What Unit changes would you like to see in a new Vampire Counts army book?

[Uziel]

Skeletons should be playing violins! that would be soooo cool. As for what Uziel said about small point games with necros, you have to be like 750 plus to take them, because of the rule that a Vampire HAS to be your general. You can't not have one, and this takes up 100 points with out upgrades, and since you don't take Vamps without upgrades, there isn't very much room for a necromancer (Who needs a shiny upgrade as well). I think they should fix the "Must have a vampire rule" So that you can take a necromancer in a 500 point match. That way you would have 70 points to spend on equipment compared to the vampires 15 points to spend.

My mistake. It has been so long since I played VC now that I actually forgot about having to have a Vampire. My mistake. Then yes, I do see the problem, although I have never played games of less than 1000 pts to be honest, so it has never come up.

 

[Baslakor]

I find it interesting that people do not want to see a more powerful VC list, but only want to see all of the units being useful.

Biggest thing for me would be zombies. I really love these guys, but yeah, they're useless. 1 point cheaper and a little tougher would be nice. Also, Bat Swarms. Never used them, but they seem interesting if there cost would be less.

And Last, Bloodlines. Just because they're fun.

Other than that, not much to complain.

 

[Uziel]

I find it interesting that people do not want to see a more powerful VC list, but only want to see all of the units being useful.

I'd personally like to see some of the armys power transferred from the characters, to the units, which I think would make Vampire Counts both more playable and by extension more powerful in 8 ed. I think reintroducing Bloodlines is the best way to go about fixing this.
Also, if the Tomb Kings and Orcs and Goblins (and I assume Ogre Kingdoms as well) books are something to go by, there will be a lot fewer army specific magic items now, with a lot more common ones from the rulebook. The way it is now, VCs have way to many options to choose from on their characters (because of the old army book combined with the host of new common magic items as well as all sorts of "bloodline" power combinations).

I really hope they reintroduce the Bloodlines, and make each of them very distinct, both as characters go, as well as the armies themselves. I'd like to see them all very dangerous intheir own way, but also being so one dimensional that they do all have their own weaknesses as well.

 

[Uziel]

Would the Vanguard special rule be too usefull on Bat Swarms? Any thoughts? They seem next to useless now, and I quite like the idea that when a VC army approaches their enemies, Bats are sendt ahead to frighten their enemies and do as much damage as possible while the undead host approaches under a cover of darkness...

I still think their costs should be reduced though...

 

[Mioum]

Outside the obvious point drop across the book and all core units counting toward the 25%, here's some idea;

Zombies; I would boost them to S3 (they can be slow, clumsy and soft, but they can tear you apart!), and add a special rule;

The Horde
Zombies shamble foward in battle and just hurl themself on the enemies, without thinking about self-preservation or what the other members of the unit is doing.
To represent the pressure of a mass of bodies trying to reach and grasp the enemies, Zombies ranked 5-wide or more count as being in horde formation, getting an extra rank of support attacks. If in actual horde (10-wide), they then fight with a total of 3 ranks of support attacks.

Dire Wolf; I see wolves being a more sneaky hunter than an in-your-face unit, so I would add the Ambusher as an upgrade for the unit for a small cost (like 2pts per model). Also add the special rule Devastating Charge (this one is only for the nostalgia of the old slavering charge ).

Bat Swarm; I'd be inclined to drop those honestly, maybe still present only as a spell effect or something, but I don't think they should stay as a unit.

Fell Bat; Someone said something similar to Screemer, I'm not familiar with those, but I looked it up and it's seems quite interesting, could definitly spice up this unit and differenciate them from the TK Carrions.

Spirit Host; Like I said in another thread, have them fight like monstrous infantry, getting ranks with 3 models, horde with 6. Drop points to about 45-50pts.

 

[Baslakor]

The Horde
Zombies shamble foward in battle and just hurl themself on the enemies, without thinking about self-preservation or what the other members of the unit is doing.
To represent the pressure of a mass of bodies trying to reach and grasp the enemies, Zombies ranked 5-wide or more count as being in horde formation, getting an extra rank of support attacks. If in actual horde (10-wide), they then fight with a total of 3 ranks of support attacks.

