Anyone else very interested in Kings of War all of a sudden?

LordTobiothan

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I dont want to speak for him but it has been my impression that mantic do not care what models you use and are actively making lesser faction armies to let old whf players use their warhammer models in kow.

They just want people playing the game.
 

Tawg

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I dont want to speak for him but it has been my impression that mantic do not care what models you use and are actively making lesser faction armies to let old whf players use their warhammer models in kow.

They just want people playing the game.

That's cool, and I can appreciate their love for the game, but I don't see the business model in that. Granted players who are so inclined to leave AoS are more than likely the ones to play life-time-bans on purchases of GW related products, so perhaps that helps them.

But I just can't into most Mantic models. Having a game system is cool, and having decent prices is nice, but I don't find the visual appeal in most of their stuff :ghost:
 

LordTobiothan

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That's cool, and I can appreciate their love for the game, but I don't see the business model in that. Granted players who are so inclined to leave AoS are more than likely the ones to play life-time-bans on purchases of GW related products, so perhaps that helps them.

But I just can't into most Mantic models. Having a game system is cool, and having decent prices is nice, but I don't find the visual appeal in most of their stuff :ghost:

Your making the same business mistake as GW, your looking at it through the quick buck you can make from throwaway players, rinse repeat.

Instead if creating a good game and letting word of mouth do your advertising to create a playerbase, and that playerbase will talk others into playing and when they look into it, they will buy mantic models to play the mantic game with their friends.

Those players a very unlikely to get into the game and start searching for other models, they just want the ones from mantic so they can start the hobby with their friends.

The best way to keep making sales is to make people like your company as much as your product.
 

Blutsauger

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GW don't make miniatures for a mass battle game. They make beautiful miniatures, and I've certainly bought more of them than I care to admit, but they are too intricate to paint when you've got 80+ skeletons, and they are priced too high for a massed battle game.

Mantic on the other hand, make great models for a mass battle game. They are simple, and cheap, and when you've got multiple 40+ regiments on the board, simple and cheap is better than gorgeous and expensive.
 

Tawg

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Well from a personal perspective, I just don't see KoW models as worth. If I don't like the aesthetics, I just don't see the point. But I guess that also may have to do with target market, because I am quite a bit older than I was when I started playing wargames, and I have much more experience with the hobby and everything.

I guess people starting out may care less for the models and simply be ok with which ever to play the game they are getting into, but I wasn't getting at what you're suggesting with quick cash-ins. I just don't think Mantic models are visually appealing, and I can't see spending as much money on models as we do in these hobbies and not getting models I find amazing looking. Granted I'm far more into the hobby portion than some people, and I can understand that people may like the game and not really care about model quality (God knows people paint their GW models without filling gaps or removing flash), so there are certainly players out there in that vein. Plus my opinion of Mantic's models being not up to par may not be the same as other people's, maybe people like their models a lot more than I do, but I don't find them to be terribly inspiring, which is the one thing I really want.
 

Blutsauger

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Well, if we look at just a skeleton core buying at retail prices it will cost me $480 for three units of 40.

The same models from Mantic will cost $150.

The savings are similar across the range.

It's just not practical to expect people to buy hundreds and hundreds of GW models to play games. People balk at the very idea. That's why WHFB failed. Kings of War allows easy use of multiple 40 model units, and prices their models accordingly. I can see Kings of War succeeding where WHFB has failed.
 

LordTobiothan

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Well from a personal perspective, I just don't see KoW models as worth. If I don't like the aesthetics, I just don't see the point. But I guess that also may have to do with target market, because I am quite a bit older than I was when I started playing wargames, and I have much more experience with the hobby and everything.

I guess people starting out may care less for the models and simply be ok with which ever to play the game they are getting into, but I wasn't getting at what you're suggesting with quick cash-ins. I just don't think Mantic models are visually appealing, and I can't see spending as much money on models as we do in these hobbies and not getting models I find amazing looking. Granted I'm far more into the hobby portion than some people, and I can understand that people may like the game and not really care about model quality (God knows people paint their GW models without filling gaps or removing flash), so there are certainly players out there in that vein. Plus my opinion of Mantic's models being not up to par may not be the same as other people's, maybe people like their models a lot more than I do, but I don't find them to be terribly inspiring, which is the one thing I really want.

You're actually neither of these games target marketing where profit is concerned. For GW your not even a customer as far as their business model is concerned.

KoW is happy to have you as a playing example and an end game fantasy for newer hobbiest who almost always start by buying their models from the system they are playing and even when they diverge still round out their original or new units with the familiar units from mantic (kows target marketing).

