Age of sigmar

[Dakaar]

There is so much wrong with the rule set (over powered shooting, over powered summoning, measuring from models, placing models over bases, no points/balancing etc etc) that any attempt to fix it will mean a document longer than the actual rules themselves.

Further the big draw of warhammer is its market saturation - being able to walk into a store and get a game, this wont be possible with the amount of house ruling needed as everywhere will play different, totally defeating its one biggest draw.

At this point its logical to say, why do all th work to fix it then, since you could as easily write your own system for your own groups use, or use existing working systems with better universal saturation since they all use the same rules.

This is all before even considering the systems faults/changes that many dont like (and need no testing to know as much) - background/setting, ranked combat, no flank/rear attack bonuses etc etc

 

[LordTobiothan]

Your overall tone is the issue. You keep painting my own experience and observations as wrong and each post you stack up how many other sources negate what I am saying. I don't care if you like the game or not, I am not trying to convince you. What I am doing though is being open-minded and trying to give the game a chance and I am reporting my findings, contrary to what many of the nay-sayers are doing who are playing one game and saying screw it or they aren't even touching it.

Your posts keep attacking AoS and those in "authority" who are supporting it. Look at the post you made above. "Many very very very experienced"; "abysmally small compared"; "final fantasy rpg into total war genere"; "Even many of those that agree with you"; "I heard your the first three times";"You can repeat it all you want"...

All of these comments are disrespectful, inflammatory and dramatic. You are trying to invalidate my posts, trying to make me look like I don't know what I'am talking about and that I am ranting and raving on, repeating myself or arguing with people. All I've done is written one article, posted in a handful of places where people who want to read it can and then replied to comments directed at me or posts that quote me.

Most people here know who I am and that I know my way around the Warhammer table. They also know that I have a reputation of being leveled-headed, objective and fair. If AoS was a piece of shit, I would be the first to demand a 8th edition revision or a proper 9th edition. What I found in my exploration with AoS says there is something worthwhile here to explore, change isn't always bad and give it a chance.

My tone is no different then yours, any criticism toward your experience to AoS is met with you quoting your experience, or claiming inexperienced players are just running blocks toward each other, or aserting that AoS has a lot of depth and tactical choices. Which when you say it comes off as fine to you but as soon as I say literally the exact opposite you consider it an inflammatory post.

Are you not seeing the hypocrisy between your posts and mine? You are trying to convince others to try it by telling them it has everything that are the very reasons they aren't trying it and not understanding that I'm trying to tell you that. You don't need to feel attacked just because I'm speaking to you like you speak to many on here you consider less experienced then you. That's precisely the reason I used exaggerated speak like "Many very very very experienced" because the very crux of your posts is that people should try it because an experienced player like you liked it, which as you've noted by me saying other more experienced players didn't like, wasn't a convincing argument to you, just like it isn't a convincing argument for anyone else to try it.

You feeling like I'm personally out to invalidate your posts, when I've asked the same of everyone who makes claims about AoS. Everyone else has explained how they played the rules and where among the ones they didn't like they had fun. Where you've done nothing but remind me of your experience and how much you can micromanage your units, then feel attacked because one person on here dares ask for more then that before jumping into games of AoS.

When I get the same responses 3-4 times in a row, I feel like you may not have understood my posts point so I have to put in more emphasis and less eloquence because it is easier to understand. If you did understand and did not address it anyway then it seems far more disrespectful toward me for you to continue responding that way. Which I assume you wouldn't do so the former is the assumption I make.

 

[Count michael]

I would love to play a game it sounds fun and quite interesting, sadly finding someone who will play against me is a bit hard since everyone at my club only plays x-wing or Warmahordes which I can't stand. I actually like the rules they seem quite simple to understand as easy enough to play but still challenging with tactics as 40k is getting a bit stale especially since it takes ages just to set up and play (more so will all the dice rolls needed to sort out everything. Going to start a warriors of chaos army already purchased some Avatars of war corrupters (they look a really good as nurgle count as without being the fat jolly GW style) i like that army's can be more flexible (yes I understand some are crying foul for some crazy shenanigans) especially since I can include everything I like, can't wait till FW releases their unit warscrolls

 

[Tawg]

There is so much wrong with the rule set (over powered shooting, over powered summoning, measuring from models, placing models over bases, no points/balancing etc etc) that any attempt to fix it will mean a document longer than the actual rules themselves.

