All the rumours have had GW saying "don't think of this as 9th ed" and if these rumours are true then that really will be the case. Because that isn't Warhammer. I don't know what it is, but it's not Warhammer
Age of sigmar
- Thread starter El Syf
- Start date
-
The masquerade of murder returns! A new game of Vampires Amongst Us has begun. Unmask the killers, trust no one, and try to survive the night. Find out more and sign up now!
Infernal Skull
Wight King
This really sounds like total BS, or a complete stand-alone game.
Maybe WFB 8th/ET will continue as-is and there will also be the Age of Sigmar skirmish game set in this new post-ET world. Then, maybe after the plot of AoS has played out resulting in a "rebirth" of the old world we'll get a proper 9th Edition for Warhammer.
Maybe WFB 8th/ET will continue as-is and there will also be the Age of Sigmar skirmish game set in this new post-ET world. Then, maybe after the plot of AoS has played out resulting in a "rebirth" of the old world we'll get a proper 9th Edition for Warhammer.
I don't think regiment scale battles are unpopular. It's just not the miniature product GW has been selling for the last several years. When the plastic regiment boxes were first released at affordable prices, with 16 to 20 models in them when 16 to 20 models actually constituted a legitimate unit size? That was selling models for a battle game. But now models are sold in boxes of 10, at high prices (high, but not unreasonable for the quality of model on an individual basis), when unit sizes tend more towards 30.
They've been selling models priced and packaged and crafted for a skirmish scale game for the past five years at least. No wonder their battle game went under. Battle games require design to prioritize low cost, and minimal detail (to make painting a hundred models more tolerable). Skirmish games prioritize instead quality of individual models, and allow individual model price to be higher since model count is lower. That's the product GW sells, that's the product they've wanted to sell for a while, but it doesn't work if the game rules don't match that design philosophy.
I would have preferred the design philosophy to change to match the battle scale game rules, since I already have plenty of great skirmish scale games to choose from and warhammer fantasy was kind of the only battle game in town. But it looks like GW is deciding to go the other way.
And no, the ability to field more models or push loose bases together into formation does not make a skirmish game into a battle game. You can play huge, 100 point games of war machine, and the game has shield wall formations and such. That doesn't make it a battle game.
They've been selling models priced and packaged and crafted for a skirmish scale game for the past five years at least. No wonder their battle game went under. Battle games require design to prioritize low cost, and minimal detail (to make painting a hundred models more tolerable). Skirmish games prioritize instead quality of individual models, and allow individual model price to be higher since model count is lower. That's the product GW sells, that's the product they've wanted to sell for a while, but it doesn't work if the game rules don't match that design philosophy.
I would have preferred the design philosophy to change to match the battle scale game rules, since I already have plenty of great skirmish scale games to choose from and warhammer fantasy was kind of the only battle game in town. But it looks like GW is deciding to go the other way.
And no, the ability to field more models or push loose bases together into formation does not make a skirmish game into a battle game. You can play huge, 100 point games of war machine, and the game has shield wall formations and such. That doesn't make it a battle game.
Infernal Skull
Wight King
10 models is still a better stretch than having to buy them 2 per blister pack. (Old metal zombies and skeletons, anyone?) They eventually went to the 16-20 man plastic boxes, which was the hayday of Fantasy.
I think they just couldn't maintain the price point and increase the quality of the miniatures. At today's standard, a 20 man box would be around $80-$100. So it's the question of sticker shock, would people rather buy 20 at $90 or 10 at $45? I know it's the same thing in the long run, but people are more likely to willingly drop $45 twice, than $90 in one shot.
But then we have the current Skaven Clanrat regiment with 20 models for $35. So, who knows...
I think they just couldn't maintain the price point and increase the quality of the miniatures. At today's standard, a 20 man box would be around $80-$100. So it's the question of sticker shock, would people rather buy 20 at $90 or 10 at $45? I know it's the same thing in the long run, but people are more likely to willingly drop $45 twice, than $90 in one shot.
But then we have the current Skaven Clanrat regiment with 20 models for $35. So, who knows...
Pirate Robot Ninja of Death
Vampire Thrall
WHFB's slow decline has little to do with the popularity of mass battle games, and much more to do with how big a chunk GW expects customers to chew off at once. You don't get a playable WHFB army until you've spent like $400 and painted 60+ models. That's super onerous for a new player.
An entry-level skirmish game is just what the community needs.
As for the rumours, I absolutely welcome the fluff changes. If true, it represents a world that is much more malleable, much easier to insert your own narratives into or play games against friends that feel like they fit the fluff without having to constrain who plays what armies. "Sigmarites" are the good guys, but everyone else in the world has reason to battle against them. Chaos are the bad guys, but not *SO* bad that every time they show up the entire world is at stake - the main reason the WHFB Old World was frozen at 5 minutes to midnight for 20 bloody years.
