Another look at morghasts

[LordTobiothan]

So the initial reaction to these things was special/rare high t/ws/s/m 80pts

Note the bold. It seems they were completely written off on price tag alone. Not a monster? more than 50 points? TOTAL CRAP.

Which is an odd way of thinking.

Looking at their statlines, at worst you are essentially buying (in rare) what amounts to two varghulfs for less then the price of one, with better special rules. Or (in special) really tanky varghiests. Again with better special rules.

Shooting heavy army? yeah i think I'll take 3 tanky harbingers over 5 varghiests/varghast. Chaff heavy army that redirects my frenzy easily? Same reasoning.

Even the tbat could move over. 3 archai have the same combat ability of a tbat, for less cost, smaller target, more bulk, and killing blow, all for the cost of a tbat scream. Which vs a high leadership army doesn't even do as much as those 3 more attacks that the archai get over the bat.

They are monstrous infantry, but I think we need to look at them less as a unit of infantry, and more as a unit of monsters. Seriously 90 point varghulf.

Thoughts?

Edit: the thought of thunderstomps vs stomps dawns on me, but the reasoning is still sound for how much less you pay.

 

[Sisters of Deception]

When comparing them to a varghulf they do seem to be quite decent stat wise.

Yet, as you've said yourself, stomp instead of a thunderstomp. But the varghulf does have more protection, in my opinion, aswell cause of his 4+ regen save.
Regen > armor save, if you ask me.
Oh, and I'd almost forget his hatred and terror. Aswell as being able to march on his own outside of our general's bubble.
I've not yet used this bad boy cause theres other choices I prefer more in my army. Especially nowadays in an UL list.

 

[LordTobiothan]

you trade hatred for killing blow, both cause terror, and marching away from general only gets the varghulf 2 extra inches, and hover has utility to make up for that.

The fact we can even compare a pair of these guys to a more expensive actual monster unit, says a lot in their favor. When costing as much as a ghulf you get three of them, which is even more killy and more wounds.

 

[El Syf]

I'm getting some, strength 6, 3 attacks, killing blow, 4 wounds that is not shabby at all. And I know they're not to everyone's taste but I love the models.

 

[najo]

The counter-crumbling aura is useful to. They support the units around them well and tend to not go down easily in combat.

 

[Demian]

Varghulfs are meant to flank/rear infantry! (ld 4 means when they get within 8'' of an enemy Unit, they'll fail their Enemy Sighted roll and just move. Still, they move 8, so that's quite a lot!)

Morghasts have a more central role, with their Heralds of the Accursed One rule, they pair up well with Spirit Hosts and Zombies, along a BSB.

Harbingers should concentrate on other infantry as well and combo charge with tough Units, such as the Black Coach or a Varghulf, but Archai are meant to cleave on Cavalry and hunt down other monsters, and can use a Crypt horror anvil (Special - Rare... Rare - Special... you get my point )

 

[The Sun King]

It's nice that you guys give them a second glance. I think they'll work their way in to more and more lists as times passes. We just have to play with them and learn their tricks. Sadly I will not be using them as I hate the models, but that is my problem, not theirs

 

[Sception]

I actually love the models, and have a pair on those grounds alone. I agree with the note that their battlefield role is pretty different from the ghulf, due to their inability to march and the unstable mitigation which you want to keep closer to your battleline anyway.

their points are hefty, though, when compared to horrors or gheists. Again, though, different roles.

im just not sure what exactly the role of the ghasts really is?

 

[najo]

Their role is to road block and grind. They threaten characters with killing blow, hold up to combat with T5, armor and crumble mitigation. They move fluid and summon back up easily. But their cost means they don't replace the hammer of the Varghiest our the anvil of the crypt horrors. Instead they are a support unit that can help get into combined combats or hold a unit up until you can get something else over to it.

It is an interesting unit. Plays differently from anything else Vampires have.

 

[Sception]

That's pretty much how i plan to use them once I have some painted. I guess time and experience will tell whether that works for them, or whether you're better off spending those points on cheaper, arguably more efficient units.

