Age of sigmar
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Oppenheimer
Varghulf
I got the starter kit and they do look very nice. The book inside references a ranged model that isn't included or even on the store yet. There also isn't a wizard anywhere in the starter set. So it'll mostly be melee (and a little bit of ranged with lizard breath and thrown hammer). Not my top priority to assemble right now. Mostly just wanted the books it included.
Menkeroth
A Knight of Blood
Oppenheimer
Varghulf
@Menkeroth Do i know spoilers? I also bought the Gates of Azyr book although I haven't read all of it yet. I can mark things in spoiler tags if you want to know something from the starter set I can try and answer it.
Not celestant. Castellan. Shouldn't have put a t. Castellan similar to how the blood knight champion is a kastellan. Like a dude in charge of a castle.
Menkeroth
A Knight of Blood
I'll be grateful for it. Just the general plot, it's interesting to see how the things are going.
Oppenheimer
Varghulf
OK. Here's the plot as I understand it. Don't have the book with me so can't remember the exact names of everything.
World ends. Sigmar survives. He and lots of souls that survived (not sure if they have any memories or not) live peacefully and demon free in a variety of realms (each based on a wind of magic). Eventually there is internal strife. Negash in particular causes discord as he wants more power than he has and disagrees with how sigmar rules. War erupts. Deamons arrive. Sigmar throws a hissy fit and barricades himself in the wind of heaven land. Demons pretty much destroy everything. Sigmar looks towards the world before time (aka the burning husk of 8e's land and finds Gal Maraz. He and the dwarf God Grugnir (?) use it to forge the Signarite armour. He steals worthy soldiers from the realms just before death to be trained and put in the armour. Just before the demons' have totally crushed the other relms he opens the Gates of Azyr (aka wind of heaven land) and his army fights back. The book takes place in the realm of fire so far.
My bad sorry
Are they mentioned in the starter set then?
They're in the big campaign book that's out this weekend. Their lantern either deals d3 mortal wounds to daemon units within range or heals d3 wounds to stormcast eternal units.
Its very similar to the lord relictors abilities with some subtle and important differences. The lord relictors are spells i believe? and the castellans are item abilities so both can be used along side your generals command ability.
There's a formation which has a relictor, castellan and celestant and if they're within an inch of each other they can cast a move called unstoppable wave or something. All units in nine inches take one mortal wound and MUST fall back/retreat.
Menkeroth
A Knight of Blood
Thank you! That seems pretty interesting. I hope it will be better along the road.
To be fair, I don't know how well that reflects the younger America. But certainly that is a fair representation of much of the repressed ones, or adults. I have no idea why people value the social avoidances they hold, but it sure is silly. I also know far too little about Europe to get half the "inside" jokes about torture and all the nations they talked about at the end of that. And I doubt a world history course would help, sounds like those are the kind of "not in the front pages" of history type things.
Well then, just a storyline-plot-point. I thought it was odd they'd feature those Slaaneshi dæmons in the new 75$ book they are releasing (They are pictured as the defense force in that one scenario). I'm glad at any rate, I always liked Slaanesh the best.
Holy.. yeah. I want to paint these Eternals and buy another box. Especially if I can find people to buy in half for the chaos (Which are awesome models, but I don't particularly like Khorne).
Uhwut. I was going to be confused, but it sounds like you're talking about a different model than I thought. But, how do you know the name of the new guy with a Lantern already? Was there some leak or information I just didn't read? (I did hardly read this weeks so far).
An interesting battle report vid featuring new sigmarines vs. old tomb kings. It's the first 'new vs old' game I've seen, and incorporates some other concerns people have had - armies that are the same-ish wounds but the elite army gets sudden death anyway because they have more wounds per guy, and use of that deep strikey formation on top of that.
Rolls were janky throughout, and some rules were missed (they forgot to roll for init on turn two) or interpreted in dubious manners (the way they handle pile ins), but all in all it was still a remarkably even game, and one that had a natural sort of narrative to it (I imagined it as the minions of Nagash infiltrating the realm of life while its defenders are busy fending off the forces of nurgle, and an elite strike team of Sigmar's finest teleports down in a desperate bid to destroy the cursed artifact they carry before it can corrupt the land).