An entry-level skirmish game is just what the community needs.
As for the rumours, I absolutely welcome the fluff changes. If true, it represents a world that is much more malleable, much easier to insert your own narratives into or play games against friends that feel like they fit the fluff without having to constrain who plays what armies. "Sigmarites" are the good guys, but everyone else in the world has reason to battle against them. Chaos are the bad guys, but not *SO* bad that every time they show up the entire world is at stake - the main reason the WHFB Old World was frozen at 5 minutes to midnight for 20 bloody years.
IoB Clannies go for about a dollar a rat on ebay. It's a glorious thing for Skaven players like me. But remember, most rat players sit on something like 300+ infantry models alone, so we need every discount we can get.
And I am wondering here if it would become a nightmare to look for boxes of units with square bases. If they start to sell them on rounds, it would get increasingly difficult to get something fitting an old army. Especially when we are talking about big monsters and such stuff.
Also, @Pirate Robot Ninja of Death - you reminded mi about those 'sigmarites'. I really hope they aren't just Not-space-marines. Fantasy so far is good for not having a bland faction of blank, default good guys that everyone seems to be fielding.
But all in all, I believe, that it all be manageable. It can't be THAT bad.
Also, @Pirate Robot Ninja of Death - you reminded mi about those 'sigmarites'. I really hope they aren't just Not-space-marines. Fantasy so far is good for not having a bland faction of blank, default good guys that everyone seems to be fielding.
But all in all, I believe, that it all be manageable. It can't be THAT bad.
People aren't completely foolish. They won't buy 20 at $90 or 10 at $45 if they need 200 to play the game.
The prices of GW models are very comperable to other skirmish games, and the quality is, in my opinion anyway, superior. But when you're painting model 28 in a unit, that extra detail is just more hassle for you, with no reward since nobody sees model 28 in a block anyway, and the premium you're paying for that extra quality is wasted. Mantic has the right mindset for battle games - you're not selling individual models, you're selling units. Cheapest passable models with only the most essential details is the goal. GW doesn't want to be in that business, and why would they? Designers are cheap, raw materials are expensive.
The prices of GW models are very comperable to other skirmish games, and the quality is, in my opinion anyway, superior. But when you're painting model 28 in a unit, that extra detail is just more hassle for you, with no reward since nobody sees model 28 in a block anyway, and the premium you're paying for that extra quality is wasted. Mantic has the right mindset for battle games - you're not selling individual models, you're selling units. Cheapest passable models with only the most essential details is the goal. GW doesn't want to be in that business, and why would they? Designers are cheap, raw materials are expensive.
Last edited:
The problem with an 'entry level' game and a regular battle game is that new players want to play the 'proper' game, not just the introductory game. And if the 'proper' game still requires hundreds and hundreds of dollars and hundreds and hundreds of models (depending on your army, I know my VC has something like 200 models) then new players are still faced with the same problem they have now, and all this End Times and Age of Sigmar nonsense has been a waste of time.
I don't think GW will intentionally waste their time.
I think large, regimental battles with hundreds of miniatures a side will be a thing of the past. I think they will be for special occasions ala Apocalypse for 40K or Epic Play for X Wing. Something you do every once in a while, rather than every week at the club. I think this skirmish game will be the new standard, not just an introductory game system to ween people onto the larger battles.
And all this talk about multiple worlds and portals and stuff? God it sounds awful. Please let it not be true.
I don't think GW will intentionally waste their time.
I think large, regimental battles with hundreds of miniatures a side will be a thing of the past. I think they will be for special occasions ala Apocalypse for 40K or Epic Play for X Wing. Something you do every once in a while, rather than every week at the club. I think this skirmish game will be the new standard, not just an introductory game system to ween people onto the larger battles.
And all this talk about multiple worlds and portals and stuff? God it sounds awful. Please let it not be true.
This is my impression as well. Not that such things won't be possible, but the game won't be built for it. Much as 40k or Warmahordes aren't really designed for games of hundreds of models per side.
I'm impressed GW have kept pictures from leaking yet. Although surely with a new game getting loads of pics and information out would be a good idea? But hey.
There's also a nasty rumour that undead will just be a hired help rather than a faction in its own right.
hopefully for our sakes this does turn out to be just a rumour, I'm not really interested in collecting another army just to be able to use mine as a bit on the side.
There's also a nasty rumour that undead will just be a hired help rather than a faction in its own right.
hopefully for our sakes this does turn out to be just a rumour, I'm not really interested in collecting another army just to be able to use mine as a bit on the side.
