Can 9th just come out already?

  • The masquerade of murder returns! A new game of Vampires Amongst Us has begun. Unmask the killers, trust no one, and try to survive the night. Find out more and sign up now!
Woodies are easy. They are real bad at actually hurting things and only win by picking off easy points and avoiding a fight or abusing movement to get a good wild rider flank.

If you want to beat them just use real big units and basically span the board and move forward. He won't be able to whittle your heal able units down by the time you've pushed him to the board edge and with no where to go he has to fight.
 
Hmm... What about Dark Elves and Doomfire Warlocks, and the 473 bolt throwers that can be taken, and all the 1+ peg characters? Or Wild Riders being fast cav, or all elves having ASF?? Banner of the World Dragon? No? None of these rules are utter tripe?
I actually think Banner of the World Dragon is decent design. Elves have no ability to anvil. Their worst match up is Daemons without that banner. You put that banner in, and Daemons now can't forward assault the elves. They have to use maneuvers, combined fronts, hexes and other advantages to take that unit down. They also can still deal with the unit the same way armies deal with units they can't easily take on, redirect or tarpit. Out deploy the thing. See, with BotWD, elves have are still 2+ or 3+ to be wounded by nearly everything in the daemon army but gain a 2+ save. Instead of giving the elves stay power with a high Toughness, they get it with a high ward save. What's the difference to things that can only wound our Crypt Horrors on a 6? That's where the CH gets its 2+ save so to speak, at its Toughness. Then look at the hexes daemons get in their lores and the brb ones they get, shadow, death, metal... the three gods... all have tools for hurting the elves further. Making them lose their precious stats and making it easier for daemons to harm them. Mix in with daemons moving and hitting right, and BotWD cracks.

The other thing I find, moderate level warhammer players do not understand fully how important deployment and movement is in the game, nor how to win a game without throwing their eggs in one basket. Deathstars are amateur and easily cracked. Advanced tactics know how to split forces, bog players down, hit weak points and use or counter guerrilla tactics. Wood elves, dark elves and tzeentch daemons employ guerrilla tactics and can be fairly slippery. The secret to dealing with them usually involves not reacting or trying to chase, but to create traps or know how to use your movement to ignore/neutralize their advantages.

If I were to make a top ten list of what is wrong/needs fixing with 8th edition, it would look like this:
  • Laser cannons need to go. Get some scattering in there.
  • Monsters should work like monstrous cavalry. Merge defensive profile and keep offensive separate. Templates only hit the model once, not twice.
  • To much mysterious terrain and difficult ground should matter more. Even not being able to march trough forests for example.
  • Buildings and Flammable targets should work the same, allowing flaming attacks to re-roll failed wounds against them
  • Nuke spells should be chillled out a smidge, lore of shadows more shadowy please
  • Magic Resistance should add to spell's casting value
  • miscast table should punish based on number of dice and get rid of broken concentration
  • unmodified leadership needs to be clear and easy
  • Get rid of double rout, charge redirect original fleeing unit blocks charge tricks
  • Fine tune steadfast so tactics can counter it somewhat but it still formidable and tone BSB Leadership rerolls. Balance the whole unbreakable, ItP, Fear, Terror, etc. Its a bit off right now with BSB's neutralizing the usefulness of those other rules.
Edit:#11) Some better scaling with Winds of Magic. But without losing the balance of current 8th's Winds either.
 
Last edited:
I just can't get behind 30k. No matter how good or balanced it is, it's generic marines against generic marines. 30k era legions are too homogenous, and heretic marines have none of the flavor of their 40k chaos marine counterparts (in terms of fluff & personality, not talking about rules here). I just find it so boring that my eyes cross, and frankly I preferred the Heresy as a time of half forgotten legends, and haven't especially enjoyed the way the Black Library coverage has been nailing everything down into 'this happened then to them' details that, imo, strip away the overall grandure. Same with the 30k game, honestly.

It's cool we'll be seeing a plastic heresy box set release, but I'll be giving it a pass, it's just not for me.

As for 9e, I'm not exactly upset, and mostly like the way they wrapped up the narrative (rules, on the other hand...)