The game was very close, with victory hinging on a single die roll for whether the lord relictor could peel off the casket's final wound with a lightning blast before being dragged down by tomb guard.
Still, the game is still somewhat shakey. double wounds of tomb guard seem more than a match in melee for sigmarine units, but skeletons are the same wounds as tomb guard, and if you swapped those guard out for skellies on a one-for-one basis I'm not sure the TK player would have ever had a chance, though the game might have worked without the sudden death conditions then. But as it was, without sudden death the sigmarines seemed completely overmatched, so just basing sudden death on wounds instead of models doesn't seem to work, either.
Again, just going by wounds doesn't work when comparing things like tomb guard to skeletons.
Regardless, in this particular case the game worked out very well, so all in all I think it's a pretty positive showing for the game, again despite it being new vs. old, and sudden death, and the deep strike formation.
EDIT: haha, whoops, forgot to link the video itself. fix'd.
Rolls were janky throughout, and some rules were missed (they forgot to roll for init on turn two) or interpreted in dubious manners (the way they handle pile ins), but all in all it was still a remarkably even game, and one that had a natural sort of narrative to it (I imagined it as the minions of Nagash infiltrating the realm of life while its defenders are busy fending off the forces of nurgle, and an elite strike team of Sigmar's finest teleports down in a desperate bid to destroy the cursed artifact they carry before it can corrupt the land).
The game was very close, with victory hinging on a single die roll for whether the lord relictor could peel off the casket's final wound with a lightning blast before being dragged down by tomb guard.
Still, the game is still somewhat shakey. double wounds of tomb guard seem more than a match in melee for sigmarine units, but skeletons are the same wounds as tomb guard, and if you swapped those guard out for skellies on a one-for-one basis I'm not sure the TK player would have ever had a chance, though the game might have worked without the sudden death conditions then. But as it was, without sudden death the sigmarines seemed completely overmatched, so just basing sudden death on wounds instead of models doesn't seem to work, either.
Again, just going by wounds doesn't work when comparing things like tomb guard to skeletons.
Regardless, in this particular case the game worked out very well, so all in all I think it's a pretty positive showing for the game, again despite it being new vs. old, and sudden death, and the deep strike formation.
EDIT: haha, whoops, forgot to link the video itself. fix'd.
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Pretty fun report to watch.
I don't know how much I disagree with how they did pile-ins though. I guess you could say you can't shift one way or the other, but honestly it's hard to not allow some leeway, and at least they are not directly "walking away" from any model they are directly touching (Based on bases, as per the rules totally don't care but most players will of course continue to anyways). But yeah, it's an interesting thought.
I would honestly be a bit surprised if I, by doing this in a casual game against you, cause you to think I was doing something fishy or bending the rules. That is interesting, might be worth a discussion else where.
I don't know how much I disagree with how they did pile-ins though. I guess you could say you can't shift one way or the other, but honestly it's hard to not allow some leeway, and at least they are not directly "walking away" from any model they are directly touching (Based on bases, as per the rules totally don't care but most players will of course continue to anyways). But yeah, it's an interesting thought.
I would honestly be a bit surprised if I, by doing this in a casual game against you, cause you to think I was doing something fishy or bending the rules. That is interesting, might be worth a discussion else where.
I'm not one to require 'directly towards' the nearest model, but movement that leaves one equidistant doesn't feel like 'towards' to me. If a model was one inch from the nearest model, and looped around 3" to contact some entirely other model, in the process neither getting closer nor further from the initial closest enemy, would you consider that a move 'towards' that enemy?
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with it, though. I think 'lap arounds' were intended by the pile in rules. They feel like they were. Honestly, this seems fine, but pile ins in general seem to be open to a lot of debate right now.
In a side note, the tomb kings look really nice on those round bases. I think I'll be sticking to square, for movement tray purposes at least, but maybe a few of my heroes might end up going round. I don't know.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with it, though. I think 'lap arounds' were intended by the pile in rules. They feel like they were. Honestly, this seems fine, but pile ins in general seem to be open to a lot of debate right now.
