Why I'm NOT looking forward to a new Army Book

[Coyote]

Many folks, myself included, think that we got beaten with the Nerfbat with the release of 8th Ed. And many hope that the eventual release of a new book will help us. I think it won't. In fact, if the past is prologue (and it usually is), I think we'll get nerfed yet again. Here's the drawbacks that I dread:

• Reduced Magic Item list - Let's face it. Most of our crucial mechanics take advantage the old 7th ed. style, multi-page Magic List with 5-10 items per category. Now, the books are cutting back to just 8-9 items total. And may guess is that the items that currently see the most play (HoC, Drakenhof, etc.) will get the ax unless they're particularly fluffy {e.g. Blood Drinker).
• Reworked Lore - I have no faith in our keeping the ability to spam Necro spells. Most of spells on the Lore fit fine in 8th, but I think IoN spam will go the way of the Betamax tapes.
• Reworked Bloodlines - While our Magic Item list is getting whacked to pieces, I think Bloodlines will too. Especially if they're looking to go after the WE Spites in their reprint (which is also overdue)
• Still no Shooting Phase - I know that we deserve missile troops to round things out. And for gods sake, we need warmachines. But I doubt we'll get them because there seems to be some lame law that says Vampires can't/won't shoot stuff.

I guess that's enough negativity for the time being. What do you folks think?

 

[hairyjeff]

I think you have hit the nail. With the notable exception of Dwarves, who don't use magic anyway, no recent army book has been an improvement,IMO. As a matter of fact, as a house rule, we now allow ANY army book, but all choices MUST be in that book. It makes for some interesting armies! But I feel that some of G.W.'s writers might not actually play.....

 

[Kaptain Von]

[*]Reduced Magic Item list - Let's face it. Most of our crucial mechanics take advantage the old 7th ed. style, multi-page Magic List with 5-10 items per category. Now, the books are cutting back to just 8-9 items total. And may guess is that the items that currently see the most play (HoC, Drakenhof, etc.) will get the ax unless they're particularly fluffy {e.g. Blood Drinker).

I'm not sure this is such a bad thing. I've supported the shift towards expanded Common Magic Items because so many of the same generic effects - ward saves, +2 to combat stats, Dispel scrolls with fancy extras - cropped up in the same books, and books without a generic 5+ Ward for 30 points received cool responses. I would rather see the crucial mechanics redeveloped so that they don't depend on the presence of must-take magic items.

[*]Reworked Lore - I have no faith in our keeping the ability to spam Necro spells. Most of spells on the Lore fit fine in 8th, but I think IoN spam will go the way of the Betamax tapes.

Given what happened to the Tomb Kings, I think I concur. I would, however, like to see a mini-Vanhel's (a four inch move, say) as the Lore Effect for Necromancy, comparable to the mini-summon for the Tomb Kings on their Lore of Nehekhara.

[*]Reworked Bloodlines - While our Magic Item list is getting whacked to pieces, I think Bloodlines will too. Especially if they're looking to go after the WE Spites in their reprint (which is also overdue)

I hope not. The assorted vampiric powers are cool; they lead to the overpriced-for-what-they-are Vampire characters, admittedly, but they are fun. Maybe they'll bring back the old Vampire statline? Hope springs eternal, right?

[*]Still no Shooting Phase - I know that we deserve missile troops to round things out. And for gods sake, we need warmachines. But I doubt we'll get them because there seems to be some lame law that says Vampires can't/won't shoot stuff.

I've been whinging about the "bad guys don't get tech" principle since the Chaos Dwarfs were pushed out. Tomb Kings and Dark Elves just about manage souped-up stone and bolt throwers, but the goodies get cannons and steam helicopters and rapid-firing armour-piercing handguns. WFB has too many armies that rely on the magic phase to support movement (spells providing mobility or board control) and supplement or replace shooting (spells providing direct damage or debuffs for mediocre ranged weapons), leading to dominance by those armies that are capable in those phases on their own and can afford to use their magic for Doom Spells. It's been this way for years, but it's become more and more noticeable of late, and particularly now that eighth edition has landed.

 

[Coyote]

Reworked Lore - I have no faith in our keeping the ability to spam Necro spells. Most of spells on the Lore fit fine in 8th, but I think IoN spam will go the way of the Betamax tapes.

Given what happened to the Tomb Kings, I think I concur. I would, however, like to see a mini-Vanhel's (a four inch move, say) as the Lore Effect for Necromancy, comparable to the mini-summon for the Tomb Kings on their Lore of Nehekhara.