Further the big draw of warhammer is its market saturation - being able to walk into a store and get a game, this wont be possible with the amount of house ruling needed as everywhere will play different, totally defeating its one biggest draw.

At this point its logical to say, why do all th work to fix it then, since you could as easily write your own system for your own groups use, or use existing working systems with better universal saturation since they all use the same rules.

This is all before even considering the systems faults/changes that many dont like (and need no testing to know as much) - background/setting, ranked combat, no flank/rear attack bonuses etc etc

That's a bit of conjecture. With 40k I would definitely say saturation is a thing, and going into your FLGS for a pick up game is something of ease. With WHFB.. not nearly as much. It was often something I only even saw at the stores near me if there were events being run by an individual with the ambition to keep track of people and help organize everything. But pick up games aren't exactly a thing (And I don't live in a terribly small area, it's no metropolitan city but, it's a fairly large base of players).

On the issue of house ruling, that has yet to be seen. I played two games against other people without modifying the rules. The game is functional (If a bit silly by our previous notions at times), so I think that declaring that everyone will require house rules to simply play is a bit of an exaggeration. Of course I do think house rules will develop, and potentially people will disagree about how things should be played, but people disagree with things even with our "iron clad" documents from previous editions of GW rules (Face it, they don't exactly do rules lawyering well). More importantly, the issue of house rules will be void in any games beyond pick-ups, since anyone who chooses to run an event (the FLGS themselves, or individuals with campaign/league ideas) can easily issue the "Official" house ruling list for such events. FLGS(s) could even post house rules for their store that dictate how the game is played when on store grounds (Literal House Rules, for a change).

As a parting note, I just wanted to mention I think it's funny the list of things you presented after "The systems faults/changes that many don't like". I happen not to mind the story much at all, though I haven't gotten too deep into it, I enjoy the whole "limitless possibilities" presented by such parallel dimensions. I also will not be mourning the loss of bonuses for every possible thing, and while I understand the charm of such things, I will not be missing ranked formations nor flack/rear charge bonuses.

 

[Dragonet]

I wish I had more to add to the conversation, or that I could offer clarity or mediation, this subject's clearly moved a lot of people, I just had to comment on the video posted by Menkeroth.

Damn Menkeroth, that video was messed up! I dare say that Death Holy Death has redefined rage quitting! Here's my review of the video:
. Excessive warning disclaimers may have lessened the impact slightly
. Better soundtrack required: I'd probably recomend more of a crowdpleaser, something by Killswitch Engage, but this was obviously a very personal life-changing event for the producer, so fair enough.
. Dude went cheap on the fuel. I appreciated watching the models burning through the flames for a couple of minutes, but it did drag a little after the quarter hour mark. Few explosions would've been cool.
. The Phoenix Guard looked BADASS through the flames!
. Warhammer boxes are surprisingly resilient, not exactly fire-rated but I'd certainly take my models to a mate's BBQ/gaming mashup now.

In all seriousness, I would not condone or recommend this action. It's potentially very Zen or even laudable, but anyone living in a money based system must respect the value of the models and consider carefully why you'd do this. Definitely not for me, I'm far too pragmatic.

 

[Emicrania]

Any opinion based discussion will often lead to crash and flame and burns. The more the opinion is logical and rational oriented,the easier the communication becomes,but as soon the "you" comes in the discussion,the matter becomes personal and therefore emotional.

Basically we are all on the same boat: " I think I'm right because my arguments makes perfectly sense to me ,I don't understand how in the hell can you think differently, please don't break my balls with your theories. You stay there,I stay here,we are all happy."

Personally I think the game have been dismantled in name of the Green $,the fifth great daemon, father of all things.

The fluff makes my cry,the rules chukles,the sculpts puke,the paint job horrify and those who support them scream in rage internally and externally.

However I have being playing and loving this game untill Etc came out,my whole group supports 8 and I do not believe in loyalty when money comes in.

Nonetheless I will try playing,not testing,actually playing and giving my 2 cent.

The fact thought that EVERYBODY is thinking how to balance an unbalanced ruleset,imho tells you a lot.

They piss on you and tell you is rain.
Old dude proverb.

