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Age of Sigmar New edition hopes

#52
You are right, but speaking seriously it makes sense.
If left alone, Undead should logically become the strongest faction... one of the best way to face Nagash for living beings, would be to undermine the main source of his power, hence the soul stealing from different factions
 

Irisado

Ancient Vampire Lord
Staff member
True Blood
#54
There are a lot of things that I like about Soul Wars, but as others have noted, I too am also concerned by the number of expansions here. I know that they are voluntary, in theory, however, if the people who you play against end up going down that route, it makes it very difficult to avoid doing the same. In addition, it has the potential to make getting into the game more difficult and more confusing. Nevertheless, in terms of expanding the world, the narrative, and adding character to the armies there is a lot of very impressive material here.
 
#55
There are a lot of things that I like about Soul Wars, but as others have noted, I too am also concerned by the number of expansions here. I know that they are voluntary, in theory, however, if the people who you play against end up going down that route, it makes it very difficult to avoid doing the same. In addition, it has the potential to make getting into the game more difficult and more confusing. Nevertheless, in terms of expanding the world, the narrative, and adding character to the armies there is a lot of very impressive material here.
Agree. The summoning changes and look out, sir! will help make Death great again... but I am very dubious indeed about that magic expansion. It smacks too much of Storm of Magic for my liking *shudder*
 

Malisteen

Master Necromancer
#56
Its just remains in play spells for aos, and the spells themselves will cost points AND your opponent can potentially take control of the spells you paid points for. Endless Legions is more likely to break the game than purple sun.
 

Irisado

Ancient Vampire Lord
Staff member
True Blood
#58
I also do not believe that the new spells are going to be the cause of any major balance problems, rather it's just adding another supplement that I find problematic. As for the updated rules, they PDF is significantly longer, but not in a bad way, so I welcome the changes.
 

Jon

Mortarch of Salt
True Blood
#59
Anything that gives Age of Sigmar a proper 'gateway' is fine by me. The product line has been a mess since launch. I know there are such things as "start collecting" boxes but they don't exactly feed into a coherent "start playing" experience. It took Blightwar, and now War of Souls, to actually structure the process of learning about AoS for new players - or old salts like me who effectively skipped eighth edition WFB and the End Times altogether, and came back to find everything blown up.

I feel that the last few years have been an extended public beta - "let's see how far we can push this, including wild nonsense like 'no points values'" - and hopefully the new edition's going to settle down a bit more and be something like the current 40K rules. Relatively light core, depth to be found in the rules for units and factions, still with the option to bung all your dudes on the table if that's what you want, and with an option for relatively balanced battles without the nitty gritty number-crunching of pricing out every last upgrade on every last dude who can have one. Power is one of the best ideas GW have had in years - for the purpose of casual play knowing that a unit is worth X regardless of exactly what everyone's carrying but goes up to Y if you add three more dudes is fine. Really want to see something like it for AOS - a compromise between the quest for ultimate balance (fool's errand) and the guessing game of Bung It On The Board And Hope that 'narrative' play often turns into.
 

Menkeroth

A Knight of Blood
#60
GW never made good games, they simply can't. Also because they know nothing except points, the worst balancing method ever. It amuses me how people can't perceive anything else because of GW brainwashing. Simpletons. All GW games are and were wild nonsense, terrible at best. There are lots of good ones out there, different and interesting, and WH never was one of them. But at least GW is learning, and although they already returned back to the bad old days to an extent, maybe in a thousand years they will learn how to make good games.
 

Jon

Mortarch of Salt
True Blood
#61
I'm realist enough to accept that Average Joe Gamer likes pickup games a lot more than sitting down to work each engagement out from instincts, first principles and anecdata. Pickup games are easier with something like points values - some way of constructing forces beforehand - in much the same way as a generic 'mission' requires less mental effort than a bespoke scenario. The advantage of doing things this way is that one can play with a perfect stranger and not have to go through the rigmarole of working out what their idea of 'fun' is and what their unwritten rules of engagement look like and, god help us all, making FRIENDS with everyone before playing games with them.