Wow. That's a GREAT idea. Although I'd guess we'll have the TK rez-based-on-buff mechanic instead.

As to your other points, you make good ones. I think that there's an outside chance that we'll see a return to the Shooting Phase. We'll likely see the addition of the Troop Types that we currently lack (Monstrous Infantry, Monstrous Cavalry) and while they're adding those units, we may get mana from the Immaterium.

Oh, speaking of Monstrous Cavalry, here's a guess:

• Monstrous Cavalry - Our current Blood Knights will get a rework and will be reclassified as Monstrous, switching to a wider base (ouch), but allowing 3x wide per rank and adding Stomp.
  • This would be freaking awesome, if it went along with the addition of Werewolf or Vampire Infantry. (Vampire Infantry is referenced in the stories that exist about Vlad. But so are Archers and Thralls on AT, so I'm not holding my breath.)

And one more:

• Black Coach - A major rework is coming. :zombie: It may get cut altogether. :grave:

 

[Dan_Lee]

I'd say your predictions are correct Cayote, but I'd still be glad to get a new book.

The reduced item list and re-worked lore I can live with. IoN spam may go, as will charging with Vanahl's, but so long as we end up with 5-7 usable spells rather than 2 or 3, I'll be happy.

I want us to keep bloodlines, but we have no idea what GW will do as they haven't released and 8th Ed army book with an equivalent yet.

There's no reason to say for certain we won't get a shooting phase, and I can live without one if our magic gets better again.

What I'm really looking forward to is having more viable units. Either by re-working/re-pricing our existing units to make them useful, or by adding new units.

 

[Anubis]

Many folks, myself included, think that we got beaten with the Nerfbat with the release of 8th Ed. And many hope that the eventual release of a new book will help us. I think it won't. In fact, if the past is prologue (and it usually is), I think we'll get nerfed yet again.

Well, we desperately need a new book, if only to properly re-point 99% of our damn army!!!

As for getting crappier, well, that depends solely on who write the book;
- Phil or Cruddance would be a godsend! The tomb kings turned out to be a great book, while Phil's books are proven to withstand the test of time.
- Vetock is a good/bad senario. The orc list itself for example is solid, the magic items are the worst in warhammer's exisitance though! Then there's the fact he turned skaven into the new 'god army'... ('cause he plays them see!.)
- Ward is the doomsday senario. If we thought Gav 'whats play-testing' Thrope was a complete idiot who has given us one of the game's worst ever books, well, look at what we got for our SoM spells!
Ward admittidly doesn't play the game that much, and he seems to have some deep-seeded hatred towards the counts...

Here's the drawbacks that I dread:
Reduced Magic Item list - Let's face it. Most of our crucial mechanics take advantage the old 7th ed. style, multi-page Magic List with 5-10 items per category. Now, the books are cutting back to just 8-9 items total. And may guess is that the items that currently see the most play (HoC, Drakenhof, etc.) will get the ax unless they're particularly fluffy {e.g. Blood Drinker).

Well, like or not we'll be dropping down to the 8 items... However, this is made-up for by the masses of new BRB items, so as long we don't get the O&G style shaft, this shouldn't be that huge a concern... (the TK items turned out to be pretty decent.)

Reworked Lore - I have no faith in our keeping the ability to spam Necro spells. Most of spells on the Lore fit fine in 8th, but I think IoN spam will go the way of the Betamax tapes.

Well, the ability to re-cast has been a part of our army since both of it's 'original' inceptions... (it was there as Warhammer Armies: Undead & Warhammer Armies: Vampire Counts.)
I could see it though going back to it's old 4th/5th ed roots, where you had to roll to see if you could re-cast a givin spell, and it was never better than a 3+ IIRC, while typically you needed a 5+ to re-cast.

Invocation simply needs to go back to it's 6th ed version where it had a scaling ability. Keep it as a 'known spell' by all our wizards and even if we can't re-cast it, we'd still be fine.

Reworked Bloodlines - While our Magic Item list is getting whacked to pieces, I think Bloodlines will too. Especially if they're looking to go after the WE Spites in their reprint (which is also overdue)

This is a huge question right now! "What happens in 8th with Powers/Virtues/Marks/Gifts... They are an instrumental part of those armies, and are not the newer add-ons like the lost spawnings and (likely) lost sprites and similar.
These upgrades have again been a solid & defining part of their respective armies since the very beginning. Mind you, if Ward writes shit, anything can happen.:slapface:

Still no Shooting Phase - I know that we deserve missile troops to round things out. And for gods sake, we need warmachines. But I doubt we'll get them because there seems to be some lame law that says Vampires can't/won't shoot stuff.

