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Nicreap

Ghoul
Dec 2, 2014
187
Very true.



I figure they were going to blow everything up anyway. They wanted factions that were more GW unique and less generic, to give WHFB a more identifiable brand rather than generic orcs, elves, dwarves, humans etc. Hence the new Sigmarites faction that is rumoured.

So if they're going to completely reboot and rebuild the background, how do they do it without alienating all the existing players? Even GW is smart enough to know that without a solid player base, it's much harder to get new people to commit to buying armies. If everyone dumped their armies en mass with the release of 9th edition, it would be the end of WHFB altogether and that's not what GW wants.

So how to retain the older players and reboot the game so that it can continue into the future?

Make the reboot into an enjoyable event that players can get behind and support.

Now, I'm still upset that they blew up the old world. But I'd be much more upset if they did it without some kind of end times support. If they just blew it up in a footnote in the 9th edition rulebook, or never even bothered to mention it at all and just started with a new world altogether.



Agreed. That's why I think mass battle games will be a thing of the past and the new 'standard' game will be some kind of skirmish game.

I only started playing in 8th but the impression I got from older games, was previous editions were still mass battle but used much lower model counts than we see now, is there any reason gw couldn't be going back to the idea of those smaller model count editions, while changing the rules of 8 th to make the game more compatible with a smaller model count?

All we kind of know based on reliable rumor sources, it's that are of sigmar is a intro skirmish game, and later there will be a rule book for larger games, and it won't be the size of current war hammer, that doesn't mean we wont see a smaller masses battle game. Other wise why mention that sigmar is a skirmish game, if the entire game system is skirmish based.

If the play test rumor is true than 2000 points would be around 80 warriors of chaos models, and 120 at 3000
 

Banat

Varghulf
Jul 13, 2014
790
All the rumours have had GW saying "don't think of this as 9th ed" and if these rumours are true then that really will be the case. Because that isn't Warhammer. I don't know what it is, but it's not Warhammer


It is possible for both to be true.

The info I've heard suggests that Age of Sigmar will be a standalone game, but will herald the beginning of the Ninth Edition releases. So it won't be Ninth itself, a la Island of Blood = 8th, Age of Sigmar = 9th. But it WILL be the first of the major releases for Ninth Edition which will come out sometime down the line.

Apparently ALL of August's weekends are red weekends, which I find very suggestive indeed.
 

Archamedius

Grave Guard
Jul 25, 2014
265
At the same time, offering a skirmish game AND a mass battle game entirely defeats the purpose, since no one will want to play the skirmish game and no one can afford to play the mass battle game.

That's the main problem that WHFB has at the moment. No one can afford the $600+ needed to start a new army. And the people that already have large armies, don't need to buy any more models. WHFB has been suffering dwindling sales and support as a result of this for a long time.

I think this concept is misleading. Warhammer Fantasy is not the only game with a steep buy in from Games Workshop. Despite what people will tell you, it's easily $600+ for a proper 40k army. I know because I just sold off some old chaos/eldar/space marines and decided to turn the money into a Necron Army. I pointed out a basic 1750 point army (which is small these days for 40k) and it was $600. And before you argue that 40k can be played at smaller point values (like 500 points) the same can be said of Fantasy and people always shoot that argument down.

Fantasy is not the only cost prohibitive hobby GW puts out, so the argument that Fantasy is failing because of buy in cost is also unfortunately false.
 
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Demian

Vampire Count
Oct 28, 2011
1,245
The points cost is directly related to the game board's length, I just noticed this.

What is the point of having a 48" x 72" board if you're only going to field stuff that fits in 1/3 of the whole table?

Some Units may never get to see combat considering their 4" base movement. If the board's length doesn't change, the scale of the battles should be the same.

Also to consider:

If units become reduced in size (ie: max 20 - 25 guys per regimental Unit), then the Lone models will have an easier time dealing with them, as they only need to kill less models until they break a unit. I liked this aspect from 8th, that a single monster would take ages killing a 40-man sized unit, and would probably waste his time (even with unstable zombies, which died faster).

So... this speculation is gameplay vs business plan (sale costs, storage, etc)

What will piss us off, is if they have to acomodate the rules to their business plan, making the game suffer, but their sales maintain/increase.

Let's see what else we find until the final release and we have closure, haha.
 

