Undying Scourge
Blood Knight
I just checked the site. They're still listed as being "finely detailed resin cast miniatures". They're finecast, not plastic. If they WERE plastic I'd probably buy some.
Age of sigmar
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I just checked the site. They're still listed as being "finely detailed resin cast miniatures". They're finecast, not plastic. If they WERE plastic I'd probably buy some.
Hellion Nox
Grave Guard
@Undying Scourge could you stop forcing your opinion down others throat. Whilest I remember seeing you being the biggest hater of age of sigmar a mere few pages ago. You've completely switched sides now and I salute you for that. Give others time to hate/try out the game for themselves and maybe they too will change their opinion.
Undying Scourge
Blood Knight
Why are you bringing that up now? There was already enough drama over it, stop continuing with it. But so what, it's not like what I said was that bad compared to other forums and websites, it was actually quite tame.
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Menkeroth
A Knight of Blood
Aye, and that's bad, they look very good, but this resin... So I decided to make them out of the imperial ReiksguardI just checked the site. They're still listed as being "finely detailed resin cast miniatures". They're finecast, not plastic. If they WERE plastic I'd probably buy some.
I just checked the site. They're still listed as being "finely detailed resin cast miniatures". They're finecast, not plastic. If they WERE plastic I'd probably buy some.
Fine cast is a type of plastic
Menkeroth
A Knight of Blood
No, it's not. It's resin, which is in some way a compromise between plastic and metal, but it's not the same.
Skittelz1981
Varghulf
Draykorinee
Grave Guard
Aye this has been my one salvation from people who sneer or mock the way I enjoy games, it was weird seeing it happen here.
Got my first aos game booked in! Not got a clue what I'm going to field.
@Skittelz1981 - yeah, that's sort of what I was talking about with balancing-by-wounds not really working. I mean, it's an extreme example - a more or less neutral list vs a pile of special characters from two different pre-factions and including the game's god of death - but even a game where players are trying to be somewhat fair are still going to suffer from this issue.
Draykorinee
Grave Guard
In fairness to AoS, he basically played a dick, a guy who just chucked in the most overpowered characters he could. I've seen better videos that show how bad some of these games have gone.
Hmmm so when deploying, if you see that much cheese hanging in the other side of the table (since deployment should happen unit by unit), and your opponent stops deploying stuff you could say:
"You have about 5 - 8 named characters there, all with more than 3 special rules each... wounds count is off" and just deploy your entire Warhammer Army, filling every inch of your zone with a gazillion models.
Then, let him choose a sudden death objective, and finally have the game.
At the end of it, agree to never include a super-condensed list .o.
Will think about a better solution here =(
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I've given thought to the above problem, and propose a better "patch" to fix this:
Well, since HERO units tend to have a better performance than their "regular" rank & file army, specially named HEROES, you could still play with a Wound count, but limiting the HERO wound count to up to... 20-25% of said wounds in a game.
I've seen that only the former "Core" units get to have a bonus based on their Unit size, while the former "Special" and "Rare" choices don't, so I'd preliminary say that non-HERO units should be well balanced between wounds. Besides, whoever goes and buys 8 Phoenixes just to take some sort of advantage here is the kind of customer that GW wants anyways, so...
What do you guys think?
"You have about 5 - 8 named characters there, all with more than 3 special rules each... wounds count is off" and just deploy your entire Warhammer Army, filling every inch of your zone with a gazillion models.
Then, let him choose a sudden death objective, and finally have the game.
At the end of it, agree to never include a super-condensed list .o.
Will think about a better solution here =(
---------------------------------------
I've given thought to the above problem, and propose a better "patch" to fix this:
Well, since HERO units tend to have a better performance than their "regular" rank & file army, specially named HEROES, you could still play with a Wound count, but limiting the HERO wound count to up to... 20-25% of said wounds in a game.
I've seen that only the former "Core" units get to have a bonus based on their Unit size, while the former "Special" and "Rare" choices don't, so I'd preliminary say that non-HERO units should be well balanced between wounds. Besides, whoever goes and buys 8 Phoenixes just to take some sort of advantage here is the kind of customer that GW wants anyways, so...
What do you guys think?
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Macarian
Vampire Insomniac
I like the idea alltough it's not entirely foolproof with the difference in power between normal and named characters. For now my gaming group has taken to a list building by consent approach. We build lists days in advance, discuss their relative power, change them and play when we feel the power difference is acceptable. It works out for now as a stop-gap measure to test the game itself.
For competitive closed list play, obviously we need a system that structures and formalises this process. Maybe GW will bring it to us in a future expansion, maybe the community has to do it themselves. I really don't worry about it because the community has proven itself to be capable of such feats with the different Comp systems.