With these precepts understood, the idea of a mass market wargame without points values does indeed seem like wild nonsense - but if you're not thinking about what's going to sit well with the purchasing majority, if your precepts are different, I can understand why your opinion differs.
 

Menkeroth

A Knight of Blood
#62
Because the reality is much more different to yours, actually, and because you know nothing of it does not change the fact. You are trapped in a false perception because you obviously need no other knowledge except from GW, which I understand. And pity. It's a pity indeed that average GW gamers are so simple that they can not think outside of the box and play more than missions where their brains are not needed, if they ever exist. That's why others despise GW at best. GW knows how to do interesting settings, that's for sure, but their fanbase is the simplest and pitiest of all.
 

Jon

Mortarch of Salt
True Blood
#63
Baseless projection. You know Jackie Chan about me, what I know, or what I've played. I'd hoped for a productive conversation, but if you will insist on talking past me - or to yourself - there's nothing for you but the sea. Get in it.
 

Malisteen

Master Necromancer
#64
Hey, Menk, what are some of these much better miniatures wargames you've spoken of that don't use any sort of points system? Like, what are some examples of the kinds of games you think handle things in a better way?
 

Menkeroth

A Knight of Blood
#65
what are some of these much better miniatures wargames you've spoken of that don't use any sort of points system?
There are many of them, both long before GW and after, like Hail Caesar by Priestley or MINI-NAP 2. And they work much-much better, also because tend to be much more scenic, thematic and thoughtful. GW has spoiled people quite much with terrible rules and those ETC nightmares that evolved into that "9th age" cadaver.

Like, what are some examples of the kinds of games you think handle things in a better way?
It depends on what you are looking for. Composition? I would also name Infinity, if you like skirmishes, and I also like the Warmachine system in this regard (but, honestly, the game itself and minis find not that amazing as their fans insist they are). Large scale battles are the field of the historicals anyway. In terms of interesting and creative decisions I like SAGA and Bolt Action, for instance. In terms of GW, though, I find the current 2.0 rules quite decent, with some adjusting to your personal tastes and little improvements it can be enjoyable, but not for epic battles GW likes to promote. It's an old problem they still can't handle - you have units but everything is done model wise, which is very inconvenient and illogical.
 

Malisteen

Master Necromancer
#66
I though both warmachine and infinity used points systems. Never heard of mini nap, google search turns up the ruleset, which looks interesting, but doesnt seem to find anyone who's actually ever played it, let alone does so currently, and i have to wonder if that's because of that rule sets refusal to even try to structure games or scenarios in any way at all beyond just telling you to look up historical battles and try to emulate those.

And, I mean, I acknowledge the weaknesses of points systems, but I really can't agree that 'no attempt at any system what so ever' is an improvement. Like, my appartment is cruddy, but living on the street would not be a step up, if you get what I'm saying here.

Hail Caesar at least has some full scenarios with suggested lists? Apparently? The rule books aren't free to view, so I'm only going by second hand descriptions, here. That strikes me as more workable, but I'm not sure 'play these exact models' is a great direction for a fantasy hobby wargame, where part of the fun, for me anyway, is in customizing the army selection.
 

Menkeroth

A Knight of Blood
#67
I though both warmachine and infinity used points systems. Never heard of mini nap, google search turns up the ruleset, which looks interesting, but doesnt seem to find anyone who's actually ever played it, let alone does so currently, and i have to wonder if that's because of that rule sets refusal to even try to structure games or scenarios in any way at all beyond just telling you to look up historical battles and try to emulate those.
The set offers you a line of corps you can form your units into, just like many historicals actually.

And, I mean, I acknowledge the weaknesses of points systems, but I really can't agree that 'no attempt at any system what so ever' is an improvement. Like, my appartment is cruddy, but living on the street would not be a step up, if you get what I'm saying here.
it is at least by forcing you to think, if people ever can. Absence of brains is a weak excuse for clinging to such obsolete ideas as most people try. It's good even GW at last realized it's better to at least partially make people try to think outside of the box.
Hail Caesar at least has some full scenarios with suggested lists? Apparently? The rule books aren't free to view, so I'm only going by second hand descriptions, here. That strikes me as more workable, but I'm not sure 'play these exact models' is a great direction for a fantasy hobby wargame, where part of the fun, for me anyway, is in customizing the army selection.
HC offers you a lot, actually, scenarios as well, if people can't come up with their own. Also, as a sidenote, I imagine die hard WHFB fans will also label Bolt Action as unplayable and terrible, which will not surprise me. It must be a real pain for such people to encounter something vastly different from their little perfect worlds.
 