But while I'm not upset over 9e, I'm not excited for it or holding my breath, either. I'll be getting what enjoyment I can out of end times stuff, and will treat 9e as a new game in its own right when it's released.
The whole point of the Horus Heresy is that the legions are on the same side and then they are engaged in a civil war, which leads to the breaking up of the legions and the formation of the chapters. So it makes sense that all of the legions look the same as they all have them same armor.
 
The US champion from last years Masters runs a Phoenix guard star with five characters. He would have won this year as well if the TK player didn't cheat. I would hardly call him a moderate player if he can beat the best in the nation.
High elves cannot function well outside of the death star builds aside from running a star dragon and even then they will still have something if a helm bus.
Nor would I call George O'Connel (General of Chaos) moderate. He invented the super herd in sixth edition, won major events with Beasts and is currently running a WoC star.

Aside from that, Najo, I like your post.
 
Najo, good list of improvements for 8e.

I would just like to add that I wish spears were better. It used to be spears doubled your attacks back in 6th and 7th, now they just add 50% more attacks (not inculding champ in calculations). Maybe something like if a non-infantry unit charges spears, the spears get +1S for the first turn. Spears should be defensive formations and hard to crack. Also, maybe a boost for charging cav (ASF on the charge?).

Boost to magic res is a good idea but what about dwarfs who are supposed to be one of the most magic resistance armies... how would they benefit?
 
  • Like
Reactions: najo
I've long said that spears should have +1 str and ASF when charged by cav in the front. Spears were made to take down cav charges historically.
I do like your addition of including any non infantry unit into the mix, Regis
 
The whole point of the Horus Heresy is that the legions are on the same side and then they are engaged in a civil war, which leads to the breaking up of the legions and the formation of the chapters. So it makes sense that all of the legions look the same as they all have them same armor.

Yes, I understand that is the point. I just don't like that point. A minis game with basically one faction (AM not withstanding) just is not for me.
 
Najo, good list of improvements for 8e.

I would just like to add that I wish spears were better. It used to be spears doubled your attacks back in 6th and 7th, now they just add 50% more attacks (not inculding champ in calculations). Maybe something like if a non-infantry unit charges spears, the spears get +1S for the first turn. Spears should be defensive formations and hard to crack. Also, maybe a boost for charging cav (ASF on the charge?).

Boost to magic res is a good idea but what about dwarfs who are supposed to be one of the most magic resistance armies... how would they benefit?
I think that any mounted unit charging an infantry unit with spears should take a single impact hit per model it comes into contact with at +1S. As you said it's defensive, but I think it should hurt just to charge them while mointed
 
It's really only the silverhelm / dragon prince BotWD buses that are a concern, since all of our good options for cutting through armour are magical. White lion deathstars are easy enough to redirect, or to hammer with crypt horrors or vargheists...or heck, even skeletons. You don't want your blender lord anywhere near that unit anyways given the number of high S attacks they're putting out.

Using the BotWD in an infantry unit is the better option in my opinion as it allows the Asur player to make use of special characters. A Lion bunker with Alarielle (in whatever incarnation) is pretty nasty. Throw in Banner of Avelorn and her spells are nigh unstoppable. She can blast through whatever is placed in front of her. Then there's Teclis, of course.
I personally feel it easier to deal with cav stars due to the lower number of wounds. I field a great weapon VL so armor doesn't matter to me.
 
  • Like
Reactions: najo
I personally never playd and never enjoed play special character IF NOT declared before as a special event.
Maybe I'm Mr. Nerdy but I just don't see how to fit into a friendly game an epic hero without having a shitload of motivation
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dragonet
I didn't play SCs until recently, either. They tend to be overcosted for what you get, and VC didn't have many worth a damn until ET: Nagash, besides. But I'm having fun with them now.
 
In sixth and seventh, the special characters were uber-characters and the characters had lots of magic item options in their army book. You could build nearly anything you wanted. In 8th, they slimmed down the magic items and put a lot of what would have been a power or magic item in a previous army book onto a special character. The special characters in 8th are for the most part, fairly balanced and add in features the armies wouldn't get otherwise.

As for my comment on Deathstars, there is degree of Deathstaring. Moderate level play is one deathstar with everything in it and then a bunch on dinky re-directors and minor support units (like warmachiens). That is poor play.