I had this idea for zombies:

Strenght 4.

This is quite high, but when I think about zombies, I always imagine them ripping out arms and legs, digging in somebody's stomach and well, just completly tearing up some poor soul. A S4 is quite high, but it does compensate voor the T2 (which is also very fitting for a zombie).

Always strike last.

No explanation needed I think.

At the end of combat, after casualties have been removed duo CR and if the unit still excists, add X zombies to the regiment, where X is the number of humanoid models the zombies have killed this turn.

Zombies have no defence, low WS and only a T2. This way, numbers is there defence.

And maybe the ability for a Corpse Cart to join the zombies with some interesting rules added.

 

[Uziel]

The Horde
Zombies shamble foward in battle and just hurl themself on the enemies, without thinking about self-preservation or what the other members of the unit is doing.
To represent the pressure of a mass of bodies trying to reach and grasp the enemies, Zombies ranked 5-wide or more count as being in horde formation, getting an extra rank of support attacks. If in actual horde (10-wide), they then fight with a total of 3 ranks of support attacks.

I had this idea for zombies:

Strenght 4.

This is quite high, but when I think about zombies, I always imagine them ripping out arms and legs, digging in somebody's stomach and well, just completly tearing up some poor soul. A S4 is quite high, but it does compensate voor the T2 (which is also very fitting for a zombie).

Always strike last.

No explanation needed I think.

At the end of combat, after casualties have been removed duo CR and if the unit still excists, add X zombies to the regiment, where X is the number of humanoid models the zombies have killed this turn.

Zombies have no defence, low WS and only a T2. This way, numbers is there defence.

And maybe the ability for a Corpse Cart to join the zombies with some interesting rules added.

Interesting take on zombies. quite like the "Horde" rule, alhthoughwith the current zombie stats it would be next to useless. +5 additional Ws 1, I 1, S 2 attacks, is not exactly going to make anyone reconsider attacking them. hehe

S 4 is a bit much though, even though they can do as you describe. but you have to consider that they are already compensating for this sice their unarmed attacks are counting as hand weapons (which is a big difference).

Here is the Zombie type I'd personally like to see:

M 4; Ws 2; Bs 0; S 2; T 3; W 1; I 1; A 1; Ld 2

Troop Type: Infantry

Special rules: Undead

Shambling Horde: The zombies move forwards, crawling, biting, tearing and overwhenming their opponents, not be sheer strenght, but by tenacity and no reard for their own well being. The unit counts as having the Extra Ranks special rule, but they get to count ALL additional ranks behind the first instead.

This effectivly translates into a lot of S2 attacks if it is a large horde, enabling them to actually go toe to toe with more than skavenslaves in the game. With a WS of 2, not failing their Fear test also becomes important for their enemies, as the zombies then hit on 3+... This also allows for more effective unit formation options, allowing yo to make the zombie units just a little bit broader than your enemy, and still get the maximum number of attacks.

Walking Corpses: Killing something that is already dead is not easy, and often requires the head to be removed, or the whole body destroyed. Attacks with a Strength of equal to or less than the Zombie's Toughness (3), must re-roll any successfull roll to wound.

This would make Zombies more of an effective tar-pit, but more importantly, they can actually to some potential damage if they get to stay in the fight for a while. They will not be very good vs. strong opponents though, as they effectivly counters their "toughness".

A'd also like to see a rule which prohibited Vampires from joining a Zombie unit, to prevent them from becoming cheap bunkers for powerful lords. Thats the Skellies job.[/b]

 

[hairyjeff]

All I want is Zombies that are a bugger to get rid of, Skeletons cheap enough to use, decent and distinct Bloodline powers, and Lore of Vampires left alone. It works, don't fudge with it., Oh yes, and new Zombie models. And effective direwolves more often. And about a million other things, of which I expect to get jack.

 

[Baslakor]

Lots of s2 attacks sounds cool, eventually something has to hit!
How about a neverending Frenzy? Their bloodlust and hunger must be hard to control, even for the most powerful Necromancer!