Hellion Nox
Grave Guard
I'm impressed GW have kept pictures from leaking yet. Although surely with a new game getting loads of pics and information out would be a good idea? But hey.
There's also a nasty rumour that undead will just be a hired help rather than a faction in its own right.
2 reasons why this won't happen.
- Undead have always been a major force in any fantasy world. (much like orcs, elves, humans and dwarves)
- Nobody "hires" undead.
But people do animate them, and in a world where undead aren't inherently taboo, anyone might do so.
The current rumor, though, salty though it is, implies that there would be no factions at all, just a bunch of loosely related concepts, with the enforcement of thematic teams left up to the sensibilities of players.
The current rumor, though, salty though it is, implies that there would be no factions at all, just a bunch of loosely related concepts, with the enforcement of thematic teams left up to the sensibilities of players.
Infernal Skull
Wight King
There's a reason Mordheim, Necromunda, and Blood Bowl (small skirmish games) are no longer supported by GW. Because, while they are all awesome games, they are a dead end from a sales perspective. A player buys the game, 10-20 models and they're done.
I get that maybe they want to attract new players by offering a smaller scale of Warhammer, but by turning Warhammer into a skirmish game and only offering the small scale option, they would be robbing themselves of the potential of future sales that would come from playing an army-scale game.
I seriously doubt that we will see the end of the army-scale game. My prediction is that Age of Sigmar will just be a stand alone game, and Warhammer: Fantasy Battles will continue mostly as-is.
I get that maybe they want to attract new players by offering a smaller scale of Warhammer, but by turning Warhammer into a skirmish game and only offering the small scale option, they would be robbing themselves of the potential of future sales that would come from playing an army-scale game.
I seriously doubt that we will see the end of the army-scale game. My prediction is that Age of Sigmar will just be a stand alone game, and Warhammer: Fantasy Battles will continue mostly as-is.
Either Harry or Hastings, maybe both, over on warseer have stated some time shortly after this intro box on the 11th the full rules will drop allowing for larger mass battle games, although I wouldn't be surprised to find that point values increase so you need less models for a large army, especially if the really old rumors that elite infantry and cav were getting at least two wound a pop is true, save hitting power in the unit with less wound counters in the back
But if they allow free mixing of all armies with all armies they could make people want to seek alternative units and options. Even more if every new thing they release is shiny and powerful in combat.
It's not like I would like that, just sayin' that's possible
They rely greatly on impulse buyers. If someone finds a leaked picture before he is able to buy it, he can change his mind during this time. Leaking pictures won't help them
Making already big armies of seasoned collectors needing to be even bigger! That could be the case indeed..
Who said 10 to 20? 30 to 50 loose models is still more skirmish than battle, and that's about the scale 40k runs, which makes bank for GW, while fantasy, the poster child for the 'you need to buy hundreds of models' design philosophy, failed so hard it literally collapsed in on itself and died like an overripe star.
Infernal Skull
Wight King
10 to 20 models is the size of a Mordheim warband, Necromunda gang, or Blood Bowl team. 30 to 50 models is still small for a battle game. That's two or three 15-man units and some characters, war machines, chariots, or whatnot.
At the same time, offering a skirmish game AND a mass battle game entirely defeats the purpose, since no one will want to play the skirmish game and no one can afford to play the mass battle game.
That's the main problem that WHFB has at the moment. No one can afford the $600+ needed to start a new army. And the people that already have large armies, don't need to buy any more models. WHFB has been suffering dwindling sales and support as a result of this for a long time.
I think GW have realised that it's better to have 10 players with 10 models each than 1 player with 100 models, and the new game will reflect that.
I don't think it will be the end of mass battles. But I think mass battles will be an afterthought to the main focus of the game, which will be a skirmish style game. IMO. They can't afford for WHFB to continue mostly as-is, because as-is, WHFB is failing. It needs a reboot, and that's been the entire purpose of the End Times marketing strategy. Give the existing players a send-off that they can enjoy, and put them in a good frame of mind for 9th edition, which will be a ground-up reboot of the old game.
Eternal flitter
Ghoul
And ultimately, those players, like many of us posting here, who have large armies maybe have to accept that the new game might not be aimed at us as the target demographic. The end times material which lore-wise was really aimed at the vets was possibly a mechanism to sweeten the deal into the new edition.
I'm certain that was the main point of it. To foster a positive mindset to encourage old players to adopt the new edition.
Eternal flitter
Ghoul
And it's crazy to think that at 20 I'm putting myself more in the old/vets side of the debate.
Honestly though, lower model count would not be a bad thing, but what's got my local group worried is the potential loss of mass battles as the core idea of WHFB.
