"you have to take ghouls"

[Poxous]

Played in a doubles tournament this weekend. I ran a block of 40 ghouls. They completely destroyed everything in their path.

Hands down ghouls are one of the best units in WFB under 8th ed rules.

 

[Mortus946736]

Poxous... You had obscenely good luck then i am afraid. That is a trolling statement as well, given the post above.

 

[TobinRoss89]

Yeah....if ghouls are one of the best units point for point in fantasy then Im a great red fire dragon that taps dance.

@ Proxous if you really think that they are that good I want to see your face when you price out some marauders with MoK and flails/great weapons.

 

[Lord Fear]

Poxous... You had obscenely good luck then i am afraid. That is a trolling statement as well, given the post above.

Calling people trolls like that is not okay. People are allowed to share their experiences here, whether you agree with them or not.

 

[Mortus946736]

I didnt call him a troll... I said his statement seems to be trolling given the context.

 

[waaanial00]

I didnt call him a troll... I said his statement seems to be trolling given the context.

And therefore calling him a troll. Dont argue with the mods, you generally never come out well.

 

[Lord Crosis]

He's not trolling, he is merely referring to a tourney that happened in my game store where a VC player(I assume it was him) thoroughly thrashed everyone.

Honestly, I've used both and have had lackluster results both times. I will say though, poison is amazing. At the end of the day, VC core sucks without buffs and our heroes are and have always been the real killers.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

In what way was his statement trolling? He was stating his experience and thus his opinion. It was not derogatory or insulting in anyway. Lord Fear was quite correct in his statement.

Secondly I would support Poxous statement. I personally do think that Skeletons are a great unit, and I much prefer them over Ghouls. However I would not deny that point for point Ghouls are one of the best cores available. Perhaps not the best, but certainly up there.

Like I have said earlier in this thread, people get the advice they are asked for. If you ask what is the best core, if people think Ghouls are they will say so. This is not something that CN is trying to force down peoples throats, it is something that he majority of VC players agree on. If you don’t like that advice, fair enough. But there is no need to get so wound up about, just state your view and move on. Saying that everyone seems to have a “hard on” about it really doesn’t really help either. .

If you don’t like Ghouls fine, just make that clear when you are asking advice and I am sure you will get the advice that you are looking for.

 

[bored1]

Man not to be crude or anything but wow this site has one major hard on for ghouls right now. Sure they are good but it seems that skeletons are being wrote off way to soon.

Yeah....if ghouls are one of the best units point for point in fantasy then Im a great red fire dragon that taps dance.

@ Proxous if you really think that they are that good I want to see your face when you price out some marauders with MoK and flails/great weapons.

Illustrate your point please. I think VC have to bring both, with the majority leaning towards ghouls. The ghouls are generally better, but there are specific situations where the skeletons will shine. And on ghouls being point for point one of the best core units in the game...just because marauders are amazing doesn't mean that other units can't be good. I don't know if I agree with being one of the best core units, but they're certainly in the top half. Possibly top 10 or so.

Now that is something that Ghouls can never accomplish, you have to rely on your opponent rolling horribly for the same event to take place. Besides, its far more satisfying to win from your dice rolls than those of your opponent wink .

Why do you have to rely on your opponent rolling terribly for that to be the case? Mathhammer isn't about absolutes, but as you say, likelihood. Sure the exceptions are great and story points, but I think ghouls are not any less capable.

Outing one, the ghouls got shot by skinks, and died prety resoundingly

Outing two, dryads tore them multiple arseholes.

Outing three, charegd some high elf calvary, they fleed and my ghouls didn't quite catch them, a prince on a dragon then mopped them up in two turns.

I'm confused. Outside of the skinks, how would skeletons have benefitted you more in any of the scenarios? Just because ghouls didn't perform well doesn't mean that skeletons would do better.

 

[Count Lasombra]

They would have hade a 5+ vs skink poison.
They would have had a 6+/6++ against the Dryads.
And they still woulda got pooched by the Stardragon.