Let's not forget, the game hasn't been out for a week, let baby Sigmar grow for a bit
For competitive closed list play, obviously we need a system that structures and formalises this process. Maybe GW will bring it to us in a future expansion, maybe the community has to do it themselves. I really don't worry about it because the community has proven itself to be capable of such feats with the different Comp systems.
Let's not forget, the game hasn't been out for a week, let baby Sigmar grow for a bit
Emicrania
Wight King
Draykorinee
Grave Guard
Thats not reality, thats someone gimping the system. He does have valid points outside of the obvious lack of sportmanship, but that is an example of how to take rules and remove any sense of fair play.
He was merely following the rules, even an extra house rule that isnt in them to be more fair than the actual rules.
Blame the rules, not someone following them.
Blame the rules, not someone following them.
Draykorinee
Grave Guard
They chose those rules, they made their own game up, and because of that, they had a ridiculously imbalanced game, its not reality (in reality it was the completely dick move of his opponent tbh)
Infernal Skull
Wight King
Could a game like this potentially attract players from the Warmachine/Hordes, or MTG circles, or people with a similar "the rules are the rules, go all-in or go home" mentality?
Think back about when people used to complain that taking three wraithlords was frowned upon, even though it was perfectly legal by the rules of army composition. In Warmachine, there is no such thing as a cheesy list. The strategy, in fact, is engineered around pulling off combos to assassinate your opponent's warcaster and win the game as quickly and as efficiently as possible. (In some tournaments there is even a "fastest caster kill" award.)
If anyone who is used to playing like that is going to be attracted to and play AoS, why would they be expected to not put together the the hardest list they can engineer?
Under the previous editions there were at least rules to prevent massive abuse, but some people still tried to game the system as much as possible. Now that those limits have been completely lifted, those players will either quit (which is bad for GW's bottom line, but good for the overall gaming experience, I think) or abuse it even further.
Think back about when people used to complain that taking three wraithlords was frowned upon, even though it was perfectly legal by the rules of army composition. In Warmachine, there is no such thing as a cheesy list. The strategy, in fact, is engineered around pulling off combos to assassinate your opponent's warcaster and win the game as quickly and as efficiently as possible. (In some tournaments there is even a "fastest caster kill" award.)
If anyone who is used to playing like that is going to be attracted to and play AoS, why would they be expected to not put together the the hardest list they can engineer?
Under the previous editions there were at least rules to prevent massive abuse, but some people still tried to game the system as much as possible. Now that those limits have been completely lifted, those players will either quit (which is bad for GW's bottom line, but good for the overall gaming experience, I think) or abuse it even further.
The rules of age of sigmar are bring anything you want. Which gives free realm to worse matchups than that one. It wasnt them altering the rules that allowed that matchup, without their alteration it could have been much worse!
The only extra rule was 100 wounds, which is more restrictivce than the base rules and which he followed. No talk was given to anything beyond that. So no, he was only following more restrictive rules than age of sigmar.
The only extra rule was 100 wounds, which is more restrictivce than the base rules and which he followed. No talk was given to anything beyond that. So no, he was only following more restrictive rules than age of sigmar.
Draykorinee
Grave Guard
Yeah, there are huge flaws, and I think even the most pro AoS fanboys right now will agree the lack of points just leads to a lack of balance and the need to have a player who won't push to gimp the system.
My only issue was that video is completely disingenuous, and quite frankly should be ignored.
My only issue was that video is completely disingenuous, and quite frankly should be ignored.
Draykorinee
Grave Guard
The game was more imbalanced because they had premade army lists, its supposed to be more organic, you see what they put down, you counter, its not AoS fault that people are bad sportsman.
Menkeroth
A Knight of Blood
Exactly. GW are too lazy to make proper rules, but it was always so, and is that too bad? Good people will always follow the rules they think are the most appropriate and logic and will always agree on how to play and how it should look. With enough imagination you can make interesting scenarios which could balance the rules and the game good and fair enough. In this regard the approach in counting not wounds but the number of units with some restrictions in them (20-40 for goblins or skaven and the like, 10-20 for elves or men and the like and 5-10 for Ogres and such) will be more sufficient, as points are too unreliable.
I thought the same tbh.
I actually kinda thought that the scenario of keeping thatunit alive in that house would have been pretty fun to play... you know if the other guy didn't bring a completely over powered list. When I test ran it the other day (Lizards v. Demons) we aimed to make a fairly balanced game and it worked pretty well!
At any rate, I just got an email. Apparently they're releasing an app to build armies. Maybe this will resolve the problems with making balanced lists?