A good player has two-three solidly reliable units to control the game with and then the other units as support/tools. The army gains synergy when fielded. I haven't seen the armies of the players @Seneschal mentioned, but I be surprised if they were the one deathstar with just redirectors builds. lol, course now that I type it.... Sen, don't do this to me :P
 
Yes it makes sense to me that monsters would not like to charge into a wall of spears... This would give empire, ORC or VC players a real reason to take spear units.
I think the best solution to spears is:
  • Non-mounted Models with spears get +1 to Strength against charging enemy units in the first round of combat.
  • Mounted models with spears get +1 to Strength when charging in the first round of combat.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dragonet
  • Magic Resistance should add to spell's casting value

I like the idea of Magic Resistance adding to the spell's casting difficulty. Hadn't thought of that before. I also like the idea of it adding extra dispel dice. But adding or boosting a ward save has to go.

I really don't think a ward save should ever go below 4+ Maybe 3+ for a single character, but never 2+ and certainly not for an entire unit.
 
  • Like
Reactions: najo
I think if we're going to fiddle with the rules for spears, there needs to be distinction between the one-handed pointy sticks commonly used by infantry, that had no real impact on cavalry and the longer two handed spears that would have made a difference.
 
@najo
Heh, I just call it as it is, mate.

George O'Connel brought a WoC list to the Crossroads GT

6 characters in a tzeentch warrior bunker supported by a Tz war shrine and two Slaanesh chariots. That was all he fielded.
 
The US champion from last years Masters runs a Phoenix guard star with five characters. He would have won this year as well if the TK player didn't cheat. I would hardly call him a moderate player if he can beat the best in the nation.
High elves cannot function well outside of the death star builds aside from running a star dragon and even then they will still have something if a helm bus.
Nor would I call George O'Connel (General of Chaos) moderate. He invented the super herd in sixth edition, won major events with Beasts and is currently running a WoC star.

Aside from that, Najo, I like your post.


Wait ...what? I hope you have some evidence to back up the accusation of cheating. Care to explain?

Also, in reference to the suggestion for MR increasing the casting value, by how much would you increase it? I believe MR should make it harder to hurt a unit with magic, but simply adding +1-3 to the casting value basically just consumes another die from the casting pool. Sure it will make the 24+ casting value spells almost impossible, but they already were pretty much 6 dice monkey and pray spells.

Increasing Arnzipal's Black Horror from a 15 to an 18 doesn't impact the difficulty, it just reduces the other things you can do that round. You are still losing that unit, or a good chunk of it.

Things I feel strongly about:

- Fixing Fear/ITP/Terror. The huge prevalence of ITP makes fear a virtually useless ability. And Terror is the laughing stock of what it once was. The scaling Fear - Terror relationship I think is fine, but either fear needs to be a next to no cost ability, or there need to be more armies and units susceptible to it. Aside from maybe Orcs and Goblins, Armies are either immune to fear thanks to high leadership, or through ITP. And the argument could be made that the one of the best core choices for O&G is Savage Orcs which are ITP.

- Cannons. Cannons offer no counter play. If you have a cannon, you roll some dice and your opponent picks up models. He has no option get away from it. His best hope is that there is a huge building on the board to block line of sight. But with the size of bases (for monsters in particular) these days, that is nearly impossible. Honestly if GW were really concerned about balancing things out in their game like this, they could take a few pointers from video game developers. If you read through their patch notes, especially for the larger games like MMOs and LoL, etc. you will see that oppressive mechanics get phased out, because they remove the enjoyment of the game. Oppressive mechanics in a game are mechanics that offer no counter play. They often make the game feel like a single player game because it doesn't matter what your opponent does, you just do your thing and achieve what you wanted.

It is fine that there are things that hard counter monsters. Monsters are tough and can really run away with a game if you don't have anything to deal with them. But a game full of hard counters makes for a game with little variety and becomes stale. Adding scatter to the cannon, while it might make it more palatable if it hits (since the chances are reduced) but do not change the lack of counterplay. Putting in a mechanic that allows the opponent to do something to try and mitigate the effect of a cannon would go a long way towards improving on the aspect of play that cannons bring to the game. Examples of counter play include things like Hard cover (ok, if you want to shoot at my expensive but vulnerable unit, its going to be harder to hit me. Or you can choose to shoot my intervening unit and shoot less expensive things), tests to shoot (similar to the coven throne), the dispel mechanics in magic ( I know I have so many dice so I can choose to dispel the spell I want to ensure you don't cast) etc. Heck even a save (armor, ward, whatever) can be a form of counter play, because at least you feel like you have a chance to do something to stop your opponent.