 

[snowblood]

Okay as the initial poster of this thread and the cause of somewhat 'a touchy subject'
Let's bring this full circle shall we.
So on the whole ghouls seem to do a better job in close combat.
Skellies have their place what for banners and cheap bunkers.
Zombies are a still a good tar pit or missile screen.

But this really wasn't my intention, as I have stated before, it was to get a discussion going into how and what we can use to tool up our other core choices in order to get the job done. Personally I feel the weight of the vc's are in buffing up its core. As an innate magical being the vampire can harness the phase for its own. (Apart from maybe the high elves and dreaded slan) we have access to forbidden lore and can utilise this in order to get some great spells.
I have been toying with light and giving my zombies I10 and ws10, that was funny watching dark elves going last and finding it hard to hit some brain eating bogey men.
I'm now going to look at metal, giving my skellies a 5+ scally skin, making them armour save 3+. And then casting the +1 to hit and vdm on them. Hopefully fingers crossed.
I have also been thinking of a beasty army, having a combat killer vamp in a huge block of wolves,with a forbidden lore vamp casting beast lore, as well as a second with metal giving them a 5+ scally skin. It would probably look a bit like funny.
Combat lord + 2 thralls forbidden lores.
500pts of zombies. 20 wolves,2 fell bat units(10)(the thralls in here) 2 vargualfs) bat swarms ect.
Anyway I digress.
So this is more of the kind of things I want to hear, not just general bitching at each other over whether ghouls give you a stiffy or not.

 

[fades]

I have been toying with light and giving my zombies I10 and ws10, that was funny watching dark elves going last and finding it hard to hit some brain eating bogey men.

Did something similar in a tournament last week, only with Helm of Commandment and Mindrazor though. But then again, 5+ Ward save against 14 wounds you save about 12 of them in average. It was quite funny since it was the only action on the table in the entire game. Could given me a 11-9, but he got a 11 on me instead with all those wardsaves and saved a few points om me not able to kill he's black guards with 40 zombies WS6 and S10 combined with a Varghulf in their flank.

Lore of Shadows does help a lot, Maisma is rock solid when it comes to help out your core with the helm of commandment, if you have WS7 most core will hit on 5's, as for special it is a bit more tricky but could work from time to time if you are lucky enough

 

[chefsdad]

I personally feel that Lore of Shadow is THE best lore in the rulebook. Str 10 units, and debuffing stats is amazing, and Pit goes without saying. The pendulum is nice in the right situation also.


I will say though, (and i know this isnt the intention of the OP) anything that makes skellies better, makes ghouls EVEN better. Just saying


Anyway, with regards to our other core:

Skellies can work, but need a little more support to kill stuff. The ability to take Banner of Hellfire is FANTASTIC, as gets those flaming attacks in the army (and magical to boot bye bye forest spirits!).

As i said, the best support lore at our disposal is Shadow. Hands Down. Even without mindrazor debuffing a units WS and then Helming them, or killing their Toughnes so its easier to wound, or killing their strength so that you can grind longer.

Dont disregard parry either, can make all the difference vs high strength.




Zombies do just suck though. I know that sounds very over opinionated and negative...but...theyre just...SO awful...SO awful.

They die in droves and require so much support to be just about on par with ghouls/skellies that its just not worth it. Half the amount of skellies will do better than the equivalent points in zombies. I dont even raise them any more.


Sorry, as i said it seems very negative of me to say that, but ive written lots of lists trying to make them work and i just cant get them to work effecitvely.


I will say that i am a competetive player to my core, so as much as the hobby beckons i think my lists writing will always be marred by that.

 

[Bravo_10]

Eh...Zombies have some uses. Redirecting is where they come in handy. Sure, frenzied units now can take a LD test to avoid charging things, but they're not necessarily guaranteed to succeed. For a sacrifice of 50 VP, you can put them at an odd angle and then give yourself a reeeealy nice shot at somebody's flank after they overrun the Zombos the next turn.