Count michael

The Undead Sparky
May 17, 2010
791
Timaru
So since the crazy 40k orientated stuff has been done are there actual hard concrete leaks of exactly what is happening since with 40k you knew exactly what was in the codex and rules ages before the actual release???? hell there was even pages from the books online
 

Cela Shyish

Grave Guard
Dec 14, 2012
284
Dunno if anyone posted this http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/06/breaking-age-of-sigmar-pics-details.html

But it looks like white dwarf pages, I only skim read, there are no rules in there but if its true then it would dispel the rumours about end times characters being unusable and would end the idea that warhammer would be skirmish. From the look of it they want the games to be bigger. They specified that end times despite being epic in scale were only tiny battles compared to the events to come. I have no idea how reliable this is, but photos from a white dwarf explaining the concept of the age of sigmar should be a little more reliable than people claiming to have seen the rulebook.
 
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Nicreap

Ghoul
Dec 2, 2014
187
So since the crazy 40k orientated stuff has been done are there actual hard concrete leaks of exactly what is happening since with 40k you knew exactly what was in the codex and rules ages before the actual release???? hell there was even pages from the books online

Nope we are unlikely to see anything until next monday/tuesday when the white dwarf covering the preorder of Age of Sigmar gets leaked, and since it is supposed to basically be a starter set we will very likely have leaked pictures of miniatures but no information on rules or fluff.
 

Infernal Skull

Wight King
Apr 21, 2012
442
There was a rumor from a French forum that discusses learning to demo the new AoS game.
http://www.warhammer-forum.com/index.php?showtopic=232090&page=12

In a nutshell, he makes it sound like the game plays mostly the same (statline, combat, etc.) but that every unit can now adopt one of three formations: Tight, Square, or Loose, and that each has its own advantages and disadvantages.

If I'm not mistaken, that's how Warhammer Ancients plays, correct? So maybe going forward there won't be a differentiation between "skirmish" units and "ranked" units because everyone can do both?

Anyway, here's the full text from Pyro8's post. Obviously, I can't verify the validity of anything said below:

La semaine prochaine (warseer):


Sent to me as a rumor:

"A celebration of Warhammer will be a limited edition hardcover book with a look back at over 30 years of Warhammer. Lots of pictures of minis and classic illustrations as well as articles from the makers of the game."

So a fan service for veterans.


Je sais je sais faeit c'est pas fiable pour un sous mais bon vu le peu d'info qu'on a autant faire son propre avis sur cette grosse rumeurs:


via anonymous sources on Faeit 212
I think players should be doing a bit more to give current players more info, but as they don't seem to want to do that, I thought I'd weigh in with what I know.

I had to be taught how the new game works in order to teach it to potential players.

As this info comes from the intro game there may be some simplification of the rules that I am unaware of, as you don't want to overload a newbie with too much info.

Anyway, on with what I know:

Age of Sigmar offers a skirmish-level fantasy game, he did not know whether it would be expanded to a mass-battle game later but he thought it would.

Players take control over several small units, organised into loose groups. The models are on round bases. He mentioned that at least at our location, people can use square bases if they want to, in fact with the new unit formation rules it might be slightly easier to use squares.

Units can choose how loose their units form up, either very loose (think 8th ed skirmisher loose) with benefits to movement and defense against shooting, tight, or square.

Tight allows for more maneuvers than square, but is less maneuverable than loose. However, if you receive a charge in tight formation you're better off in CC than if you received it in Skirmish.

Square offers almost no maneuverability, you can only move slowly forward. However, if you receive a charge in Square formation then you're better off in CC than if you received it in Tight or Skirmish formation.

One of the units in the intro game (the Chosen of Sigmar) can elect to change their formation when someone declares a charge against them as long as they pass a Ld check (base Ld 8 so it's fairly easy, hero had Ld 9)

The only real benefit to receiving a charge in Skirmish formation (and there are a ton of negatives - you don't get a bonus from your numbers, only the models in base contact with the enemy can strike (see below), and you can't parry) is that the enemy don't get the bonus for charging you in your flank/rear, since the skirmish formation means you effectively don't have any.

A lot of the base rules are the same as in 8th ed fantasy. The same statline is there (M, WS, BS etc etc), armour works the same, shooting takes similar penalties (long range, soft cover, shooting at skirmishers etc), the difference is in the recommended level of play. CC works out in much the same way, highest I goes first, units in base contact with either an enemy model or a friendly model in base contact with an enemy model get to strike, though only the former get to use all their attacks. Casualties are removed from the back, as per usual. Different kinds of weapons (halberds, spears, etc) and their associated bonuses weren't brought up since the models involved only used hand weapons. Hand weapon + shield still gives you a parry save though, as long as you received a charge (or charged yourself) in tight or square formation, and the attacks weren't coming from your flanks or rear.

GW is trying to push this to be played at the 1000-1500pt level. A lot of focus was put on the heroes leading each force, and leaders will have more impact on the game. Think LotR Strategy Battle Game and its Warband rules. He implied that leaders in general will be more expensive, but have more of an impact on the game. So a 1000pt force might be led by a 300pt hero who is absolutely the core of the force, and if they die the rest of the force is at a severe disadvantage. This goes double if the leader is killed in a challenge by the enemy leader.