Malisteen

Master Necromancer
#69
Your condescending attitude to points can be applied to any other element of a ruleset, though. Why stop at rejecting gw for telling you how many wight kings can fit in an army, why not also demand to decide for yourself how far they can move, or how strong they hit?

Why are you letting Rick Priestly tell you what dice to roll to resolve a combat in your roman legion game, or how and when to move your models? Use your own brain, Menk. Stop being lazy and playing other people's rule sets like a sheep, and write your own instead! Think for yourself! :tongue:

To me, the job that points do in a minigame, whether that job is done by points or something else, that's the hard job. Turn structure, contest resolution, even noofling around with specific faction abilities, all that's the easy part. Actually devising a system that allows people to play varied forces in games with even an illusion that those games were on vaguely even footing, that's the hard part. That's the fifficult part to do for myself. That's the part I'm actually paying for when I buy a minis game ruleset.

It's one thing for mini nap to skip that, mini nap is free to download. But if some other rules writer wants to charge me 50 bucks for a rulebook, I need them to do that job somehow. Maybe not with points, but somehow. They can't toss that back to me and say "do it yourself".

If I go to a restaurant and order the spaghetti, i want the spaghetti to come yo my table ready to eat. Not as a plate of dry noodles, cold water, raw tomatoes, and some loose garlic & spices.

So what If I'm being lazy? I'm the customer. I'm paying the money. I put my work in at my job to get the money. My game time is for relaxing not yet more work. Turn that laziness argument back at the game writer who wants to charge for the easy part of game design, then tell the players to work out the hard part for themselves.
 
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Menkeroth

A Knight of Blood
#70
Your condescending attitude to points can be applied to any other element of a ruleset, though. Why stop at rejecting gw for telling you how many wight kings can fit in an army, why not also demand to decide for yourself how far they can move, or how strong they hit?
No, it can't, because you should then look elsewhere like "9th age". They rejected everything and made a perfect game that has no rival and is better than anything out there, perfect Warhammer. I guess they lost you somewhere on the way.

But if some other rules writer wants to charge me 50 bucks for a rulebook
GW has free rules, everything else is optional and so not free, because if people want more they can pay. It's quite logical and not bad for a marketing decision.

If I go to a restaurant and order the spaghetti, i want the spaghetti to come yo my table ready to eat. Not as a plate of dry noodles, cold water, raw tomatoes, and some loose garlic & spices.
Except that this analogy does not work, yes. I totally agree with you. As I remember many people still compare AoS to WHFB in exactly this way - WHFB was a restaurant with perfect food and AoS is a cheap McDonald's at best, terrible and pitiable. It's like burning your own dark elves collection on YouTube. O tempora, o mores.

Turn that laziness argument back at the game writer who wants to charge for the easy part of game design, then tell the players to work out the hard part for themselves.
Except that it's not hard and that many people do it and offer to others, just like it was with all those comps back in the day.
 

Malisteen

Master Necromancer
#71
Im confused by the peaise for ninth age's originality and quality. Per originality, that game mostly seemwd concerned with recreating an existing game. Per quality, i cant speak directly, as i never had the chance to play it, but from an outsider's perspective, that game and community really seem to be falling apart lately, in a way that seems incongruous with the "perfection" you're ascribing to it.
 

Malisteen

Master Necromancer
#72
GW has free rules, everything else is optional and so not free.
Actually, this is a good example, because the rules for moving the models around are free, but the rules for actually structuring and organizing your armies and games, those they know they can charge for, not even just once but again every year, and they know players eill happily pay for it, because that's the part that matters most. That's the hard part that will never be quite right, and requires system-wide regular maintenance to accomodate new releases.
 

