WHFB - 9th Edition

[Woolly.Mammoth]

I've heard the changes will be big but I'm not sure if that is standard new-book hype. The rules are convoluted (as in, I've summarized 90% of the rulebook into three pages) but that's just how the British do things - the wrong way with extreme efficiency. That's not likely to change.

Personally I feel like they bend too many rules to give "character" to races and units. Its fun to make up rules but some things should be held sacred with no opportunity to exploit or bend the rules.

I agree with Blutsauger - no more ASF, just high initiative units. As a replacement, there should be "hatred-initiative", which is hatred that only applies when I is equal or higher.

No more ASL either, just I-0. Initiative damaging debuffs (or positive buffs) would be cool, but we cant go down that road with ASL&ASF everywhere.

Rumor is they will remove M. Probably pre-set based on unit type like 40k. I hope our wolves are still 9".

Chargers should get bonus initiative, or calvary cause impact hits as Dimreapa stated. Receiving a penalty for charging spears is a fun tactical idea but they would need to raise the cost of spears. How about stomps that get resolved as impact hits on the charge? I agree charging needs a bit of a buff, and there are lots of great ideas in this thread.

I personally like the ridiculousness of magic, but there is a few changes I'd like to see:
- you should be able cancel the attempted dispel of your Remains in Play spells (have you ever seen a 5+ Curse of Years?)
- 15+ should be the maximum dice required to remove a remains in play spell, regardless of its cost value.
- re-rolling for winds is nice, but the ability to re-roll cast/dispel dice in any way should be removed.
- adding + to cast should never be more specific than a spell. Dark acolyte is balanced, +1 to all casts in a school is too strong, and +1 to everything is absurd. + to casts should be exclusive to Wizard level, to an absolute maximum of +4.
- I think miscast is okay (but a little too scary for VC). I don't have an opinion either way in regards to general rules, but VC should have protection against erasing your general on turn one and shamefully requesting a "do-over".

All Fire & Stone Throwers should use a template and roll to scatter in any direction. No special re-rolls of scatter/artillery, no scatter directly forward, none of that nonsense. Medieval warmachines would have hit a charging elephant maybe 1 in 10 shots. Warmachines should be a cute "maybe I'll get a lucky hit and devastate a unit" that you take 1 of, not an overpowered way to cause obscene direct damage. There's a name for that its called 40k, and the reason why I prefer WHFB. On top of that, flying creatures should have a 4+ ward save on all warmachines and large targets should be immune to the multiple wounds special rule (only cause 1 per hit). Let's bring the reliable strategy back to the troops and monsters and leave the shooting for 40k.

Let's be realistic - they will never change the rules which promote buying more units. What they don't need to do is take a race and Ward them up to appeal to the overly competitive who use the hobby as a release for their passive aggression. That's not who we want to see on the other end of the table, let them explode faces in Call of Duty and leave tabletop for the friendly competitors. Unfortunately that passive aggression fuels them to spend life savings on lots of Ward-y units in anticipation for the cheese blowout, so all we can do is politely say "no thank you" to that type of player (but we wont, because we're the nice guys).

 

[Skittelz1981]

Loremaster changed to picking spell? hell no! Loremaster is fine as it is. mannfred is super expensive and has no wardsave.... he should know 3 lores to cover that gap in its profile

 

[Mad 'At]

Something I'd like to see is a change to stubborn that you can't benefit from it when in a congaline. "You have to have ranks of at least 5 models" or something like that. So sick of all these white lions marching up and ruining your day.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Do we have any firm information or rumours about the 9th or when it will be released? I have been so out of the loop for while so have no idea what is actually going on!

 

[Borgnine]

The rumors went dry as of late and it's impossible to predict anything, no sure rumors whatsoever - people only expect that the remaining armies will be updated and then 9th edition will come out - and seeing the current pace of how WFB is getting its updates, it won't be soon :frown: It's often mentioned that new edition will reduce the amount of models and bring it closer to a skirmish game, but that maybe just a wishful thinking of all the people fed up with the hordes...

 

[Uveron]

GW has been doing a better job of keeping things under their hat as of late. News only picks up about 6 weeks before the first published info.