On a personal note, the game seemed...fun. The choice between different types of formation provided a level of tactical flexibility that didn't exist in the old game, but required more forward thinking. Do you start in skirmish formation for more maneuverability, risking getting charged with no bonuses from your numbers? Or do you form up Tight and split the difference? Or do you make like a Dwarf and form up Square and just risk getting outflanked? Also, when the two leaders got into a challenge in the middle it was exciting - mine was faster but not as strong, hers was slower but more likely to do lasting damage. We stopped before one leader killed the other though.

Magic wasn't raised in the intro game, but once again I was told it hasn't hugely changed. Only thing I should mention is that, aside from some notable exceptions, wizards can't be leaders of a force.

On a background note - I was laughed at for about 10 straight minutes when I told her about the rumours of "Waaaghkin" led by an all-female caste of "Nigmos", though he was strangely silent when I mentioned Regalia.

From what little he did mention, the core races are all-but unchanged in their basic background. Humanity is represented by the Empire, with the Chosen of Sigmar being an auxiliary detachment that is often fielded alongside Empire forces. Orcs and Goblins are there, nothing about 'Nigmos' or whatever. Chaos is obviously there, in both Daemon and Warrior form, he didn't know anything about Beastmen. Lizardmen weren't mentioned, neither were Skaven, Elves were though. Elves are becoming a bit more like Space Marines in one specific aspect - they're all one race, but differentiated on the grounds of how they wage war, a bit like Chapter Tactics. High Elves will have 'Elf Tactics' that reflect their training and drilling, Dark Elves will have 'Elf Tactics' that reflect their cruelty and malice, and Wood Elves will have 'Elf Tactics' that reflect their reliance on hit-and-run attacks. I anticipate this means a single Elf book with basic troop units, some specific units for each type of Elf, and the rest of the differences will be in these 'Elf Tactics' and colour scheme etc.

I'm trying to remember anything else, the units were about 10-15 models each. The Chaos forces were comprised of a unit of 10 warriors, 15 marauders, 5 warhounds, and the chaos leader. The Chosen of Sigmar (being represented by Lizardmen models as the actual models are obviously currently unavailable) had 15 'warriors of light', 10 'hunters' with shortbows, and 10 'chosen', plus the leader.

It seemed a little unbalanced in the Chosen's favour, but my manager said that when you're introducing people to the game, although you let them pick, you talk up the Chosen more so that they're more likely to pick them and be the good guy. That way, although it looks fairly even, the Chosen have an advantage. Like other intro games that have come before it, it is intended to provide 2 good, though small, starting forces.

It was implied that both armies would need 2-3 boxes of troops added to them to get them to 'average game' size. This was obviously important because a key part of the intro game is not only selling the intro box, but also upselling the customer to get a couple more boxes for a bigger force.

Stat-line wise, though I wasn't told any specifics (this was more a matter of 'Okay so the Warriors of Light are in close combat with the Marauders, so you go first and hit on...') regarding statlines, this is a rough breakdown:
- Warriors of Light are a halfway point between marauders and Chaos Warriors, not as tough or as well armoured, but more skilled than marauders, they were hitting marauders on 3s and saving wounds on a 4+
- Chosen are basically Chaos Warriors, same armour save, they were hit on a 4+ and wounded on a 4+ by Chaos Warriors, saving on a 4+
- Hunters are skirmishing bowmen, their only unique aspect is that I think their bows are armour piercing. They were hitting stuff at long range (range 24") on 5s, wounding Chaos Warriors on 5s, but Chaos Warriors with shields were only saving on a 4+, instead of the 3+ they were saving on against the Hunters in close combat.
- Leader of the Chosen was basically the Chosen's statline with +1 to everything except Movement and Toughness. He had a sword that allowed him to re-roll failed hits against Chaos things.

I am using the current statlines for Chaos Warriors, Marauders etc in these estimations, and they are liable to change.

Anyway, that's all I can remember. I hope this is informative!
 
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Banat

Varghulf
Jul 13, 2014
790
There is a page not shown in either of the above links which says "Prepare for the Age of Sigmar!" and a near-full page picture of Nagash. So at least in that respect he was being the cover boy.

The info about the Chosen of Sigmar etc etc seems to be confirmed/backed up by the news that many of the Empire kits will be being pulled.
 

Sception

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Sep 23, 2009
2,252
I wouldn't bet worked up one way or the other about those rumors. The source has been consistently unreliable in the past.
 