Menkeroth

A Knight of Blood
#73
Im confused by the peaise for ninth age's originality and quality. Per originality, that game mostly seemwd concerned with recreating an existing game. Per quality, i cant speak directly, as i never had the chance to play it, but from an outsider's perspective, that game and community really seem to be falling apart lately, in a way that seems incongruous with the "perfection" you're ascribing to it.
I was sarcastic here, because all that stuff is against everything I like in the hobby. No models, same old game engine completely unfit for the game, same exclusively tournament scene. No, not for me. And time tells they were dying out for a reason.

Actually, this is a good example, because the rules for moving the models around are free, but the rules for actually structuring and organizing your armies and games, those they know they can charge for, not even just once but again every year, and they know players eill happily pay for it, because that's the part that matters most. That's the hard part that will never be quite right, and requires system-wide regular maintenance to accomodate new releases.
Well, if people can't do it themselves, they can pay. This is not immediately fair, of course, but so it is. I, for one, don't use all that stuff, that's just too much, I am happy with basic rules and my ideas to play. If, on the other hand, I would go to a club or tournament, I would use their ideas and methods that mean they have prepared it beforehand for themselves. Not bad. Also those GW stores I've seen in Germany also had some missions and scenarios for those people wanting to try out the game or just play at the store, likewise models and rules too.
 

Malisteen

Master Necromancer
#74
We have clearly different tastes, but I do think you're missing out on some of the better parts of AoS. The matched play scenarios have actually been pretty decent, and I'm excited to see the new ones. And as for the core rule system... I mean, it's serviceable? But nothing great. At release, it was barely workable, and even in 2e there's some pretty major flaws to it, in particular the player turn structure that has one player sitting around not doing very much while the other player does everything with every unit before swapping off. The possibility of a double turn only compounds things. Alternating activations in the combat phase make that much more engaging, it's a shame the rest of the game phases weren't structured in the same way. As it is, if you're playing against a shooty army that gets a double turn that can be like half an hour or more of not engaging with the game at all beyond rolling saves and removing models.

And while that's my biggest problem with the core ruleset, it isn't the only one. true line of sight remains awkward. laser-guided cannonballs sniping heroes, the lack of differentiation in kinds of attacks beyond rend and mortal wounds (in 40k there's a difference between high accuracy, low strength attacks and vice versa, in AoS not so much)...

I don't mean to over-harp on the problems. There have been a lot of incremental improvements to the system over its life so far, and more are made in 2e. Overall it's a serviceable foundation on which some really neat faction, magic, setting, and scenario rules have been built.

But the part you seem to consider to be the good bits? To me, that's the weakest link in the entire chain.
 

Menkeroth

A Knight of Blood
#75
And as for the core rule system... I mean, it's serviceable? But nothing great.
I agree, that's true, that's why I adjust it to my tastes. Like alternating activation of units, I like it much more than "I move all and then you move yours all". I move one unit or hero, another player moves one his, and so on. This is really engaging. That's why I always say GW never made really good games despite decades of experience, save maybe only Chainmail back in the day.

And while that's my biggest problem with the core ruleset, it isn't the only one. true line of sight remains awkward. laser-guided cannonballs sniping heroes, the lack of differentiation in kinds of attacks beyond rend and mortal wounds (in 40k there's a difference between high accuracy, low strength attacks and vice versa, in AoS not so much)...
Also true, 8th ed. of 40k seems much more entertaining for the most part. For now I only see the extensive use of terrain as more or less remedy for all of this, that's why I got those lovable Italery fortifications from their French artillery boxes. as well as four dwarven stockades from the Battle for the Skull Pass.

But the part you seem to consider to be the good bits? To me, that's the weakest link in the entire chain.
It is one of the weakest, but not so bad either, and still enjoyable with some tweaks. I just dwell on it much less playing with likeminded friends and no tournaments that are completely against the spirit of the hobby. But I understand your concerns either and agree it's all not perfect and needs still a lot of work in which GW seems to be lazy and unimaginable. Still at least alternating activation and either full model or unit activation instead of that hybrid we have can do the trick.
 
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