While at GW they just hope you quiet down and go away so they can flash the "big! New! BADASS" In front of the short attention span spoiled audience. They really dont like long term players because we ask of them, when they just want to market like they're selling beyblades.
 

Draykorinee

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Well, if we look at just a skeleton core buying at retail prices it will cost me $480 for three units of 40.

The same models from Mantic will cost $150.

The savings are similar across the range.

It's just not practical to expect people to buy hundreds and hundreds of GW models to play games. People balk at the very idea. That's why WHFB failed. Kings of War allows easy use of multiple 40 model units, and prices their models accordingly. I can see Kings of War succeeding where WHFB has failed.

Theoretically you could make three units of 40 for £50 with some cool dioramas, with 80 models you can stick 26 models on the right sized base. I know you can also make fillers for warhammer as well so you could bring those numbers down as well, but its not the same imo.
 

Daedle

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Wargames live and die by their critical mass - sure an independent wargame can plod along with a small but dedicated audience, but for a company like Mantic wanting to support a large model range the games really need to reach that critical mass. The more people play a game, the more other people get interested, the more the community grows. In V1 KoW never really reached that critical mass on a global scale (though there were definitely local communities which flipped completely to it) but we think that V2 will reach it :)

Sure, someone might just purchase a £25 rulebook (and any other expansions/accessories they want) and play with their GW army, but in the long term new wargamers they introduce to will probably buy a Mantic army, or when you want to start a new army you might be tempted by a Mantic one. Heck, for the upcoming additional army lists expansion we're specifically putting in units into each of the WHFB equivalent lists that Mantic produces, so that players wanting to expand their army can buy the Mantic ones.

Mantic are essentially playing the long game, in the nicest possible way ;)

In terms of the models, I find that a lot of that is down to personal preference. Seeing them in person really helps too since the photos of the older products tend not to be the best. I didn't think much of their Elves (which are a very marmite to say the least!) until I saw them in person. While I don't like every miniature that Mantic produces, I think some of them are great and their Ogres have my favourite Ogre design.

Mantic are also getting better and better all the time and I think they're really starting to crank out some absolutely top-notch miniatures. Here are some upcoming minis:
xdkD6b0l.jpg

YIffCEv.jpg


Hey Daedle, nice to meet you, I'm curious about two things. With free rules for KoW, are they not concerned about players, like say the ones unsatisfied by AoS, simply leaving their current system to play KoW but without really getting into the Mantic models? I guess if you guys have organized play maybe there are restrictions on off-brand models, but I don't really know anything about KoW or Mantic.

I'm also curious, I assume being part of the rules committee you're probably a more well seasoned player. Have you bothered to look at AoS at all, I'd be interested in your opinion if you've bothered.

I think I covered Mantics long term plan above ;) For official tournaments there aren't any restrictions on manufacturer. The only caveat is that you can't win "Best Mantic Army" since it is called Best Mantic Army ;) but Mantic are also concerned about legal challenges brought by another company if they publish photos of another companies models as promotion for a Mantic game.

In unofficial events then anything goes, naturally :) Mantic will still provide support and prizes even if you don't have any such restriction on a best army award.

I have looked at AoS and decided it wasn't a game for me for many reasons. Watching various battle reports has only confirmed my initial reservations. I don't want to dwell on it too much since I want to promote KoW on its benefits rather than the drawbacks of other games.

I can always go back and forth between 8th and the new ones. Some freedome is nice.

But I also want to play Kings of War. There's room for everyone.

Yes, absolutely :) There's nothing saying that you can't play both. WHFB 8th provides you with a gritty model-by-model blow-by-blow game while KoW provides you with a more abstracted mass battle game that flows much faster.

@Daedle Wow, thanks for taking the time to swing by here. Very cool of you.

Is KoW planning armybooks or the like? Some sort of release for factions? Or will stat line entries and such be in the Big (insert color of the cover here) Book?

Essentially, is 2 going to be a one stop shop?

Also, in the off chance that Cavatore is ever at a work retreat weekend or something, tell him Zacharias the Everliving is the dopest character in fantasy wargaming. Team Necrarch for life, witches.

Thanks man :)

The rulebook comes with 11 main army lists in it:
– Abyssal Dwarfs
– Basileans
– Dwarfs
– Elves
– Forces of the Abyss
– Forces of Nature
– Goblins
– Kingdoms of Men
– Ogres
– Orcs
– Undead

Each has several pages of background fluff in it. edit: I should also say that there's a "gamers edition" rulebook for £10 that contains just core rules and army lists - no fluff.

There will be a temporary (but legal & official) Twilight Kin list put up for download with the others when the game is released.