See, I'm kinda, ever-so-slightly optimistic here. GW has done a 180 turn here, as the other "will not ever shoot armies" have been given at least 1 or 2 options... Nothing to gunline with, but still;
- Lizardmen gained a new couple new shooting options which pretty much doubled what they had
- Daemons have the utterly disgusting Flamers of Tzeentch
- Warriors got the Hellcannon, on top of their already present throwing weapon option for Mounted Mauarders. And let's not forget an expaned range of breath weapons & the Bloodcurdling Roar gift.
- Beastmen gained short bows (whoopie) and the Cygor is a walking stone thrower.
- Tomb Kings gained the stalkers & a breath weapon option to add to their bowstrings & catapult.

Currently, we are the ONE AND ONLY ARMY IN THE GAME!!! that can't even roll a single, 'real' D6 in the shooting phase... (175pts rare slot banshees don't count for scratch!)


I know it's quite scary to thik of what GW could do to us with a new book, simply because they allowed Gav to completely feth-up the last one! (and the darkness alone only knows had badly Ward could feth it up even more so!)
Still, if the worst happens and Ward nerfs us even further, we then simply have to 100% refuse to buy/use the new book, stick to our old 6th ed book and perhaps GW will finally wake-up and shoot Ward for us?!

Cheers!

 

[Seneschal]

Perhaps we will be given access to a wider range of lords/heroes in the same vein (sorry, I had to...) as the greenskins? For example; Lahmian hero, Strigoi hero, Master Necromancer and so on. Each would have different stats, stock abilities, point costs and perhaps they WILL be given the option for a few powers (if not, well, we'll have to deal with it). I guess essentially what I'm saying is that we could possibly have a return to 6th edition, which wouldn't be bad in theory.
I would definitely be glad if our heroes were no longer jack of all trades master of none with their vulnerable stat blocks (in comparison to other armies, shouldn't the undead be tougher?).

 

[Zhatan]

I'd say your predictions are correct Cayote, but I'd still be glad to get a new book.

The reduced item list and re-worked lore I can live with. IoN spam may go, as will charging with Vanahl's, but so long as we end up with 5-7 usable spells rather than 2 or 3, I'll be happy.

I want us to keep bloodlines, but we have no idea what GW will do as they haven't released and 8th Ed army book with an equivalent yet.

There's no reason to say for certain we won't get a shooting phase, and I can live without one if our magic gets better again.

What I'm really looking forward to is having more viable units. Either by re-working/re-pricing our existing units to make them useful, or by adding new units.

I actually do hope invocation spam goes and instead make VC playable without it. I thing raising should be a tool that we can use sometimes if needed but it should not be required at all times for us to viable and it should not be as easy as it is now.

I really hope we keep bloodlines too... actually I want our old bloodlines back the way they were in.. 6th? I think it was.

See Dan we can agree on somethings :lol:

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

I'm all for having the 6th edition bloodlines, but I am really not sure. GW seem to want to simplify things, and stat changing Lords is something that will get them worrying it might be too complicated for a 10 year old

I'm not too bothered about the reduction in magic items any more, providing we are left with some of the decent / traditional ones. It is similar to the old Undead book, which I loved.

As Anubis said, I would be surprised if they do away with recasting altogether, we have had that for ages. I agree it will most likely be tweaked to make scale from harder to easy as the wizard levels go up.

Shooting phase.....not too sure on this. The idea has always been, undead shooting: TK, no shooting: VC. Then again when we had that deal, we also have much better vampires I would much prefer to have that deal back, with a higher stat vampire Lord option than shooting.

If they give me back the bloodines, a vamp lord, a few decent magic items, a good lore and some viable units I'll be happy to miss out on shooting

 

[Irisado]

Many folks, myself included, think that we got beaten with the Nerfbat with the release of 8th Ed.

Is this really the case, or is it a case of hyperbole? I come across posts all the time, which start with 'many people/everyone/loads of us think that army book/codex x' is not powerful enough. I mean no offence to you, but it's a cliché, and a very tired one at that, and I really do wonder just how badly off Vampires really are in eighth edition.

In seventh they were clearly exceptionally good, and probably too good if the reports that I read are anything to go by, so are they really suffering that badly in eighth edition? If the problem is a few overcosted units, I really don't see that there is much cause for complaint.