 

[Skittelz1981]

@najo and @LordTobiothan .... ive followed your 'argument' here and i can only say that as usual LordTobiothan is making things personal.

Ive read posts from both of you extensively on this forum about varying topics and in all fairness it has struck me that tobiothan often is negative with a tendancy to unfriendly. Whether that is on purpose or not i dont know but maybe, just maybe, it would be good for you to tone down a little bit.
im not somekind of buddy of najo acting in his defense but i can understand why najo feels attacked. I can feel it for him by reading your posts.

We dont want people to feel attacked, you dont want to feel like that either, just try to keep it friendly and not personal.

Im not trying to point you out, tobiothan, as the evil wrongdo-er. Im merely stating my experience and objective view on how you write things down.

 

[Dragonet]

Very true Emicrania and fair point Skittelz regarding all of us keeping it friendly. This is obviously a highly charged subject for more than a few of us, and unfortunately a lot of issues are conflated: removal of GW support for 8th, a new game to test, new model range, what to do with our existing armies, what kind of game do we want to be playing in the future... Maybe the best way forward is to try and separate our feelings on how GW got us here from the only immediate question hanging over Ao$: Does it work? I'll give it a go as soon as I can; in the meantime I reckon the forum needs a separate thread for the disheartened and dejected to vent their frustrations, which I must say I feel are valid.

 

[Menkeroth]

If AoS was a piece of shit, I would be the first to demand a 8th edition revision or a proper 9th edition. What I found in my exploration with AoS says there is something worthwhile here to explore, change isn't always bad and give it a chance.

Aye, you have my vote also. Those who don't think there's strategy or tactics choices, don't use special tactics in WHFB either - these people always do the same and it's far from being a tactician. And those who were them in 8th edition, will be here also, for if you want to have strategy, you will have it anyway. Just lots of people don't want to think more that they need to - and who can blame them? Jedes das Seine.

Also, I liked this picture of different sizes. New khornate warriors look like they are the true space marines judging by their size!

 

[Undying Scourge]

Aye, you have my vote also. Those who don't think there's strategy or tactics choices, don't use special tactics in WHFB either - these people always do the same and it's far from being a tactician. And those who were them in 8th edition, will be here also, for if you want to have strategy, you will have it anyway. Just lots of people don't want to think more that they need to - and who can blame them? Jedes das Seine.

Also, I liked this picture of different sizes. New khornate warriors look like they are the true space marines judging by their size!

That's just a converted Sigmarite.

 

[Menkeroth]

That's just a converted Sigmarite.

Aye, you're right - my bad. But people say the new Khornates are larger than the usual chaos warriors or marauders anyway, and that's definitely good, is it not?

 

[Emicrania]

Aye, you're right - my bad. But people say the new Khornates are larger than the usual chaos warriors or marauders anyway, and that's definitely good, is it not?

Is personal taste and,as Romans used to say:" de gustibus non est disputandum".
Which is something like "watch two girls one cup,if turn you on,we won't judge ya"

 

[Undying Scourge]

Is personal taste and,as Romans used to say:" de gustibus non est disputandum".
Which is something like "watch two girls one cup,if turn you on,we won't judge ya"

Very crass, but true.

 

[Alabaster427]

Is personal taste and,as Romans used to say:" de gustibus non est disputandum".
Which is something like "watch two girls one cup,if turn you on,we won't judge ya"

Wait. two girls one cup doesn't turn you on?

 

[Menkeroth]

Is personal taste and,as Romans used to say:" de gustibus non est disputandum".
Which is something like "watch two girls one cup,if turn you on,we won't judge ya"

Aye, you have a point. But good size is what khornates always miss, don't you think? they take what is theirs by sheer strength of body, it will do for them.

 

[GDD]

TADAAA https://www.dropbox.com/s/y9vvb7nlhx4pwgr/Age of Sigmar Errata and Scenarios.pdf?dl=0

Unofficial

 

[Emicrania]

Aye, you have a point. But good size is what khornates always miss, don't you think? they take what is theirs by sheer strength of body, it will do for them.

Personally the share size and aspects of all fantasy model ( outside some malformation as our zombies or fell batz),untill etc at least (ok Nagash is cool and Nurgle release are...wow), imho, were simply a piece of art.
New sometime is good,some other is not.
Still is personal taste,so...