If we are to see a new edition this year late August is when I expect the first leaks

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

We expect 9th edition in the last quarter of this year, however the focus has shifted to 40k massively with the early new rule book, the new army book lay out and the new multi army box set.
We should with any luck be getting Brets next for fantasy if rumours are to be believed.

 

[najo]

I would bet on mid-september release for 9th edition.

 

[Borgnine]

With still Bretonnia, Beastmen and Skaven with armybooks to be updated? And at least two months of 40k between them? I think the next edition will in 2015.

But I still wouldn't be surprised if they would release Skaven, then the next edition and after that some mandatory updates of High Elves, Empire and Chaos with Bretonnia and Beastmen slipping into silent nothingness. Everything is possible with them....

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

I didn't realise the 9th could be released as early as this year. I am really hoping that the fear and terror rules are made a bit more potent, finally bring back the fear of the undead!

 

[snyggejygge]

I quite like most of the 8:th edition rules, however I do hope for a few Changes:

1. Chargers gain D3 Initiative.
2. A flank or rearcharge disrupts steadfast.
3. Fear & terror to be improved.
4. All warmachines need BS rolls to hit, would balance out cannons a bit at least.
5. Rolling double 1´s when casting a spell is autofailure & maybe even a miscast, this would remove the ridicolous amounts of 6 diced spells.
6. Balancing of spells, as it is some spells allow no saves whatsoever, I feel this is op, I would make it that wardsaves can Always save a model, this would also make Magic Resistance a bit better, all of a sudden MR 2 or 3 could save a lot of models & thereby worth those 30-45 Points.
7. Last but by no means least I would like a roof on how many models you could take in units, this should probably be pointbased as it woull allow horde armies to horde, while it would disallow elite armies from doing the most OP deathstars.

 

[najo]

I want to make my 9th wish list!!!
1) BSB only reroll rally and break tests.
2) nuke spells allow LOS/ ward saves,
3) tone down death and shadow Lore's.
4) miscast on double 1's, miscast table based on number of dice used.
5) magic resistance adds wards vs spells AND casting value of any spell cast at target unit.
6) war machines require BS rolls.
7) disruption negates steadfast.
8) difficult terrain/ woods like before.
9) can't charge a terror causing unit if failing a terror check.
10) templates randomize hits between monster and rider.
11) victory points awarded for half destroyed units
12) killing blow ignores armor on all unit types.

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

With still Bretonnia, Beastmen and Skaven with armybooks to be updated? And at least two months of 40k between them? I think the next edition will in 2015.

But I still wouldn't be surprised if they would release Skaven, then the next edition and after that some mandatory updates of High Elves, Empire and Chaos with Bretonnia and Beastmen slipping into silent nothingness. Everything is possible with them....

Beastmen were the last army of 7th, I doubt they will be done before the others.



I would love to think of the thinks which would improve 9th edition over the 8th but I think it will just make me cry.

Hope they come out with another leather bound limited edition again though.

 

[najo]

Overall, each edition has been better than the last. I think 9th will be a good one!

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

I really want them to scrap ASF, ASL and use initiative overall. Then you would apply modifiers depending on certain actions, so for example:

• Foot Unit charges: D3+1 initiative bonus
• Cav Unit charges: D3+3 initiative bonus
• Foot unit with spears: +2 to initiative when charged to the front
• Great Weapons on foot: Reduce initiative to 1

There are many more, but it means there are not blanket ASF rules and you then put the appropriate initiative on a model. So HE Swordmasters as standard could have an initiative of 9, in many cases they will be striking first, but in some, especially when charged by Cav, it shows the uncertainty of battle and the cav unit may end up with I10 (max) allowing them for a very circumstance where they get to hit first.

Defensive units with spears (and dare I say spikes) would be very worthwhile, even without steadfast, but just a useful will be getting that perfect charge off.