I also take particular issue with this point:

[*]Still no Shooting Phase - I know that we deserve missile troops to round things out. And for gods sake, we need warmachines. But I doubt we'll get them because there seems to be some lame law that says Vampires can't/won't shoot stuff.

I do not see the need war machines in my opinion. The army operates well enough without them, and there has to be some internal balance somewhere, and one way of doing this with Vampires is for them not to have war machines and ranged units.

If you can provide specific examples to explain why Vampire Counts cannot win (note the emphasis) without war machines, then I'm listening, but otherwise, I just think that it's case of managing what you have, and exploiting the advantages that Vampire armies have in other areas.

As a final thought, this kind of speculation rarely leads to constructive discussion, and tends to result in a lot of ill founded concerns, and crazy wishlisting. I think that it's just better to wait and see what GW decides to do, rather than to indulge in this sort of speculation.

 

[Coyote]

LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO! LMAO!

Many folks, myself included, think that we got beaten with the Nerfbat with the release of 8th Ed.

Is this really the case, or is it a case of hyperbole? I come across posts all the time, which start with 'many people/everyone/loads of us think that army book/codex x' is not powerful enough. I mean no offence to you, but it's a cliché, and a very tired one at that, and I really do wonder just how badly off Vampires really are in eighth edition...

...As a final thought, this kind of speculation rarely leads to constructive discussion, and tends to result in a lot of ill founded concerns, and crazy wishlisting. I think that it's just better to wait and see what GW decides to do, rather than to indulge in this sort of speculation.

*Gasp* Whew! Wow, I haven't seen or engaged in this level of ad hominem in quite some time. En garde! I hope that you see that you tried to discredit my, admittedly, hyperbolic statement by making one in return. And that now, I'll riposte with tu quoque simply by pointing out that your equally hyperbolic statement is made with no more offer of proof that I originally provided. (Perhaps, this is why we Vamps shouldn't look in the mirror. We may not like what we see. :Vampire1: )

Now, to your point. While my original statement was hyperbolic in nature, that did not necessarily make it fallacious. The facts are:

1. It is my opinion. I am entitled to it. I played regularly in numerous tournaments prior to the release of 8th, only stopping for work reasons. I'd hesitate doing so now, under current conditions, because of the issues with the current Army Book under 8th ed. that are discussed ad nauseum elsewhere. If you would like links to those threads, I'll be happy to provide as manny are you like.
2. It is also the opinion of others, as seen in the following quote from another thread:

   GW will wait until our book to fix the army proper.

   
   Or break us horribly by making everything overpowered. However, looking at the armies that have already been re-done, I'd say the odds are about 60/40, in favour of being semi-balanced, at best.

So, yes, my original statement was hyperbolic. It was also factual. I understand the sentiment that it might be irritating. But I find it equally irritating to hear folks voice the fantasy that a new Army Book will rebalance our list, curb Global Warming, align the planets, and solve the Energy Crisis. (above) Which is precisely the reason that I started this discussion, in order to pop those fantasy bubbles and get folks to be thankful for what they have.

Now to warmachines/shooting:

If you can provide specific examples to explain why Vampire Counts cannot win (note the emphasis) without war machines, then I'm listening, but otherwise, I just think that it's case of managing what you have, and exploiting the advantages that Vampire armies have in other areas.

Um, no. Your argument is a straw man. I don't think that VC need war machines or shooting in order to win certain situations, any more than Empire does. No, I suggest that VC deserves shooting, even the weaka$$ shooting that WoC have, because it adds flavor and fluff. I mean, how kool would it be to have a Zombie Catapult heave corpses into the enemy? And VC had archers and even warmachines in the Sylvania lists and using DoW. I don't see why it's such an issue to bring it back, if only for fluff. (And now, Storm of Magic has kind of brought it back anyway with scrolls, so who cares? Why not put it in the main list, so we can use them in tournaments?)

The argument that VC shouldn't have any shooting due to "balance" doesn't hold water in my mind. Not because I don't respect balance arguments; as a long time MtG player, I do. But Games Workshop couldn't balance their way out of a brown paper sack with this approach, so why not go back to the methods that worked in years previous?

Ok, I'm done ranting for now.

 

[Missing an Arm]

When I first started reading the rumors about 8th Edition all I could think about is how similar it is to 4/5th Edition.