Also, zombies do not just use their hands, they use whatever they can find and some of that stuff is actually useful!

Hehe, s4 frenzied zombies, even if their T would be 1, it would be awesome!

 

[Uziel]

All I want is Zombies that are a bugger to get rid of, Skeletons cheap enough to use, decent and distinct Bloodline powers, and Lore of Vampires left alone. It works, don't fudge with it., Oh yes, and new Zombie models. And effective direwolves more often. And about a million other things, of which I expect to get jack.

I think we are on the same page there hairyjeff. I agree that they should leave the Lore of Vampire spells alone, or at least keep the same spells etc. They could introduce some different casting valuest etc to some of the spells though. Especially love how the Necromancers work, and I'd like to see (assuming that they return the Bloodlines in the first place) Necterarchs getting the same ability, in addition to their other spells.

Zombies could be made much more fun with the Corpse Cart changed. It cold be coold if they changed the corspse cart spell to a Raise Zombie spell, with either a very limited range, or it only being able to summon zombies around itself etc.

 

[SoulSeeker]

Zombies could be made more resilient to reflect their undead nature. As soon as you cut them down, they get up again, or just keep attacking from the ground. This would be easy to do by giving them a ward save of 5 or 6. Possibly 5 would be too generous, one third on average of casualties would immediately re-animate. This could eaasily be implemented in the rules by giving them regeneration (5 or 6).

As for them attacking, I think one extra rank of attacks would be fine, allowing the whole unit to strike would be a bit much.

My main hope would be some kind of change to make the skeletons kings again. I would prefer to have ghouls as support rather than frontline troops. Make them skirmish again, or remove poison, or drop their attacks down to 1. I realise that would be unpopular among many players, but they are just too good at the moment.

 

[Uziel]

Zombies could be made more resilient to reflect their undead nature. As soon as you cut them down, they get up again, or just keep attacking from the ground. This would be easy to do by giving them a ward save of 5 or 6. Possibly 5 would be too generous, one third on average of casualties would immediately re-animate. This could eaasily be implemented in the rules by giving them regeneration (5 or 6).

As for them attacking, I think one extra rank of attacks would be fine, allowing the whole unit to strike would be a bit much.

My main hope would be some kind of change to make the skeletons kings again. I would prefer to have ghouls as support rather than frontline troops. Make them skirmish again, or remove poison, or drop their attacks down to 1. I realise that would be unpopular among many players, but they are just too good at the moment.

The Corpse Cart Granting them Regeneration (6+) would do this pretty well, especially coupled with the Corpse Cart easily being ably to cast Raise Zombies. Don't think a Ward save would fit fluff-wize, and it would in my opinion make them much to resilient vs. units such as mosnters etc, which would crush them beyond all recognition with a successful hit.

One extra rank of zombies would do just about nothing damage-wise to most units. Perhaps letting ALL zombies (onyly those in base contact and those directly behind them though) attack, could be misused somewhat, but I honestly think this would be difficult to do. One thing one could do, was simply to put an initial limitation on how large a zombee unit could be (picturing around 50 models). Even if EVERY model was in contact with a unit of WS 3, S3 Light armour troops, they would only kill 4.63 models; which is not overly powerful in any way, and even a little unlikely to happen.
I do play a little against High Elves, and thrust me when I say that 5 ranks of Sea Guard is no joke either, and zombies would never be able to compare with this because of their low stats (an neither should they).

I absolutly agree that Skeletons should become better/cheaper, and become the main core Unit again. Not sure I agree that remoing Poisoned Attacks and the attacks is the way to go though, as this at least offers some tactical options, and without standards and musicians, I don't think Ghouls are too good. Much to good when measured against Zombies and Skeletons, absolutly, but not in general.

 

[No_Usernames_Here]

Greetings, I'm new to the forums here. It seems like one of the more popular suggestions for zombies is a Regeneration save, but it's also met its fair share of criticism for being unfluffy, as has the "increased Toughness" suggestion, and I agree to some extant on either account. I did some theory/test/amateur designer-hammer with some different, unique rules just to sort of throw in the pot here and see if anything useful can be salvaged of them.