Honestly though, lower model count would not be a bad thing, but what's got my local group worried is the potential loss of mass battles as the core idea of WHFB.
Thing is we still know absolutely nothing for sure. I'm willing to believe Hastings and Harry since they have both been really reliable with rumors so far. The leaked rules however I have a hard time with, especially considering the so-called 40K 6th edition rules a couple of years back that turned out be complete and utter cowdung.
If the End-Times was a way to sweeten the deal it sure was a funny way of doing it. Oh all the background books and everything else you bought? Yeah we just blew everything up! Imagine somebody starting to play Total War Warhammer and thinking ' wow this background is so cool I'm gona play table-top'. Who's going to tell him or her that this particular setting was killed off!? I am going to play that game, shedding many manly tears...
Out of all the WHF players I know absolutely zero of them liked ET beyond book two or three. To be honest though we are all fluff players and also play WFRP 2nd edition every month. But damn we had fun with the Rise of Nagash and WHF felt reinvigorated again after four stale years. Then ET Khaine happened and we all hated the lore(or lack of it) and had a funny feeling that it was all really going to end. Well...damn!
I'd rather they just either rebooted the game completely(without killing off 30 years of fun lore) or dumped WHF altogether. I'm still playing all the Specialist Games so if WHF would be no longer supported it means little to me.
It wasn't the lore that killed the game it was poor business decisions and scaling up the game to ridiculous proportions. I mean imagine having to start an eight edition DE army, now look at the new DE Witches and tell me that is sound pricing...I am seeing the latter mistake now repeated with 40K. Bigger, MOAR etc. etc.
I'm still on the fence about AoS. If it's just a poor watered down version of WFB in terms of lore forget it. The rules have to be insane good for me to get into a skirmish-type game too. For skirmish games I've already got stuff like Bushido and Malifaux to keep me busy.
It's not the mass battles themselves people abhor, it is the price of getting into a GW game that is. No amount of lore-changing, re-branding etc. is going to change that. Top that off with the current life-span of rulebooks and you have a disaster waiting to happen.
If the End-Times was a way to sweeten the deal it sure was a funny way of doing it. Oh all the background books and everything else you bought? Yeah we just blew everything up! Imagine somebody starting to play Total War Warhammer and thinking ' wow this background is so cool I'm gona play table-top'. Who's going to tell him or her that this particular setting was killed off!? I am going to play that game, shedding many manly tears...
Out of all the WHF players I know absolutely zero of them liked ET beyond book two or three. To be honest though we are all fluff players and also play WFRP 2nd edition every month. But damn we had fun with the Rise of Nagash and WHF felt reinvigorated again after four stale years. Then ET Khaine happened and we all hated the lore(or lack of it) and had a funny feeling that it was all really going to end. Well...damn!
I'd rather they just either rebooted the game completely(without killing off 30 years of fun lore) or dumped WHF altogether. I'm still playing all the Specialist Games so if WHF would be no longer supported it means little to me.
It wasn't the lore that killed the game it was poor business decisions and scaling up the game to ridiculous proportions. I mean imagine having to start an eight edition DE army, now look at the new DE Witches and tell me that is sound pricing...I am seeing the latter mistake now repeated with 40K. Bigger, MOAR etc. etc.
I'm still on the fence about AoS. If it's just a poor watered down version of WFB in terms of lore forget it. The rules have to be insane good for me to get into a skirmish-type game too. For skirmish games I've already got stuff like Bushido and Malifaux to keep me busy.
It's not the mass battles themselves people abhor, it is the price of getting into a GW game that is. No amount of lore-changing, re-branding etc. is going to change that. Top that off with the current life-span of rulebooks and you have a disaster waiting to happen.
Very true.
I figure they were going to blow everything up anyway. They wanted factions that were more GW unique and less generic, to give WHFB a more identifiable brand rather than generic orcs, elves, dwarves, humans etc. Hence the new Sigmarites faction that is rumoured.
So if they're going to completely reboot and rebuild the background, how do they do it without alienating all the existing players? Even GW is smart enough to know that without a solid player base, it's much harder to get new people to commit to buying armies. If everyone dumped their armies en mass with the release of 9th edition, it would be the end of WHFB altogether and that's not what GW wants.
So how to retain the older players and reboot the game so that it can continue into the future?
Make the reboot into an enjoyable event that players can get behind and support.
Now, I'm still upset that they blew up the old world. But I'd be much more upset if they did it without some kind of end times support. If they just blew it up in a footnote in the 9th edition rulebook, or never even bothered to mention it at all and just started with a new world altogether.
Agreed. That's why I think mass battle games will be a thing of the past and the new 'standard' game will be some kind of skirmish game.