The return of the percentage system
The random magic (for those that remember the old magic cards)
Numerous "common" magic items with only a few race specific
The inclusion of Arkhan the Black in the Tomb Kings book

and now with the inception of Storm of Magic we are even able to add monsters to our armies, which we were able to do in both editions.

It seems the game is going back to that time with the lessons learned from the editions between then and now and we will most likely be able to look at other books for examples on what to expect for out army.

The tombs kings book was a good example:

Cheaper skeletons
A decent, small, magic item list that include characterful and traditional items that are expensive and perhaps more powerful versions of classic items
the addition of a new monster (this seems to already be confirmed)
No loss of any current models (If they drop the Black Coach I will seriously cry)

As for bloodlines we are going to have to look at upcoming books for any indication of whay they MAY look like. How GW deals with Ogre Kingdoms Big Names and marks of Chaos will be good examples.

I'm going to agree and say that we are probably not going to get a shooting phase, I'm torn whether this is a good or bad thing. At most I can see us getting zombie crossbowmen, but I think that is a little far fetched.

I know this is off topic but I just feel like it needs to be said. The one thing I want from the new book is a return of the classic special characters. Kemmler and Krell got me into this game, I need to see them back (and having Dieter back would be awesome as well).

 

[Zhatan]

@Irisado

I think that VC are still very good, in fact I win alot of the games I play, but the problem is we are a one trick pony imo. To be able to pull it of I need my big units of GG and ghouls, my vampire with motba and helm of command. I try to do variations and try new things but mostly its just a choie between wraith, varghulf and coach... sure in friendly matches you can try stuff out and play a softer list but if you want to win there isn't much choice imo.

 

[Anubis]

Is this really the case, or is it a case of hyperbole? I come across posts all the time, which start with 'many people/everyone/loads of us think that army book/codex x' is not powerful enough. I mean no offence to you, but it's a cliché, and a very tired one at that, and I really do wonder just how badly off Vampires really are in eighth edition.

In terms of "are we just as gimped as the other 'soft' books like the brets, ogres & wood elves?"
The answer is yes we are. Having 1 solid, gimmiky, one-trick-poney list does not a good & balanced army book make!

All four of these books are crying for re-working because each and every book shares the exact same problems; lack of viable unit variety.

I dare anyone to try and 'break the norm' and play a list beyond the ghoul spam + GG deathstar + filler of choice and go toe-to-toe with even semi-comeptitive lists from the likes of the HE's, DE's, skaven, lizardmen, warriors, daemons, dwarfs...

In seventh they were clearly exceptionally good, and probably too good if the reports that I read are anything to go by, so are they really suffering that badly in eighth edition? If the problem is a few overcosted units, I really don't see that there is much cause for complaint.

In 7th ed were an easily exploitable & highly abusable book, but we were nowhere near the level of broken'ness that was the daemons!

That we could min/max so badly and then just spam an easy to cast spell simply proves that our was highly flawed right from the start... Gav "what's playtesting" Thrope screwed up bigtime with the VC's, and it shows.

I do not see the need war machines in my opinion. The army operates well enough without them, and there has to be some internal balance somewhere, and one way of doing this with Vampires is for them not to have war machines and ranged units.

If you can provide specific examples to explain why Vampire Counts cannot win (note the emphasis) without war machines, then I'm listening, but otherwise, I just think that it's case of managing what you have, and exploiting the advantages that Vampire armies have in other areas.

Take all the issue you want with the idea of VC's have an option or two in the shooting phase... That is your opinion afterall, and there's nothing wrong with it!

But, as a VC player, how are we supposed to deal with cheap, large horde units?
a) Banshees. Our only 'shooting' option right now, and utterly laughable at best... killing 3-4 models out of a 30-40+ unit? sure, that'll make all difference right there!

b) 'Uber magic spells. Because those win you lots of friends of corse... Yes they are ment as an answer to the larger unit sizes, but no one likes getting hit with a spell there's quite litteraly no defense at all, and simply removes an entire unit (or units) in one fell swoop!
'Uber spells are hated for a damn good reason - if magic res worked against them and/or they only did 1 wound, they wouldn't be so broken.
Also, magic isn't the most reliable thing, and the miscast backlash is worse for undead than other armies.

c) Bring a Gravestar or Bloodbus. Because that's full of fun right there!
I shouldn't be forced into needing to bring a specific & very pts-costly unit to the table to deal hordes.

d) We have nothing really to stop an opponent from gunlining us to death.
Again, yes there is a ghoulkin stratagy, by why the feth should I be forced to collect specific models when I want to collect something else?!!