For the rest of you guys,well I would say...lets not dig into it too much

 

[Emicrania]

TADAAA https://www.dropbox.com/s/y9vvb7nlhx4pwgr/Age of Sigmar Errata and Scenarios.pdf?dl=0

Unofficial :tongue:

This is exactly why my rage and hate boils as a bad hangover of absinth and cheap Slovakian cigarettes.
In 6 days ,a bunch of nobodies (not GW minions anyway), balanced a game,or at least made it playiable more than twice.

 

[Tawg]

I disagree with removing shooting while in Melee. Until I see it being a truly over-powering effect (Which it may be), I believe in the difference between 2x Good Melee rolls vs 2x Ranged rolls being poor in Melee + 1x Ranged attack per "Round". I'll find out if this is a poor choice as I move forward though :ghost:

 

[Banat]

The new khorne blood warriors are scale wise a perfect match to the end times khorne infantry that they released on the 40mm bases. Can't remember what they were called.

 

[Alabaster427]

@najo could we get some batreps or something? I would really like to see your proposed formations in action (i.e. echelons, wedges, columns, etc.)

 

[Woolly.Mammoth]

I listened to the latest Garagehammer podcast and it shed some interesting light on why fantasy is so dead.

8th edition was the best system to date, very well rounded with clear rules. A group of people ragequit due to the new magic phase, or specifically, the "I win" spells that you cant do anything about and completely remove any sense of tactics from the game. But what really caused the fantasy fanbase to completely fall apart was that, for 9 months after release of 8th edition, there was not a single fantasy release. And then what was released? Freaking animosity Orcs - probably among the worst of the 8th books (while books like the old insane Deamons books were still in full swing). Then soon after, instead of more support of 8th edition, they released Storm of Magic - a completely new game set. There were almost no major releases for 9th edition for the first couple years. People gave up on the hobby not even because of the imbalanced rules but simply becasue GW went an absurd amount of time with zero support its new edition. Many of the fans gave up on GW becasue GW seemingly gave up on its WHFB fans.

Many of us here, probably most of us are returning or starting interest in the hobby becasue this drought ended and GW started to release fantasy on a fairly regular basis, culminating with the end times.

Now, GW has clearly turned a new leaf. Free rules, new apps. They have entered the digital age and are showing signs of competing in the same ways as the major competitors. As of today AoS is not even released yet; its been 6 days since pre-order for the box set, the "rule book" goes on pre-order tomorrow. Honestly they released a pamphlet in order to play the box set only. & maybe the mini lists at the end of the warscrolls. That doesn't mean we will get a point system and a rules book with 200 pages of rules, but it should mean that we wont need to. We are leaving age of Mat Ward and entering the Age of Sigmar. Sure its scary, everything is very fragile and confusing, but this time around I trust that they will support their product. We could see all kinds of amazing things - list builders, advanced tactics, maybe even official tournament support.

If they really have dropped the ball and completely left out any way to relegate army lists, then I trust that they will turn their ship around and release a point system at some point before their stores all go out of business. At the very least they are likely to be active in creating some sort of FAQ (as they were at the start of 8th when the Power Scroll was dominating games and they FAQ'd it out).

If you're like me you have about 20k hours of painting you can do while you wait to see how this all pans out. If not, buy the gorgeous new AoS box set even if for nothing more than to decorate your shelf. Do not burn your models or sell them on ebay because you will feel like an idiot in the long run, I promise you.

 

[Tawg]

@EternallyUndying That is certainly a bit of interesting points. And no doubt there is much that contributed to the fall of WHFB, to be sure GW's leadership among them. I'm sure it would be an interesting study to hear about all the factors that went into this, although it is unlikely that anyone would take the topic to that level of investigation.

But I appreciate you sharing that, I think the whole deal is quite interesting. I wonder how long into 8th it was before they had already decided to move into the AoS gear, because certainly they had to have been working on this for a long while, and we know from "accidental" WD pictures with round-based fantasy models that they must have already begun to test the rules in house. And certainly End Times was designed to drum up attention, while also providing a "logical" extension of what happened to segue into AoS. Very interesting indeed.

 

[Menkeroth]

 

[Seneschal]

I can't see the whole page, it's cut off at a certain point. Is it just happening to me or is anyone else having problems with the file?