In a side note, the tomb kings look really nice on those round bases. I think I'll be sticking to square, for movement tray purposes at least, but maybe a few of my heroes might end up going round. I don't know.
Menkeroth
A Knight of Blood
Aye, that's definitely true. I would say the round bases are good for those who doesn't stand in the ranked infantry, for example, but in general it's the matter of one's personal aesthetics. Maybe a matter of tradition also.
And, by the way. This picture I saw on the Internet long ago, and it was quite unusual for me. Don't you think it certainly looks like someone had predicted coming of the Age of Sigmar?
Attachments
So our local store has started to warm up its summer narrative focused AoS campaign. The starting point is writing a bit of a blurb about your hero, the manager then turns that into an actual "special character" style war scroll and will modify your stats a bit, normally down, to reflect the fact that your hero is really right at the beginning of their venture.
E.g. one guy has chosen his General one of those dual hammer warriors from the AoS box, where as I'm a Necromancer, but certain traits have been reduced e.g. my staff only does 1 damage, not D3 (lol as if I ever want him to get into combat...)
First battle was against Bruce the not-so-aspiring Tzeentch warlord and his three Tzeentch flamers (Tzeentchian demon/spirits that haunt Bruce). I took my Necromancer, 5 Dire Wolves and 20 zombies (I was going to just take ten but my opponent said take 20, so I did, then later claimed he did not know I was taking my Dire Wolves as well...).
Dire Wolves are now great. Easily the champions of my game, getting stuck in and dealing the lion's share of the damage throughout the game. I summoned a second unit of Dire Wolves towards the end of the game because it seemed like my zombies were going to sit there doing jack all, but ultimately I didn't need them.
Wot I lernd: At low levels summoning is potentially very powerful, but I don't think ridiculously so, being limited by not being able to move that unit that turn, and most numbers only being 10 zombies, with 20 on a 10+. With not being able to directly "invocation" wounds of zombies back onto an already existing unit, you have to consider your tactics and board control much more carefully. It's not as easy as it seems to keep your zombie horde numbers up into those magic numbers that give them the 3+3+/4+4+ hits and wounds.
I wasn't trying to powerplay or be a douche bag. I didn't realise how good Dire Wolves were, and expected his Lord and Flamers to be more punchy than they actually were. It was difficult for it NOT to be a victory for me, although whether Bruce survived or not did pretty much go down to the last dice roll. So as Bruce got sucked back into the warp, saved by his daemonic overlords to serve another day, my Necromancer ripped the haunting spirits from him and bound them to his own will. So that will be a Spirit Host I shall be adding onto my force for my next few battles.
Immediately after I played another guy with his 5 strong Liberator unit and his Retributor General. I took my Necro, 5 Dire Wolves and this time downed it to 15 zombies, a number suggested by both my opponent and the manager.
My opponent took sudden death rules and went for Endure, with the intention of sitting at the back of the board and trying to wait out the match for victory.
So turn 1 I summoned a second pack of Dire Wolves. My zombies were clearly in 28 days later mode as they ran 10" up the table, followed swiftly by my necro. Second turn I summoned more zombies and scored a boosted unit, so that was 20 more zombies on the table. Beginning of turn 3 and my first Dire Wolves charged into combat. By the end of Turn 4 the second wolf unit was in combat and the horde of 35 zombies was fast approaching, not to mention his Retributor general was dead. Well done dire pups! It still went down to the line as to whether he would get his sudden death victory, and with three liberators left on the table and the great save rolls he was making it looked like that would be the case. However the zombies managed to drag down a liberator, leaving two, and those final two failed their battleshock test, and my Necro once again ripped out their souls, split them in half and bound them into the bodies of his followers... a unit of 10 Grave Guard I think to add to my forces!
Again I tried not to power play... at the beginning was considering summoning a unit of Vargheists to get across the table quickly but decided to stick with a second unit of Dire pups.
So yeah. I definitely enjoyed it. In one evening I've equalled my total number of victories with my VC in 8th edition games. Not too shabby I think.
E.g. one guy has chosen his General one of those dual hammer warriors from the AoS box, where as I'm a Necromancer, but certain traits have been reduced e.g. my staff only does 1 damage, not D3 (lol as if I ever want him to get into combat...)