The point is, VC's have the fewest ways of dealing with a major aspect of the game and it's lead to a big part of our army's stagnation... Our army is boring as all hell right now *if* we want to win.
Adding in a war machine such as a stone thrower gives VC's an out and will break-up the monotony of our lists... (seriously, name the last time you saw a non-ghoul spam/gravestar build in anything beyond a friendly giggles game?!!)

Just because we get a shooting option DOES NOT! mean *everyone* has to take it - those of us like it and feel it fits our army's backstory will be happy, and those who want to ignore it can freely do so!

As a final thought, this kind of speculation rarely leads to constructive discussion, and tends to result in a lot of ill founded concerns, and crazy wishlisting. I think that it's just better to wait and see what GW decides to do, rather than to indulge in this sort of speculation.

Ah! But my dear friend, rummors & lies are my trade... Great Tzeentch's plans cannot be fathomed by us lowly mortals, and all this silly 'speculation' is simply an amusing part of His Grand Scheme!

I am simply helping to stir the pot...

Cheers!

 

[artisturn]

Many folks, myself included, think that we got beaten with the Nerfbat with the release of 8th Ed. And many hope that the eventual release of a new book will help us. I think it won't. In fact, if the past is prologue (and it usually is), I think we'll get nerfed yet again. Here's the drawbacks that I dread:

• Reduced Magic Item list - Let's face it. Most of our crucial mechanics take advantage the old 7th ed. style, multi-page Magic List with 5-10 items per category. Now, the books are cutting back to just 8-9 items total. And may guess is that the items that currently see the most play (HoC, Drakenhof, etc.) will get the ax unless they're particularly fluffy {e.g. Blood Drinker).
• Reworked Lore - I have no faith in our keeping the ability to spam Necro spells. Most of spells on the Lore fit fine in 8th, but I think IoN spam will go the way of the Betamax tapes.
• Reworked Bloodlines - While our Magic Item list is getting whacked to pieces, I think Bloodlines will too. Especially if they're looking to go after the WE Spites in their reprint (which is also overdue)
• Still no Shooting Phase - I know that we deserve missile troops to round things out. And for gods sake, we need warmachines. But I doubt we'll get them because there seems to be some lame law that says Vampires can't/won't shoot stuff.

I guess that's enough negativity for the time being. What do you folks think?

Well I agree with you on the Nerfing of our army but I am inclined to more optimistic about our new book.

Yes the VC will be reduced in the number of magic items but the common magic items in the BRB are pretty decent, what I predict what will happen that some of our current magic items will only be available with certain special characters (similar to the new O&G book).

What I am really hoping for is points adjustments for our core troops and I am really hoping that everything in our core counts toward our core choice as well (this has always bothered me).

As for being able to spam ION I am fifty fifty on that,if our core troops are cheap enough then the need to pump them up with ION won't be as crucial still important but not as crucial.

Hopefully the vampire powers section won't be tampered with too much since that is what really adds character to our army.

And most important of all, please please GW give us some kind of shooting.

I didn't mind not having shooting in 7th since I was able to rely on Magic but shooting is so much better in 8th with the removal of partials and I have had to remove whole units in the shooting phase.
Even Ghouls with their T4 cannot stand up to shooting when your opponent focuses all of their shooting on single units until they are wiped out .

Well I am keeping my hopes up that We will be able to function better in 8th with different kinds of lists,all ghouls and grave guard got boring real fast.

 

[Sanai]

Personally I think
1# Spamming necro spells has always been the boring, unimaginative way to win with vc
2# Having missile troops in the list would ruin the flavour of the vampire counts army. If you want crappy archer skeletons, go play tomb kings, or take skeleton archers from the tomb kings list as a pact unit in storm of magic.
3# A new release is always a great thing, because it means we will a# get new models and b# we will probably return to being overpowered (as per games workshops infamous codex creep) again so everyone on this website stops bloody complaining about actually having to put effort in to win a battle.
4# why the hell do you want shooting in VC anyway? I like having an army where I can literally throw everything into assault, hence denying the enemy any targets to shoot at with his missile weapons.
5# If we had shooting, everyone would start whining that our shooting is pointless because skeletons have really, really crappy ballistic skills.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

After reading through this thread, I still think that overall I look forward to our new book. The possible benefits outweigh the negatives offered in my opinion, though I am concerned about how customisable (or lack thereof) our characters will end up.

