haha
Except, technically, no. Because the entry specifically states "In a Tomb Kings army", which is distinct from a UL army. So in an UL army, TK characters cannot actually join TK chariots RAW. Which is what @Malisteen was referring to.
It doesnt specify tomb kings. If it did there would be no problem. If specifies any character in a tomb kings army that has a chariot. An undead legions army is not a tomb kings army, so a tomb king in an undead legions army is not in a tomb kings army, so the rule does not allow him to join. The exact same wording applies to the faction items. The undead legions rules do not clearly and explicitly grant access, they say you have the options of the unit, but that option is 50/100 points of magic items, not 50/100 points of magic items from particular sources. The sources themselves state who has access, which again is not this or that unit, its any unit in this or that army.
what you are advocating is a statement that ul units count as being in an army of their source book, so undead legions units from the tomb kings book count as being in a tomb kings army, and ul units from the vc book count as being in a vc army. This is a good and sensible ruling that really deserves to be enshrined in official errata or faq, because the undead legion rules do not currently specify that, and as such neither is actually the case atm.
Well... yeah, poor wording prevents me from making a better case as to why we can choose from some or the other army-specific options.
The only valid point I can make is the part where it reads: "...use the unit profiles, points costs, equipment, options and special rules found in either VC or TK" thus stating that we must use their equipment and options. Such options include whatever they can normally field (because... Zombie Dragons are not mentioned in the UL roster, but can surely be taken by a Vampire Lord as a mount). Where it doesn't specify that you can take items/options that specifically require you to be from a VC or TK exclusive army, it also doesn't restrict you from doing so (provided that you follow all the specific rules from that particular "normal" army).
Also, speaking of weird things unnoticed:
Did you know that successfully casting the Scrying Pool bound spell would allow you to re-roll subsequent To Wound rolls caused by non-combat attacks, such as magic missiles and direct damage? It's weird, but it never says "caused in close combat attacks", just "for the remainder of the turn"
The only valid point I can make is the part where it reads: "...use the unit profiles, points costs, equipment, options and special rules found in either VC or TK" thus stating that we must use their equipment and options. Such options include whatever they can normally field (because... Zombie Dragons are not mentioned in the UL roster, but can surely be taken by a Vampire Lord as a mount). Where it doesn't specify that you can take items/options that specifically require you to be from a VC or TK exclusive army, it also doesn't restrict you from doing so (provided that you follow all the specific rules from that particular "normal" army).
- Can an Empire wizard summon a Necromancer wearing a Nightshroud? (he should... weird, but he should)
Also, speaking of weird things unnoticed:
Did you know that successfully casting the Scrying Pool bound spell would allow you to re-roll subsequent To Wound rolls caused by non-combat attacks, such as magic missiles and direct damage? It's weird, but it never says "caused in close combat attacks", just "for the remainder of the turn"
Looks like the Sword of Anti-heroes might get a big boost in popularity. Also that "every character within 12" LoBeast spell.
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Also, Blood Knights just became sad. Units of Baby Blenders on Hellsteeds sound tasty enough? Flying Blood Knights ftw.
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Also, Blood Knights just became sad. Units of Baby Blenders on Hellsteeds sound tasty enough? Flying Blood Knights ftw.
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Pirate Robot Ninja of Death
Vampire Thrall
"Tomb Kings Army" is not defined anywhere in the book or the BRB. So it could just as well mean an army that uses models from the Tomb Kings book as it could a model that is exclusively governed by the TK book.
Which might sound pedantic, but it's really not. Combined-book lists are a new thing. There is no precedent for them in WHFB. The books were not written to anticipate them. So there's really nothing to say that an Undead Legions army isn't BOTH a "Tomb Kings Army" and a "Vampire Counts Army," and without an FAQ on the matter (official or not) there's no saying which is which.
That is an interesting and potentially valid interpretation, Pirate, bt if that is the correct one then it again needs to be stated as such by FAQ or Errata. Note that that interpretation would allow vampires on coven thrones to join skeleton chariot units in undead legions armies. Even more extreme, it would allow lich priests with black pariapts or ghoul kings with the golden death mask. I would very much like that to be the case, but somehow I doubt that's what was intended.
Regardless, it is not at all clear, and needs errata, but the most natural reading, as far as I can tell, is that an UL army is neither a VC army nor a TK army, but rather it's own army which simply has access to units from those books. Which is very different from what I imagine to be the intent of the designers, which would be more like what Demian was advocating.
Regardless, it is not at all clear, and needs errata, but the most natural reading, as far as I can tell, is that an UL army is neither a VC army nor a TK army, but rather it's own army which simply has access to units from those books. Which is very different from what I imagine to be the intent of the designers, which would be more like what Demian was advocating.
The most common sense interpretation of the rule and the one that makes sense when reading the undead legion army rules is all the army special rules are replaced with the undead legion special rules while the unit specific rules use the rules in their origin rules in the army books as intended. This is what the undead legion book says, it's why it doesn't reverse errata the tomb kings or vampire counts army special rules for those armies, and it's why characters can use magic items from the book they are out of, went tomb kings and princess can join their chariot units etc.
In fact, the army special rule stating all nehekara undead and undead now just count as undead and all instances of it mentioned count as undead is important, as that is the one place the undead legion does alter unit specific rules so they work on units from the other book. This is why my will be done works on grave guard etc.
When you read the undead legions rules and pay attention to it's formatting and how it references itself and the other two army books, it's really not confusing.
In fact, the army special rule stating all nehekara undead and undead now just count as undead and all instances of it mentioned count as undead is important, as that is the one place the undead legion does alter unit specific rules so they work on units from the other book. This is why my will be done works on grave guard etc.
When you read the undead legions rules and pay attention to it's formatting and how it references itself and the other two army books, it's really not confusing.
I don't think the problem is really so much whether it's confusing, but that some players/groups/tournaments are sticklers for RAW, ignoring sense; while others look for even the slightest loophole to abuse (the former no doubt fuelled by the latter).
For what it's worth, I agree with you that that is likely the intent, but applying logical reasoning when dealing with the aforementioned people just isn't going to work in a lot of cases.
For what it's worth, I agree with you that that is likely the intent, but applying logical reasoning when dealing with the aforementioned people just isn't going to work in a lot of cases.