First battle was against Bruce the not-so-aspiring Tzeentch warlord and his three Tzeentch flamers (Tzeentchian demon/spirits that haunt Bruce). I took my Necromancer, 5 Dire Wolves and 20 zombies (I was going to just take ten but my opponent said take 20, so I did, then later claimed he did not know I was taking my Dire Wolves as well...).
Dire Wolves are now great. Easily the champions of my game, getting stuck in and dealing the lion's share of the damage throughout the game. I summoned a second unit of Dire Wolves towards the end of the game because it seemed like my zombies were going to sit there doing jack all, but ultimately I didn't need them.
Wot I lernd: At low levels summoning is potentially very powerful, but I don't think ridiculously so, being limited by not being able to move that unit that turn, and most numbers only being 10 zombies, with 20 on a 10+. With not being able to directly "invocation" wounds of zombies back onto an already existing unit, you have to consider your tactics and board control much more carefully. It's not as easy as it seems to keep your zombie horde numbers up into those magic numbers that give them the 3+3+/4+4+ hits and wounds.
I wasn't trying to powerplay or be a douche bag. I didn't realise how good Dire Wolves were, and expected his Lord and Flamers to be more punchy than they actually were. It was difficult for it NOT to be a victory for me, although whether Bruce survived or not did pretty much go down to the last dice roll. So as Bruce got sucked back into the warp, saved by his daemonic overlords to serve another day, my Necromancer ripped the haunting spirits from him and bound them to his own will. So that will be a Spirit Host I shall be adding onto my force for my next few battles.
Immediately after I played another guy with his 5 strong Liberator unit and his Retributor General. I took my Necro, 5 Dire Wolves and this time downed it to 15 zombies, a number suggested by both my opponent and the manager.
My opponent took sudden death rules and went for Endure, with the intention of sitting at the back of the board and trying to wait out the match for victory.
So turn 1 I summoned a second pack of Dire Wolves. My zombies were clearly in 28 days later mode as they ran 10" up the table, followed swiftly by my necro. Second turn I summoned more zombies and scored a boosted unit, so that was 20 more zombies on the table. Beginning of turn 3 and my first Dire Wolves charged into combat. By the end of Turn 4 the second wolf unit was in combat and the horde of 35 zombies was fast approaching, not to mention his Retributor general was dead. Well done dire pups! It still went down to the line as to whether he would get his sudden death victory, and with three liberators left on the table and the great save rolls he was making it looked like that would be the case. However the zombies managed to drag down a liberator, leaving two, and those final two failed their battleshock test, and my Necro once again ripped out their souls, split them in half and bound them into the bodies of his followers... a unit of 10 Grave Guard I think to add to my forces!
Again I tried not to power play... at the beginning was considering summoning a unit of Vargheists to get across the table quickly but decided to stick with a second unit of Dire pups.
So yeah. I definitely enjoyed it. In one evening I've equalled my total number of victories with my VC in 8th edition games. Not too shabby I think.
wheeljack
Skeleton
@Malisteen That was a good match with great ending. But the pile ins did suck, and lack of movement trays are going to give everyone that plays AOS bad backs lol.
QUOTE="wheeljack, post: 429721, member: 12185"]@Malisteen That was a good match with great ending. But the pile ins did suck, and lack of movement trays are going to give everyone that plays AOS bad backs lol.[/QUOTE]
Very much so, running with zombies is probably less problematic than moving then charging, as you have to break the second one into two moves... one of four inches then your 2D6 inch charge. With running you only have to move the damn models once, at least!
Very much so, running with zombies is probably less problematic than moving then charging, as you have to break the second one into two moves... one of four inches then your 2D6 inch charge. With running you only have to move the damn models once, at least!
Yeah, I plan to switch over to circle/oval bases. I rather like the look, and the value of ranking up is not worth it to me. Plus I have no desire to return to previous incarnations of WHFB.