 

[BoneHeart]

I'm looking forward too, but I'm not hoping we will see it within 1 year. ITs kinda salty dream.

Shooting: We dont need any shooting. EXCEPT A CATAPULT like in the fluff. Because throwing corpses into the Fortress and raising them thereafter is always fun!

Magic: We need necromancy style, repeatable spells imo. Direct raising.
OR they should change IoN, to not lose control if it fails.

CC: Crap, but hell-cheap troops.
And most importantly tougher vampires...because killing with I6-7 wont save you from stepping forward troops.

Overall: VC needs to focus on supportive, raising, spammable necro magic, with really really tough and toolbox vampires + "pulling the strings" like style. Vamps controlling undead troops like puppets. VDM, etc... I would like that.

 

[Irisado]

In terms of "are we just as gimped as the other 'soft' books like the brets, ogres & wood elves?"
The answer is yes we are. Having 1 solid, gimmiky, one-trick-poney list does not a good & balanced army book make!

Are you a tournament player by any chance? I ask because it's mostly these players who classify books and armies in this manner. For those of us who don't play in tournaments, this really doesn't mean a great deal.

I dare anyone to try and 'break the norm' and play a list beyond the ghoul spam + GG deathstar + filler of choice and go toe-to-toe with even semi-comeptitive lists from the likes of the HE's, DE's, skaven, lizardmen, warriors, daemons, dwarfs...

This, again, sounds like tournament speak to me.

I am taking on your dare, so to speak, as I'm playing against Daemons, and I'm not fielding a deathstar (a really poor way to spend points in my opinion, and a very silly name for a unit concept, since the Deathstar failed on both occasions it was used ), or spamming Ghouls, and while it will be difficult to beat them, I think that most armies have trouble defeating Daemons, so this hardly suggests that the Vampire Counts book is so terrible from where I'm sitting.

b) 'Uber magic spells. Because those win you lots of friends of corse... Yes they are ment as an answer to the larger unit sizes, but no one likes getting hit with a spell there's quite litteraly no defense at all, and simply removes an entire unit (or units) in one fell swoop!
'Uber spells are hated for a damn good reason - if magic res worked against them and/or they only did 1 wound, they wouldn't be so broken.
Also, magic isn't the most reliable thing, and the miscast backlash is worse for undead than other armies.

Yes, magic is unreliable, and yes it can be abused, but you don't have to abuse it to put a dent in large units. You're talking as though you have to wipe them out to beat them. You only need to soften them up to a certain extent, so that your units can defeat them in close combat.

I shouldn't be forced into needing to bring a specific & very pts-costly unit to the table to deal hordes.

Play casually, and unless you have some very dubious friends, this problem should be solved .

d) We have nothing really to stop an opponent from gunlining us to death.

We have flyers. Okay, they are not all that great, I agree, but they're good enough to deal with artillery. Mass missile troops in ranks are definitely more of a problem, but this has been the case in the past too, yet we coped.

Now, it may well be that the book needs some changes in certain areas to make life a bit easier for Vampire Counts players, however, adding shooting options is not the way I think should be employed as a solution.

Vampire Counts armies have never had shooting options, save for the Banshee, yet have been able to win, so I am confident that the experienced players on this forum would be able to come up with ideas which would solve some of the issues that you highlight without resorting to adding shooting options to the book.

Just because we get a shooting option DOES NOT! mean *everyone* has to take it - those of us like it and feel it fits our army's backstory will be happy, and those who want to ignore it can freely do so!

A slight problem with this is that if we follow your line of thinking that everyone always spams the best, or necessary, options, adding these shooting options would just mean that, according to you, everyone would take this option. This would then lead to more one dimensional armies, which is something you are complaining about.

I am simply helping to stir the pot...

Be careful how much you stir the pot is all I will say, as newer members, such as myself, who don't know you, may be inclined to take you seriously. Lengthy posts along the lines of 'almost everything sucks and we can only win with two units' (n.b. i'm not suggesting this is precisely what you have argued, but this is how it could be perceived) I always feel sceptical about, for example .

As a final note, I get the impression that we are coming from two very different positions on this. For example, it does not matter to me who did what with which list at any tournament, and so called 'top tier' play (which is not necessarily exclusive to tournaments), so I take a completely different perspective to you, viewing 'top tier' player as being bad for the game as a whole in my opinion, because it encourages one dimensional play regardless of how well the army book is written in terms of balance and unit choice. If you, therefore, hold the position that 'top tier' play is good for the game, it's probably advisable for us not to continue this debate .