You can also tie up War Machine crews or small units of missile troops like Warplock Jezzails with a quick Raise Dead. And did they do away with table quarters in the 8th edition? 'Cuz a quick turn 6 RD spam was always a good way to get some free VP (or at least take away some of your opponent's) at the end of the game.

 

[rocdocta]

regarding zombies tho, they are a great psyche advantage. any good oppo knows that if they dont break a zombie block on the charge, chances are that the supporting vampires will keep them there forever and that blood thirster/hydra etc will be stuck in a 80 point unit for the game. And most likely wont munch through enough.

I use zombies to make sure that i engage what i want and avoid what i want.

vs str6, a zombie will survivie just as well as a ghoul can. sure they have ws crap, but really most ws2 things have really bad strength as well. Zombies are nice to throw a couple of extra dice if you dont have raise ghouls etc.

Also, mind razor, helm, danse = dead everything. I spring that little trick every once and a while. never fails to beat what ever its in combat with. they almost killed a blood thirster. damn ward saves!

 

[_Revan_]

Now that is something that Ghouls can never accomplish, you have to rely on your opponent rolling horribly for the same event to take place. Besides, its far more satisfying to win from your dice rolls than those of your opponent wink .

Why do you have to rely on your opponent rolling terribly for that to be the case? Mathhammer isn't about absolutes, but as you say, likelihood. Sure the exceptions are great and story points, but I think ghouls are not any less capable.

I'm sorry, what I meant by this comment was that my Skeleton Warriors only survived due to their Parry saves. This was because of me rolling an odds-defying amount of 6's.

The reason Crypt Ghouls could not do the same is because there is no save for you to roll. In this case, with Ghouls you are at the mercy of your opponents' dice (granted so are they). This, combined with the Parry being a Ward save allows them to save against (nearly) anything.

If your opponent rolls well, they will kill the Ghouls, with the current To Wound chart, Strength 1 hits can kill them. Yes, I agree that the extra point of Toughness will typically outweigh the saves. I definitely feel much more accomplished winning combat because I rolled spectacular saves on my Skeletons as opposed to my opponent rolling terribly when trying to wound my Ghouls

 

[chefsdad]

With regards to redirecting with zombies:

Its very difficult to do more than slow a unit down with them, as once the almost inevitably kill the zombies they may make a free reform. With frenzy being a ld test with reroll if near bsb, thats not a tactic i would rely on, when we have far better spells in the deck.

At 50pts a pop also for something which MIGHT pay off, its very dicey when you only need 100pts for a win.


Those are my views. I think if you want to take core thats not ghouls, gotta give it to the skellies over zombies.


Plus i think skellies are cooler than zombies (there i said it! ).

As with all my posts though i am more than happy to be proven wrong. Helps me learn

 

[King ChucaBoBo]

Eh...Zombies have some uses. Redirecting is where they come in handy. Sure, frenzied units now can take a LD test to avoid charging things, but they're not necessarily guaranteed to succeed. For a sacrifice of 50 VP, you can put them at an odd angle and then give yourself a reeeealy nice shot at somebody's flank after they overrun the Zombos the next turn.

Luckily you don't even need to rely on frenzy LD failures. I don't count on them with all the BSB rerolls around. If you place the zombies close enough against a wide enough unit like a horde that's getting ready to charge you you can defensively deflect them away. They basically have to voluntarily charge your zombies (LD test or not) closing the door to align with them and frenzy forces an over run off at an angle or turn/reform move and spend who knows how long getting in to position to do something. either way you just bought 2 turns minimum before they are in charging position again.

 

[Swissdictator]

I like a very Sylvanian feel. I was tinkering with the Coach before the new book.

I also like Skeletons and Grave Guard to fit the aforementioned feel. I generally loathe ghouls, I have since the new book came out and I barely fielded them before.

I like skeletons. I like the concept, the look, what I can do conversion wise, etc. I'd rather pay the same price, not 'lose' attacks in the subsequent ranks and have some armor. For my solid deadly block, yes I look to Grave Guard... but I don't always field them.