But yeah, as far as I've been playing with my friends, notably in 40k, and we pile in in a nearly identical manner. Sometimes we play a looser interpretation of "towards the nearest model" on charges. Which is wrong, but as long as we're playing by the same rules it's not too big of a deal. I can understand how it would be a bit hazy. It'd of been nice if there were diagrams of what is or is not allowed, as per in the 40k rules. It goes quite a long ways in explaining what exactly they mean with things that could be interpreted a bit hazy. But I certainly think models wrap around, letting them shuffle out of the way to make room is just far easier than literally moving the models all around the edges to lap into the opponent.
Although another thing I really don't like that they did on the battle report was making the 3" pile in moves activate that deadly hill. It's suppose to be only charge and run, and honestly that unit losing three models was INSANELY bad luck, although super funny.
Yeah, I would say that picture is definitely just models that are non-GW, some sort of random historic ones by the looks of it. They certainly don't have nice beveled edges.
Well I'm just going to say I have played Tyranids for many years, and it's really not that bad moving a hecka ton of models around the board. You get used to it, and once you've moved the front line you can usually skip to the next part of the turn that matters and fill the rest in when your opponent has to react to something on your turn, like their swings back in combat.
Also, @Banat, it's super great to hear about your matches, although they seem like the Necro might have been having too much of a field day. Certainly easy for summoning to be a bit harsh on lower points, and I totally undervalued skeletons the first match I used them in, taking 20 to my opponents unit of like 3-4 Ogres. Turns out Skeletons put in work, especially with a hero around for re-rolls on 1s, and then the Dire wolves? Those things are great! Definitely makes me want to finish up my units of Direwolves, because they are really freakin' nice.
I hope you find a balance that works better for you though, because it's never fun to know your wins are based mostly on accidental mis-matches. Not saying that you didn't play well, but especially at lower model count games it's easy to misjudge.
Yeah, our manager has debuffed most of the hero units, but I suggested, at lower levels he might consider debuffing summoning, and I think he's going to put a miscast mechanic in for lower summoners as well. He's putting something together anyhow. Those two games were kind of "tester feelers" really, and he can make adjustments based on those.
He also had some horrific rolling to hit with his Chaos hero, he just couldn't kill those damn dogs! lol
He also had some horrific rolling to hit with his Chaos hero, he just couldn't kill those damn dogs! lol
Have you seen the new starter box?
My friend and I started into the scenario chain, which is basically trying to tell a short story of events; Well the first one is just the Celestant on Dracoth vs the Khorne monster +Whip guy. And it's just a slug fest to show you how to roll dice, literally the most basic thing in the world. So my friend and I go at this just to get it out of the way, and literally the first round all creatures either missed or failed to wound, and it was like "so uhhh". It was one of the worst feelings ever, like "Are we, uh, having fun right now?"
Obviously it was just because of the extremely low model count plus a case of terrible dice rolls, but when that is all you have to look at in a "game" (As small as it might be), it just seems so punishing, it's hard not to feel like things are just going awfully.
Subsequently however, we traded blows back and forth a bit, although the Dracoth and Celestant came out on top after his hammer drove home d3 damage a few times. Yikes is that powerful compared to a flat 1 sometimes. Although it can also make you value things a bit too highly if you go into a fight expecting to make good on your higher-potential damage and only roll 1s or 2s.
Which I think is where the more advanced consideration of tactics comes into it a bit more. Yes my guy can potentially dish it out... but only potentially...
My second game was another example of deeper tactics and not just a slug fest. I was all prepared to sit at the back of the board just raising zombies and dire wolves and make him foot slog it with his 5" move across the table to me. Then he chose sudden death "endure" and my game became a race across the board to take him out as fast as possible. With zombies that move 4"... at least the Dire Wolves have 10" and I could have been a douche and summoned a unit of Vargheists, but that wouldn't have been sporting.
And of course, as you said, the fewer the models, the less tactics and strategy there is to the game.
Once we get up to games of 4 units + the tactics will become more important.
There was also subtle tactics in deciding which unit you were going to hit with first. E.g. at one point I had 32 zombies in combat with him... had I attacked with the Dire Wolves first, which I might have been inclined to do because they were doing well with their rolls, then that would have given his Lord a chance to attack back at the zombies, to score another three wounds and reduce them to under 30, thus they'd lose one of their +1+1 bonuses, making it that much easier for his Lord to stay alive in combat with all of them a bit longer.