To begin, a note on Unstable: I think that the undead (yes, including TK) should roll break tests for the unstable wounds and should be allowed saves against it.

Zombies

Statline: Same as in the 7th Edition Vampire Counts Army Book, but with a Movement Value reduced by 1 (to 3).

Cost: 3 per model.

Options: None.

Rules: Undead, maybe: Always Strikes Last

The Newly Dead: Same.

Shambling Horde: Same, except change "enemy units fleeing... suffer D6 Strength 2 hits for every file of zombies that was beyond base to base contact with the enemy unit before they fled." and add "At the end of combat, but before combat resolution is calculated, any enemy units engaged with the zombie unit's front take 1 Strength 2 wound for every zombie in the front rank that is not in base to base contact with any enemy model. In addition, units of zombies may make a reform move in the movement phase even if they moved (but not if they are in combat) and never take Leadership tests for combat reforms, but may only move (2d6? didn't really get very far on this bit) models individually in each reform."
Reason for the change: first and foremost, this works on a mechanical level to effectively give the Zombies a dichotomic role and a method of shifting between them, as well as breeding more flavour into them (a slovenly unit that sort of morphs around the enemy with no regard for its own well being to slowly drag the opposition down with them; also, adds this fear aesthetic to the way the unit fights). Their movement creates this feeling of a ball of barely organized flesh that has stragglers slowly moving about in a general direction to create the effect of a ragtag unit. The balance comes from the fact that when operating like this, you have traditional zombie brawn (all that of wet toilet paper), but the bite you gain is a slow one and thus requires support to work.

Steeled By Flesh/Wall of Flesh: Whenever a unit of zombies suffers any wounds, up to 2d6 wounds are resolved as normal and any wounds beyond that are resolved as if the zombie unit had an armour save equal to the number of ranks of 5 or more models in the unit, up to a maximum of 1+. (maybe add something about zombie units with Steadfast ignoring Unstable wounds? Might be OTT, considering the proposed change to the way it works for the army in general).
Reason for this addition: This is the other side of the dichotomy. This is my "secret tarpit weapon." You'll still deal 2 wounds on average against an average core unit per turn, but you won't be wiped out in one round either! So you can actually tarpit! Plus, it gives this sense of the zombies just bunching up and presenting this wall of flesh that bleeds out the momentum of attacks made against it. Again, you guys bring up the "fear" aspect plenty, and this sounds downright terrifying! Too many exclamation marks!

So, there's my idea. Now, I don't pretend to know everything about Warhammer. In fact, everything I know is from reading the army books and the BRB. That's right, I don't actually have an army or experience, but I love making stuff up and playtesting mock battles/crunching numbers/PROBABILITY, hence this long write up, So I don't exactly have a wide view of the "big mechanical picture" of the Warhammer world. Don't get hung up on imbalance or lack of knowledge, this is mostly to spur some conversation. Believe it or not, I actually derive great enjoyment from game design ventures such as this. And I'm probably not going to make an army until some new VC passes because honestly, love the theme but most of the models look like butt. Raw, unfiltered, butt (looking at you, anything bat related. And you, zombies! I said "horrifying," not "goofy").

I was mainly concerned with making the rules fun and unique, but not overly complex or "micromanagy" as well as giving the Zombie unit a little more flexibility on the battlefield. I'm worried mostly about some of the Shambling Horde rules and wording, but it obviously couldn't be based off of rank anymore since ranklessness is the new damage mode.

So whatcha think?

 

[Uziel]

Welcome to the forum

Regarding the zombies, I think we pretty much share the idea of how a Zombie horde should work on the battlefield, although we have proposed different rule mechanics as how to represent them on the battlefield.

If you like playtesting alternate unit rules etc, and have some experience with this, I certainly wouldn't mind some input on my suggestions for new rules for many of the current units, as well as some new ones (for the old Bloodlines). You can find them in the Necrarch's workshop section.