 

[Sanai]

Very good post Irisado.

I do not personally think army books should be written with tournament play in mind. They should be written with balanced, fair but casual/fun gameplay as the priority, as that is what the majority of warhammer players actually do most the time. High tier torunament play should not be the deciding playstyle in the terms of the rules and armybooks.
Personally I feel that adding shooting options is a bit too... "If we can't beat em, join em!". If shooting is a problem, I dont see how adding more shooting is going to fix the problem in the overall scheme of things.
My solution would instead be the following-
1# Cheaper troops, to bring the vc more in line with the tomb kings's points cost scaling. This would result in us being able to field bigger units of skeletons that can survive more fire, and hold longer in combat.
2# better necromancers. I think necromancers should be made more effective at supporting/raising our troops, so they can be a cheap, viable option that really helps our army.
3# make corpse carts desirable in some way, and not as much of an easy target.
4# Make the various flying units the VC have useful again, by buffing them in various ways. If fell bats were actually good, they would be a fantastic counter to war machines, and bat swarms I think would be great if they could be used as screening units, getting into the line of fire of missile units and taking the hits, or even being able to have some special ability which messes with non war machine missile fire (how would you shoot with bats all over the place being annoying?)
5# Make vampires slightly better. Give us some simple, but good and effective options to customise them. I dont think we actually need too many options, just perhaps.... 2 or 3 options per bloodline? Or even just a "choose a bloodline" option could even suffice, as long as a more powerful version/versions were available to lords and a few upgrade options here and there (like vampiric flight, scout, extra magic levels and forbidden lore).
6# Make abyssal terrors and zombie dragons well.... not suck. Make them just as effective for their cost as other armies monstrous mounts and they should be fine.

 

[artisturn]

I guess I should of said a war machine option instead of shooting.

In the group I belong too I have to face gun lines often and the shooting phase is just not a fun part of the game for me.

It would be more fun if I could a least do some thing other then remove dead troops in that phase, now don't get me wrong I love the Banshee shooting option and She has done well for me when I have to face Lizardmen.

 

[VvC]

The only "Shooting" unit that I think would be fitting would be some kind of War Machine. I'm completely fine without massed ranks of skeleton archers, or with a 0-1 option on the War Machine, but I just find it slightly funny that we have one of the most notorious siege army's in the game, yet we do not have anything that we can use to siege with. Probably some "Morale Breaking" sort of siege unit would be more in line with our fluff, as we've never really been the, "Oi! Blow 'em up!" sort of army.

Of course, I'm going to keep wish-listing for some sort of living militia unit, but that's only because I have some odd, unnatural love affair with the von Carstein alternate list on the back of the 6th ed book. I'll just keep running allied Empire...

 

[Sanai]

VvC... you can easily make that army now, at least for storm of magic games.
Take empire as your army, then a vampiric pact representing the vampire lord and his undead troops, with the bulk of the army being your sylvanian levies.

Aristurn, now you know how dwarf and khorne players feel during the magic phase.

 

[Stealthman]

I'm looking forward too, but I'm not hoping we will see it within 1 year. ITs kinda salty dream.

Shooting: We dont need any shooting. EXCEPT A CATAPULT like in the fluff. Because throwing corpses into the Fortress and raising them thereafter is always fun!

Magic: We need necromancy style, repeatable spells imo. Direct raising.
OR they should change IoN, to not lose control if it fails.

CC: Crap, but hell-cheap troops.
And most importantly tougher vampires...because killing with I6-7 wont save you from stepping forward troops.

Overall: VC needs to focus on supportive, raising, spammable necro magic, with really really tough and toolbox vampires + "pulling the strings" like style. Vamps controlling undead troops like puppets. VDM, etc... I would like that.

some awesome ideas in here! i would love to see a corpse catapult which spreads a disease or curse to the living! even if it replaced a few spells, i think that would be cool turn of style!

IMO undead raising should be a bit easier but should bring in new units at the feet of the caster - take out the losing combat crumble - and make it that the units u raise have to walk a bit further and really swarm other teams afterall how can an undead army NOT be a huge swarm of crappy soldiers!!

 

[BoneHeart]

Thanks

I recommend The Von Carstein Trilogy to read.
A really-really good boook, and gives you a true and in-depth sight how a vampire army really works, and what stuff Vlad, Konrad and Mannfred used to purge out the living.

But still: I want varghulf catapults!