Banat

Varghulf
Jul 13, 2014
790
Fantasy definitely needs to improve its young persons intake. as for child friendly that some.of the commenters were saying, first offing meant the text and the WAY it was written secondly 40k is very popular with the kids and look how grimdark IT is.

new chaos warrior and empire core troop models will be long awaited.
 

Banat

Varghulf
Jul 13, 2014
790
Island of Blood was what, £65? I can't imagine it will be much more expensive than that... if its a stand alone and NOT the new Ninth Edition boxed set then it MIGHT be closer to £100, although I've heard a lot of talk about the psychology of keeping the price at £95-£99, just UNDER that three digit bracket.
 

Sception

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Sep 23, 2009
2,252
Newest rumor is that there will be a new pdf of introductory rules, plus free pdfs of rules for prior armies, most likely something similar to ravening hordes, if any of you remember the 6e transition.

This supposedly based on a slip up from the German GW webpage posting something early by mistake (though sadly, not the pdfs themselves, just a page that links to them).

If true (and even with screen shots it might not be - that's a pretty easy thing to fake), that would support the 'no rulebook in the starter box' rumor we've heard from a couple (admittedly dubious) sources.

Free intro rules to try the game out would be a nice gesture from GW. We'll see.
 

Dragonet

Wight King
Feb 3, 2015
450
Bromley
I'd certainly appreciate rules mods for those of us who laid out on the 8e boxed set, the hardback, the limited edition fake leather doorstop, the regular and LE army books AND magic cards... Frankly rules and army mods on PDF are the only reason I'll even look at 9th, that is the gateway GW need to bring me and my models into the new game, otherwise I've got the perfect excuse to cut my losses and stick with 8th Edition.

The stuff they've done over the past few years - Space Hulk 3rd Ed, Dreadfleet, Execution Force, Mechanicum, End Times, and even 8th Ed itself with the massive leap forward in quality of books, templates &c, has made me do unspeakable things to my wallet! I've also found the Limited Edition sales pitch from GW lately, as well as similar strategies like Kickstarter, to be SO effective! I'm now the proud owner of an Imperial Fists Codex, and I can't even grumble, it's gorgeous! But £100, the shame of explaining that to the other half...

I expect whatever shape AoS and 9th take, it will be awesome because GW have got their eye in and are delivering top quality stuff, but it all costs money and in the absence of discipline I'm praying for an excuse not to spend any more, at least for a few weeks or so. Maybe once I cut the bank cards in half I can concentrate on modelling and playing with what I have!
 

Onlinemph

Zombie
Jun 9, 2015
2
Texas
awww_warseer_com_forums_attachment_php_e3531866c64921d6b65d80f2c6a4ef87._.jpg

Some of the new sigmarines.

I am torn on these guys. On one hand the models themselves are quite pretty, but they don't follow the look and feel of Empire whatsoever.

apbs_twimg_com_media_CIb2p34XAAAwZGE_jpg_large_.jpg

Some new chaos also.
 
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Majrenob

Zombie
Jul 17, 2014
36
Cool models, the Sigmarites with the wings and the Cav guy in particular are awesome. They do look alot like Space Marines for better or worse.
 

Nicreap

Ghoul
Dec 2, 2014
187
If that is the age of sigmar starter set, it debunks the guy who claimed to playtest the game, noone with anything close to crossbows in there
 

Alabaster427

Minister of Thriftiness
Dec 9, 2013
1,315
Both of those look they have way too much detail for me to even bother painting... tis a shame.
 

Sception

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Sep 23, 2009
2,252
This does fit the earliest rumors of the new human faction being 'good guy space marines' with little resemblance to either of the existing human factions. We can probably expect something similar for the undead.

As for the too much detail comment, I kind of already felt (and already stated on several occassions), that the detail on warhammer models was in general too much for a battle scale game. This game is hopefully aiming for something smaller scale, where you'd have time to lavish a lot of attention on each individual model.

Then again, this is many more models than we were expecting in this starter box, so that may not be the case. If the starter box is really meant to represent two full sized armies, then good on GW. If, on the other hand, the game still seems built around the assumption of 100+ models per side (though I can't imagine it will be, what with the round bases and all), then this game will crash and burn so fast and so hard....

At least some of these models seem usable in my CSM army with minimal fuss.


Worry worting aside, I do think these models look really cool, especially that monstrous mount the imperial hero is riding. Hopefully the free pdf trial rule rumor pans out, as I'm eager to kick the tires a bit.



EDIT: here's a thought, though. If vampire counts are no longer really a thing, what becomes of vampirecounts.net? does it jump to whatever undeadish faction may exist in AoS/9e, regradless of vampyric theme or lack there of? Does it stay in 8e, to wither on a dead vine? spread focus to undead / vampyric factions of other games?
 
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