 

[Undying Scourge]

I personally think their rules are amazing, they're extremely resilient with 4 wounds and Toughness 5, not to mention the 4+ AS for Archai. Then on top of that they have killing blow, STRENGTH 6 if Archai with 3 attacks each! I suppose their number of attacks isn't that amazing, nor is their Initiative, but if you take a unit of 6 then you're probably going to cause some serious hurt. Plus if you take Nagash then you can just summon them when you have some tokens, so you don't even need to put them in your army list. Just throw 8-10 dice at it and hope you get irresistible force, because with his reroll on the miscast table you really needn't worry.

 

[Sception]

their number of attacks and initiative are quite low for their cost, and horrors are way more durable point for point. I'm not saying they're bad, but they don't fall neatly into 'hammer' or 'anvil', which leaves them in a kind of awkward position for me.

Nagash is a different consideration entirely - I mean being summoned by Nagash makes even blood knights amazing, though again if you want a defensive block you get way more durability out of summoning 450 points of horrors, and once you consider the number of attacks generated you'll get a lot more offensive punch out of vargheists.

Still, 5 archai should pack a reasonable punch, with some support utility in the crumble mitigation....

I don't know. For now I'm just happy with the models - for an undead legions/nagash/necromancer themed army they fit in aesthetically way better than the other monstrous infantry options (including ushabti).

I would certainly be interested in reading / watching some battle reports that make use of them.

 

[najo]

I've used them a bit now, and they do not replace crypt horrors or Varghiest. I would still take Crypt Horrors if I wanted an anvil or Varghists if I want a mobile hammer. Morghasts compete with varghiests more, but really they serve an entirely different role as I stated above.

 

[jbizzle113]

I actually think this group is better then Varghiest, yes varghiest can march on there one and have an extra attack but this unit has a better toughness, armour save and killing blow. the one less crumble is another plus. and even if you play then in a vampire count army with ld 10 you dont have to worry much about crumble.

 

[najo]

Because of cost, morghasts are a greater investment than Varghiests. Varghiests are way more expendable and can create a threat on a second front very quickly, morghasts can't do that. You use morghasts to create a barrier and place a true threat on a key position and hold it.

 

[crafty0ne]

Looking at there stat lines( High toughness, Good Armor) and there special rules (crumble reduction), makes me wonder if they were designed to be able to execute flank combo charges in support of other high value units that would otherwise be susceptible to crumble attrition during multiple unit combat. Then I remember that this is GW we are dealing with and purposefully designing something with an overall plan in mind might be a bit beyond them

But I think they may be very useful for this purpose. I would never try to pin down a high value target with zombies/skeletons/ghouls so that I could get a charge off with my vampire and his unit next turn. The unstable rule makes that strategy non-viable. However, I would be much more willing to pin down an enemy unit with Morghasts, and charge my vampire in, knowing that the enemy is not going to be picking up easy combat res from the morghasts, plus the crumble reduction mitigating any combat res they do get for that purpose. I can also see them being used in support of more offensive units to charge flanks and disrupt the enemy unit(as well as getting you extra combat res for that juicy flank charge). There hover and movement gives them good mobility in order to execute either of the tactics just mentioned.

So In short, I think they add a lot of utility to our army when viewed in that support role as well as adding in tacitical flexibility to do things that our undead and unstable troops were never capable of before.

 

[Von Blakesley]

being very, very new VC I just love the fact that they are tough/ hit well enough and help reduce crumble.

 

[Archamedius]

This unit is already a staple to my army, but I don't use the Archai, I use harbingers. I use harbingers for several reasons: First, they are a Specials Choice. Not competing with Tbats is huge for me, as I really like terrorghiests and mortis engines. Additionally they have 1 more attack at the cost of 1 point of armor save and 1 point of strength. For me, they are an anchor in the center line, flanked by tarpits and supported by necromancers. Their anti-crumble rule supported by a BSB really helps the center of the line hold, and they threaten core units just as well as archai (if not possibly slightly more so with the additional attack). With a couple necromancers or other LoV casters supporting them, I find them to be quite resilient and really improving the resilience of the troops around them.