- Test or die. I understand the test or die mechanics were put in to encourage people away from death stars, but they sort of failed to do that. Instead we have this mechanic that again largely lacks counter play. Sure magic spells (the largest source of test or die mechanics) can be dispelled, but not with irresistible force. I am fine with mechanics that threaten large units. There should be a mechanic to make that not the OP way to go. There should a counter to someone's deathstar. But again it should not be I roll some dice, you pick up models. Maybe changing test or die spells to things like a large volume of high strength (5-7 range, not 10) hits, reducing armor, but allowing for a mechanic that gives the defender a chance to mitigate the loss, or perhaps some other way where through movement, or army selection, or whatever so that he can reduce the risk to his units. Maybe a mechanic where the unit takes a 2 str x hits per model in the unit where X = 10 - average strength of the unit. So a str 3 unit would be hit with 2 str 6 hits per model, or something similar. (Just spitballing here, please don't crucify the message based on a half assed example of an alternative).

-----------

I am not sold on changing the 'double rout' mechanic as you call it. I think advanced tactics to hold a frenzied or death start unit in place are good. With the random movement of a flee, it will not always work so it's tricky to get off. However using a similar tactic with skirmishers who become unchargable (because they have to form up base to base when a charge is declared at them, which might cause their profile to move out of LOS for the charging unit) has to go. Maybe the double flee mechanics should go, but I certainly don't think they are necessarily over the top.

Overall I mostly agree with you Najo, excellent post.
 
  • Like
Reactions: najo
There are two things that mitigate Death Stars (the worse symptom of 8th, in my opinion): Unit size caps and half points for halfway destroyed units.

Both of those existed in 6th Edition. Changing unit caps requires adjusting the army books and picking which units need a cap, but half victory points for units that were brought below half their starting size is a simple fix that works across the board. And while it doesn't prevent your opponent from fielding a DS, it would mean that the 700 point, 60-man unit that you spent the entire game reducing to 10 men doesn't reward you with nothing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dragonet
I am not sold on changing the 'double rout' mechanic as you call it. I think advanced tactics to hold a frenzied or death start unit in place are good. With the random movement of a flee, it will not always work so it's tricky to get off. However using a similar tactic with skirmishers who become unchargable (because they have to form up base to base when a charge is declared at them, which might cause their profile to move out of LOS for the charging unit) has to go. Maybe the double flee mechanics should go, but I certainly don't think they are necessarily over the top.

Overall I mostly agree with you Najo, excellent post.

The double-flee is a very gamey mechanic that is counter-intuitive and takes away from the enjoyment of the game. If my unit rolls high enough to impact the enemy that is right in front of them, but is unable to make a charge because of a counter-intuitive glitch in the rules, than that is something that needs to go, IMO.
 
The double-flee is a very gamey mechanic that is counter-intuitive and takes away from the enjoyment of the game. If my unit rolls high enough to impact the enemy that is right in front of them, but is unable to make a charge because of a counter-intuitive glitch in the rules, than that is something that needs to go, IMO.

Is it really all that different than a pawn that finds itself past a piece on the board and cannot move diagonally backwards to take the piece?
 
Wait ...what? I hope you have some evidence to back up the accusation of cheating. Care to explain?

Also, in reference to the suggestion for MR increasing the casting value, by how much would you increase it? I believe MR should make it harder to hurt a unit with magic, but simply adding +1-3 to the casting value basically just consumes another die from the casting pool. Sure it will make the 24+ casting value spells almost impossible, but they already were pretty much 6 dice monkey and pray spells.

Increasing Arnzipal's Black Horror from a 15 to an 18 doesn't impact the difficulty, it just reduces the other things you can do that round. You are still losing that unit, or a good chunk of it.