I'm liking the following limits on summoning:
1- 'limit max # of summons to number of spells caster can cast in a turn' - ie, a necro, who can cast 1 spell per turn, can summon a single unit, and cannot summon another until that unit is destroyed, while Arkhan or Kemmler could summon 2, but would have to wait until one of those
1.5- maybe combine that with a restriction that units to be summoned must be pre-selected for each caster, like your necromancer can summon a unit, so you select in reserve for that necromancer a unit of 20 zombies (the most they can raise with a single casting, roll dependent), and that is the only unit that caster can try to summon (or re-summon if it is destroyed). I don't know for sure about this, I haven't tried it yet.
2- 'Summoned characters cannot cast summoning spells', in the style of old school D&D demons being able to summon more demons, but those daemons not being able to summon more more demons.
3- 'if a summoner dies, their summoned units are destroyed (or alternatively reduced to bravery zero and must test command every round regardless of casualties)' - which is a bit more bookwork, since you have to keep track of who summoned whom (though that book work is limited by the max summons), but brings back some of that old crumble flavor and allows opponents to target the summoners to remove that advantage in numbers.
4- If limiting forces by a total number of warscrolls, count units you intend to be available to summon against those scrolls. If using the above house rules, do not count them against total wounds for the match, but if you are not using the above house rules and are limiting the number of wounds available per side, then do count wounds of reserved units available for summoning.
I also like a restriction on stacking casting bonuses:
bonuses to casting or unbinding from external sources (ie, not those a wizard gives themselves by virtue of their personal warscroll rules or equipment) do not stack. ie, Arkhan is +2 to cast. Arkhan + mortis engine with tome is +3 to cast. Arkhan + mortis engine with tome + corpse cart with lodestone is still only +3 to cast, because the mortis engine and corpse cart, as external bonuses, do not stack.
Note, however, that these are only thoughts based on a handful of games, and considerably more testing based on the rules as written would be necessary before I would say limitations on summoning "should" be put in place, while more games with these particular house rules would be needed before I would say that these are the right limitations to use.
1- 'limit max # of summons to number of spells caster can cast in a turn' - ie, a necro, who can cast 1 spell per turn, can summon a single unit, and cannot summon another until that unit is destroyed, while Arkhan or Kemmler could summon 2, but would have to wait until one of those
1.5- maybe combine that with a restriction that units to be summoned must be pre-selected for each caster, like your necromancer can summon a unit, so you select in reserve for that necromancer a unit of 20 zombies (the most they can raise with a single casting, roll dependent), and that is the only unit that caster can try to summon (or re-summon if it is destroyed). I don't know for sure about this, I haven't tried it yet.
2- 'Summoned characters cannot cast summoning spells', in the style of old school D&D demons being able to summon more demons, but those daemons not being able to summon more more demons.
3- 'if a summoner dies, their summoned units are destroyed (or alternatively reduced to bravery zero and must test command every round regardless of casualties)' - which is a bit more bookwork, since you have to keep track of who summoned whom (though that book work is limited by the max summons), but brings back some of that old crumble flavor and allows opponents to target the summoners to remove that advantage in numbers.
4- If limiting forces by a total number of warscrolls, count units you intend to be available to summon against those scrolls. If using the above house rules, do not count them against total wounds for the match, but if you are not using the above house rules and are limiting the number of wounds available per side, then do count wounds of reserved units available for summoning.
I also like a restriction on stacking casting bonuses:
bonuses to casting or unbinding from external sources (ie, not those a wizard gives themselves by virtue of their personal warscroll rules or equipment) do not stack. ie, Arkhan is +2 to cast. Arkhan + mortis engine with tome is +3 to cast. Arkhan + mortis engine with tome + corpse cart with lodestone is still only +3 to cast, because the mortis engine and corpse cart, as external bonuses, do not stack.
Note, however, that these are only thoughts based on a handful of games, and considerably more testing based on the rules as written would be necessary before I would say limitations on summoning "should" be put in place, while more games with these particular house rules would be needed before I would say that these are the right limitations to use.