Just the other day I was playing a wood elf, and managed to get a flank charge into a group of wild riders with a spirit host. After the first turn, he managed to reform to face me so I lose the combat res from the flank. I usually managed to kill one a turn from the spirit host, but his banner and musician meant he was still winning combat by one. The Morghasts negated that, and still helped a different combat out with their damage potential. Plus hover allows them some excellent mobility from the center of the line to threaten close range casters (death snipers, etc.) that are following your opponent's front line.

All in all, I really like them, and also enjoy the models. I think they are suitable imposing, look really good next to a block of skeletons, and have the punch and utility to really support our core infantry well.

EDIT: I do however respect that others may not like the models. To each his own, nothing to fault in that at all.

 

[Undying Scourge]

Yeah the Morghast models are a fine example of Games Workshop's brilliance at model design (even if the prices are a bit ridiculous).

 

[Archamedius]

Because of cost, morghasts are a greater investment than Varghiests. Varghiests are way more expendable and can create a threat on a second front very quickly, morghasts can't do that. You use morghasts to create a barrier and place a true threat on a key position and hold it.

You say that, but 2 Harbingers are only 22 points more than 3 vargheists.

The Vargheists only have 1 more wound total, have 1 less toughness and weapon skill, no armor and frenzy on ld 7. They do put out 4 additional attacks and 1 extra stomp. But conversely the Morghasts have terror and killing blow.

Ultimately as you said, I think they serve different purposes, and so the comparison isn't quite fair, but I think these two units are much closer in power and effectiveness than one might think. And I think the morghasts flexibility and utility can do a lot that the vargheists cannot for an army.

 

[Count Orlack]

Glad I came here tonight! Was looking for this very type of discussion! I Just bought a box of these tonight out of the Nagash bundle me FLGS is holding for me and I was wondering if I would actually play them or just have really cool display pieces.
Now my only concern is which set to build.

 

[najo]

You say that, but 2 Harbingers are only 22 points more than 3 vargheists.

The Vargheists only have 1 more wound total, have 1 less toughness and weapon skill, no armor and frenzy on ld 7. They do put out 4 additional attacks and 1 extra stomp. But conversely the Morghasts have terror and killing blow.

Ultimately as you said, I think they serve different purposes, and so the comparison isn't quite fair, but I think these two units are much closer in power and effectiveness than one might think. And I think the morghasts flexibility and utility can do a lot that the vargheists cannot for an army.

The key difference is the Varghiest movement. Like I said, Varghiests create a threat on a second front very quickly. Morghasts move at half that, so can't employ those type of tactics. Morghasts are going to stay in close and control enemy movement and keep your combats supported with their anti-crumble aura. So they really serve completely different roles.

 

[najo]

Glad I came here tonight! Was looking for this very type of discussion! I Just bought a box of these tonight out of the Nagash bundle me FLGS is holding for me and I was wondering if I would actually play them or just have really cool display pieces.
Now my only concern is which set to build.

Main decision point, do you need rank and file killers that come out of special? Build harbingers. You want a meatier, elite anti-armor unit and can afford points from rare? Go archai. Overall archai are awesome, but both units are great!

 

[Archamedius]

The key difference is the Varghiest movement. Like I said, Varghiests create a threat on a second front very quickly. Morghasts move at half that, so can't employ those type of tactics. Morghasts are going to stay in code and control enemy movement and keep your combats supported with their anti-crumbke aura. So they really serve completely different roles.

Yes I agree, and the more I think about it, the more I think the movement on Vargheists is the only thing that keeps Morghasts from becoming strictly superior in every aspect. Which is probably why they only gave them hover.

 

[Aedin]

Has anyone noticed that the one less crumble special rule reads like it stacks.

Opinions ?