 

[najo]

What I don't understand about ASF and ASL "hate", is even if they weren't on the elves and great weapons etc, they would still be special rules in the game. Basically, they are attacks that occur before and after initiatives. Like impact hits (after charge, before any attacks) ASF / ASL is a legitimate design space. If you didn't have the special rule, it would eventually get built in at some point and then printed in every army book that uses it (which is what happened). ASF makes perfect sense for powers like quick blood and the corpse cart. One could argue it makes sense for all the elves having it (makes them seem a step beyond mortal). Where else are the rules for ASF/ASL so rampant that they are ruining the game?

 

[Noobafrass]

My wishlist:

Proper rules writing and support. No more RAW and RAI - just good rules. Why I've spent so much time over with Warmachine lately

 

[firstcape]

Foot Unit charges: D3+1 initiative bonus
Cav Unit charges: D3+3 initiative bonus
Foot unit with spears: +2 to initiative when charged to the front
Great Weapons on foot: Reduce initiative to 1

This I definitely agree with. Move focus from ASF/ASL to a more robust service that rewards charging and tactical charges. Spears of course would have to have a points shift, but then you'd see more "spear walls" where people can stand and wait, while other units move for tactical charges.

Something I'd like to see is a change to stubborn that you can't benefit from it when in a congaline. "You have to have ranks of at least 5 models" or something like that. So sick of all these white lions marching up and ruining your day.

I also love this idea. White Lions are a bane of my existence.
It would be good to see a release this year, but I doubt it with all the 40K love going on at the moment. I can't step into a GW shop without being told about new, shiny Orks.

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

I really want them to scrap ASF, ASL and use initiative overall. Then you would apply modifiers depending on certain actions, so for example:

• Foot Unit charges: D3+1 initiative bonus
• Cav Unit charges: D3+3 initiative bonus
• Foot unit with spears: +2 to initiative when charged to the front
• Great Weapons on foot: Reduce initiative to 1

There are many more, but it means there are not blanket ASF rules and you then put the appropriate initiative on a model. So HE Swordmasters as standard could have an initiative of 9, in many cases they will be striking first, but in some, especially when charged by Cav, it shows the uncertainty of battle and the cav unit may end up with I10 (max) allowing them for a very circumstance where they get to hit first.

Defensive units with spears (and dare I say spikes) would be very worthwhile, even without steadfast, but just a useful will be getting that perfect charge off.

So in essence you want GW to become unwieldy like in 40k?
To be honest allot of these changes i am sure we can all agree with, i miss the days when charging cav hard the advantage through and through.

The problem is that 8th edition has a fair few holes but they just seem to make the problems larger, hell I'll be happy if they just sort out Fear/ Terror and change steadfast as its complete BS atm.

The main issue with ASF in my eyes is the abuse of the rerolls as some armies have it across everything (Looking at you elves).

 

[najo]

ASF rerolls seem like an issue, but without it, high intiative units with ASF gain no benefit from it. They already are going first, so how do you reflect them going even sooner? Hence rerolls to hit.

Likewise, elves without ASF and rerolls succumb to their T3 easily. ASF really is a good attribute to represent their "edge" in combat. It allows typically small elf units to deal damage and equalize numbers before they suffer casuslities. Especially against chaos units that could out fight them.

I'd say the issue isn't so much ASF on elves, but other special rules (like stubborn Congo lines mentioned above) tied to ASF units. Warhammer solves the Congo line issue, and a lot of the broken tactics go away.

I totally agree with fear/terror being not affective enough. I'd like to see that change. It was to strong before (auto break) but its so infrequent now. Maybe if fear causing units have more ranks ie steadfast, then enemy units automatically fear them? Or, reduce leadership by fear caysing units rank bonus (opposite of skaven) and terror automatically causes fear checks to fail?

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

@Duke Danse Macabre - it depends how you view unwieldy. I much preferred some of the older complex rules, that made sense. The Necro is a good example of this, they made him undead and suffering from crumble to make things simpler, with the main reason to make it easier to get the kiddies involved and thus the money from Mum and Dad.

I'm not saying make things convoluted for the sake of it, but I do think that where it is justified it should be used.