Things I feel strongly about:

- Fixing Fear/ITP/Terror. The huge prevalence of ITP makes fear a virtually useless ability. And Terror is the laughing stock of what it once was. The scaling Fear - Terror relationship I think is fine, but either fear needs to be a next to no cost ability, or there need to be more armies and units susceptible to it. Aside from maybe Orcs and Goblins, Armies are either immune to fear thanks to high leadership, or through ITP. And the argument could be made that the one of the best core choices for O&G is Savage Orcs which are ITP.

- Cannons. Cannons offer no counter play. If you have a cannon, you roll some dice and your opponent picks up models. He has no option get away from it. His best hope is that there is a huge building on the board to block line of sight. But with the size of bases (for monsters in particular) these days, that is nearly impossible. Honestly if GW were really concerned about balancing things out in their game like this, they could take a few pointers from video game developers. If you read through their patch notes, especially for the larger games like MMOs and LoL, etc. you will see that oppressive mechanics get phased out, because they remove the enjoyment of the game. Oppressive mechanics in a game are mechanics that offer no counter play. They often make the game feel like a single player game because it doesn't matter what your opponent does, you just do your thing and achieve what you wanted.

It is fine that there are things that hard counter monsters. Monsters are tough and can really run away with a game if you don't have anything to deal with them. But a game full of hard counters makes for a game with little variety and becomes stale. Adding scatter to the cannon, while it might make it more palatable if it hits (since the chances are reduced) but do not change the lack of counterplay. Putting in a mechanic that allows the opponent to do something to try and mitigate the effect of a cannon would go a long way towards improving on the aspect of play that cannons bring to the game. Examples of counter play include things like Hard cover (ok, if you want to shoot at my expensive but vulnerable unit, its going to be harder to hit me. Or you can choose to shoot my intervening unit and shoot less expensive things), tests to shoot (similar to the coven throne), the dispel mechanics in magic ( I know I have so many dice so I can choose to dispel the spell I want to ensure you don't cast) etc. Heck even a save (armor, ward, whatever) can be a form of counter play, because at least you feel like you have a chance to do something to stop your opponent.

- Test or die. I understand the test or die mechanics were put in to encourage people away from death stars, but they sort of failed to do that. Instead we have this mechanic that again largely lacks counter play. Sure magic spells (the largest source of test or die mechanics) can be dispelled, but not with irresistible force. I am fine with mechanics that threaten large units. There should be a mechanic to make that not the OP way to go. There should a counter to someone's deathstar. But again it should not be I roll some dice, you pick up models. Maybe changing test or die spells to things like a large volume of high strength (5-7 range, not 10) hits, reducing armor, but allowing for a mechanic that gives the defender a chance to mitigate the loss, or perhaps some other way where through movement, or army selection, or whatever so that he can reduce the risk to his units. Maybe a mechanic where the unit takes a 2 str x hits per model in the unit where X = 10 - average strength of the unit. So a str 3 unit would be hit with 2 str 6 hits per model, or something similar. (Just spitballing here, please don't crucify the message based on a half assed example of an alternative).

-----------

I am not sold on changing the 'double rout' mechanic as you call it. I think advanced tactics to hold a frenzied or death start unit in place are good. With the random movement of a flee, it will not always work so it's tricky to get off. However using a similar tactic with skirmishers who become unchargable (because they have to form up base to base when a charge is declared at them, which might cause their profile to move out of LOS for the charging unit) has to go. Maybe the double flee mechanics should go, but I certainly don't think they are necessarily over the top.

Overall I mostly agree with you Najo, excellent post.
I agree that fear and terror should matter more. That's why I suggest toning down BSB rerolls. You could add in fear tests auto fail when the enemy causing fear is steadfast.

I agree on the counter play points. I think the solution is to work in cover from other troops and terrain some how. Like cannons hit a model and then bounce from there. So you could mess with cannons by putting intervening models in the way.

I agree with the test or die effects too. Either allow ward saves or have them roll to wound /kill you, then you test to negate the wound. It puts in another layer.

As for MR adding to casting values, it is enough to draw out extra dice, which over all weakens the magic phase. I think that is huge. Personally, leave in the ward save too.
 

About us

  • Our community has been around for many years and pride ourselves on offering unbiased, critical discussion among people of all different backgrounds. We are working every day to make sure our community is one of the best.

Quick Navigation

User Menu