I do wish Zombies were not so poor in this edition, but I might still feel a unit (partially so I don't have to buy much more... but I could always add another wraith figure or two). As I love how my zombies look, so I want to show them off.... thus I'll probably field them. Plus, spamming a bunch of dice on them can really get their numbers up there... and the banner/musician can help. Support them with the Helm, and they're less poor.

So I'm going with my Sylvanian theme. I'm wondering how Drakenhoff Skeletons will do (with spears) supported by a Blood feeder or Tomb Blade Vamp.

 

[TobinRoss89]

I also wish zombies were just a little better this edition but hey when our next book comes out those lovable brain eating fools will be super cheap I have a feeling and who knows maybe even there pirate cousins will return. God what I would do for zombie pirates to come back.

 

[Aramoro]

I like a very Sylvanian feel. I was tinkering with the Coach before the new book.

Sylvanian Black Coach ?

Aramoro

 

[Swissdictator]

Not the Storm of Chaos one. Just like the Sylvanian theme as I love converting, and I love an undead Empire theme (Skeletons are converted 6E Empire spears, and 6E state troops).

I also had a coach being pulled by a screamer of tzeentch as it was coming out of a dive flying through there air (made a couple years before the current book ironically). I will need to repair that one, it might not be conventional, but it'd work!

 

[Burnanation]

While I agree that ghouls, on paper, look like the better choice. I hate the models and I don't have time/money to kit bash some that look good (keeping it in the GW range).

Secondly as it was stated above, that parry save can come in mighty handy. Last week I played a 3k game against Skaven. Through some awkward cat and mouse, I ended up having to charge a clan rat horde with the rats' general with a unit of 30 skellies and a vampire.

The skellies had the Wither spell cast on them (minus one to toughness for the game). I was not expecting it to go well. That was turn 2. Turn 6 (without raising a single skellie back, very poor magic phases) was when the final skeleton died. All the other units where busy doing whatever needed doing. So there they were all by themselves. They held for 4 turns, the vampire was there by himself when the rats got charged by 3 additional units, they broke and the vampire was the first I rolled to pursue and killed the leftover rats.

Admittedly I was extremely lucky when it came to armor and parry saves. Lucky or not, I wouldn't have had a shot with the ghouls.

I think it was also said above that ghouls have a role. Skeletons have several roles, and while they don't do a great job at any one of them, at least they have a shot.

 

[Swissdictator]

Skeletons are still very useful and have their pluses. Armor, and either spears or parry. I go with spears as that's how I have them modeled and I love the look.

Also Tomb Blade, if given to a fighty character, can help keep their numbers strong. In bigger games I might squeeze in a fighty character with it in there.

Though with even mild support, they can do decently. Be it the Helm, Vanhel's a Cart, or just a fighting character... the Skeletons can hold up and deal with opposing units. Plus some opponents might underestimate them too. Alternately, Drakenhoff in there (if you're confident enough in other units, or you're focusing on core) can make Skeletons a pain to kill off too...

 

[Lord Fear]

I'm sorry Burnanation, but why on earth would you have not had a chance with Ghouls? If you were lucky, then that luck translated to Ghouls would have meant fewer casualties caused against you, and more casualties caused by you. You wouldn't have been praising the Skeletons for only dying turn 6, you'd be praising the Ghouls for surviving.

Not meaning to pick on you, but every time someone has said "Oh yeah I rolled great with my parry saves, that's why Skeletons rock!" it's sheer delusion. Just run the numbers Against WS3 S3 opponents there's not much in it in terms of survivability, but the Ghouls have double the killing power. And every extra kill caused is one fewer crumble casualty taken.

Again, if you had a magic banner in play or some other trick that only Skeletons get, that's one thing. But if we're talking about a simple comparison, you'd have done far better with Ghouls. I've killed a Dark Elf Dragonlady with a Marauder champion before yet my Chaos Lord failed with the same opportunity, but that doesn't mean that the Marauder is the better fighter than the Chaos Lord...