 

[Skittelz1981]

I quite like most of the 8:th edition rules, however I do hope for a few Changes:

1. Chargers gain D3 Initiative.
2. A flank or rearcharge disrupts steadfast.
3. Fear & terror to be improved.
4. All warmachines need BS rolls to hit, would balance out cannons a bit at least.
5. Rolling double 1´s when casting a spell is autofailure & maybe even a miscast, this would remove the ridicolous amounts of 6 diced spells.
6. Balancing of spells, as it is some spells allow no saves whatsoever, I feel this is op, I would make it that wardsaves can Always save a model, this would also make Magic Resistance a bit better, all of a sudden MR 2 or 3 could save a lot of models & thereby worth those 30-45 Points.
7. Last but by no means least I would like a roof on how many models you could take in units, this should probably be pointbased as it woull allow horde armies to horde, while it would disallow elite armies from doing the most OP deathstars.

1. d3 seems alot? but ah why not, finally a chance for low ini armies to beat elves at it.
2. ?? so if i charge 1 wolf in a flank, a horde of spearmen loses steadfast? rather unlikely and unfair. Steadfast is a hard issue to balance. I think its needed but also needs to be balanced and nerfd in somekind of way.
3. agree, as of now its just too weak. Or we should just be able to lower leadership in a better way than AoDM to increase the chance of it happening.
4. no comment
5. what? whuwhuwhuuuuaat?? oh noes, even more miscasting and failing? Its already so fickle and unreliable, cant have it even worse. Our supedupertrained magicians actually all suck at the art of magic. No one can actually control it properly unless your name is Tactless or Doombullshit Warlock.
6. interesting.
7. mmm difficult. How and when are you considered an elite army? Imo all elves are pretty much elite but why would you disallow any player to horde anything? It would remove alot of freedom in creativity for listmaking, which is a bad thing.



I, for one, dont want simplified rules or watered down rules. I like lots of rules and exceptions within armybooks. That is what makes the game great in diverse. My fear with simplifying is that it becomes more dull and less characterfull.
Having lots of rules does not mean unbalanced, since every rule can be tweaked to secure balance.
I understand that lots of rules is what keeps alot of people away from such games since it requires years to actually know them but thats what i started WHFB for; a tremendous amount of things you need to take into consideration which creates depth.
Dont get me wrong, simple games can be huge fun. I just like more complicated games, as long as its well written, well explained, clear and thought out into every detail.
A proper FAQ-team that does nothing else than playtesting and taking into account bugreports and answering to those is what should be there.

 

[Adam_Barrow]

@Skittelz1981
#3 Howling Doom (or whatever) - Special Attack, Shooting Phase (all the crap for Tbat scream, basically). Dire Wolf units may howl at any unfriendly unit within 8" and within their forward arc. Unit suffers -1 Ld/full rank of Dire Wolves howling. Stacks with howls from multiple Wolf units.

Why is it taking GW so long to make /wolf/ units get a howl? When's the last time you saw a bat scream?

 

[Adam_Barrow]

-edit-
Should probably read -1 to Fear/Terror test. I guess nuking Ld would be OP.

 

[najo]

A games rules being streamlined doesn't mean the game is simple. A good game is easy to get the basics down, has a steady but attainable learning curve and then is difficult to master.

8th edition is leaning top heavy on special rules. I feel the game is the best edition so far, but it could use some streamlining and better organization for cross referencing.

I hear all the time from players, just add this rule or modifier and it wouldn't add much complexity and the game would be better. To this I say think about it. Even simple rolls and addition, like adding d3 to initiative, becomes two extra steps. Then for each unit with that rule. It has to be tracked from round to round. Then for each combat and game turn. Pretty soon a simple d3 added to intiative becomes 30 mins of added game time for very little gain. It also creates a barrier to fun for people who don't enjoy math.

So, streamlining is important. Cut out or polish rules, not add more. Just make sure the core game is well balanced and has alot of depth.

Which, as long as warhammer has regiments, facing, flank/rear, and movement being the key phase of the game, everything else can be streamlined to play the best while retaining the right feel and allowing us to use good tactical play and it be fine.

And, I'm not saying get rid of special rules. They do add flavor and interesting game play. I'm saying keep the core rules easy to learn. The advance rules streamlined. The army rules interesting and logical.