Additionally we have 4 expansions already planned;
- The first one, due for release later this year contains several new army lists, including Ratmen, The Herd, The Shattered Clans and a few others. You can use Skaven, Beastmen and Warriors of Chaos to represent those army lists :) We want to make sure that every WHFB player has an army list to cover their army in KoW. Each list won't be a 1:1 translation and might not cover every single unit, but the bulk of players collections can be used easily with some being used counts-as. We're currently running public beta testing the first three lists (Ratmen, League of Rhordia and The Herd) on the Mantic forums, with more to follow shortly.
- Another army lists version will contain The Northern Alliance (ice/norse themed human list with yetis), Twilight Kin (evil elves) and Ophidians (humans who make heavy use of necromancy).
- A campaign book to support the worldwide campaign later this year, containing background and possibly new scenarios.
- A super secret expansion by me and Matt Gilbert, that narrative driven players will like ;)

All of the army lists will be posted on the website for free download when the expansions are released.

Yeah, I was really hoping for some kind of Necromancer on Monster or Necromancer on Chariot unit to proxy the Mortis Engine as, but an Undead King on Wyrm might just have to do.

Well you can't cast spells while in melee, so any extra spells are kinda wasted since you want a unit like that in melee as soon as possible ;) It does have Surge, which is one of the most useful spells in the game. If you absolutely wanted more spells then you could drop the Ensorcelled Armour artefact and grab one like the Healing Charm or Da Boomstick, which grant Heal(3) and Lightning Bolt(3) respectively.
 

Razorfate

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The business model of mantic is clearly better than GW's. Thank you for information @Daedle. How can we join the Mantic committee?
 

Blutsauger

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Well you can't cast spells while in melee, so any extra spells are kinda wasted since you want a unit like that in melee as soon as possible ;) It does have Surge, which is one of the most useful spells in the game. If you absolutely wanted more spells then you could drop the Ensorcelled Armour artefact and grab one like the Healing Charm or Da Boomstick, which grant Heal(3) and Lightning Bolt(3) respectively.

Thanks, that sounds pretty close to how the Mortis Engine should work :)
 

Dragonet

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Thanks for all the info Daedle, I'll have to give Kings Of War a go! Love the wood golems, far more appealing to me than walking trees, and the Undead models look very tempting...
 

logan054

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That's cool, and I can appreciate their love for the game, but I don't see the business model in that. Granted players who are so inclined to leave AoS are more than likely the ones to play life-time-bans on purchases of GW related products, so perhaps that helps them.

But I just can't into most Mantic models. Having a game system is cool, and having decent prices is nice, but I don't find the visual appeal in most of their stuff :ghost:

I'm pretty much the same, I liked the zombie models but that's about as far as it goes. If your going to play a game just for the rules with whatever you have then you have plenty of other options floating about. The thing I dislike about the rules is that it really doesn't matter how many models you actually have on the table, the unit is nothing more than the counter. While Felix made some mistakes with his dwarf campaign, I do think he has the better rue set out of the 3. Unlike the mantic, the models he does have are very nice.

The release of models is very slow but he's happy to support non-warthrone armies.
 

lord marcus

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So anyway, does anyone have any ideas for using units like Mortis Engines in Kings of War?
Mantic will be releasing not-warhammer sub lists for kings of war so that people moving over can transition well
 

Draykorinee

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I'm pretty much the same, I liked the zombie models but that's about as far as it goes. If your going to play a game just for the rules with whatever you have then you have plenty of other options floating about. The thing I dislike about the rules is that it really doesn't matter how many models you actually have on the table, the unit is nothing more than the counter. While Felix made some mistakes with his dwarf campaign, I do think he has the better rue set out of the 3. Unlike the mantic, the models he does have are very nice.

The release of models is very slow but he's happy to support non-warthrone armies.
The newer models coming out are better. I really like the ogres they do too.
Also it's not just a counter, not needing to have 40 models for a unit means you can make amazing dioramas, it's no different than unit fillers in warhammer imo.
 

Razorfate

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I had already bought mantic zombies and skeletons for my whfb vampire counts army. They are way better than gw's zombies and skeletons, they are cheaper than gw too. I homestly did not like the elven models but i am sure they will be better if the playerbase grows.
 

snyggejygge

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Been playing it for a while already since I had a hard time getting warhammer games in (limited time),backed the Kickstarter for 2.0 but still had hopes with Warhammer 9:th edition, but with the release of Age of Sigmar I´m just going all in into koW
 

Draykorinee

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I had already bought mantic zombies and skeletons for my whfb vampire counts army. They are way better than gw's zombies and skeletons, they are cheaper than gw too. I homestly did not like the elven models but i am sure they will be better if the playerbase grows.

The elves really are Marmite, I think its the one people regularly bring up. It was also some of their first models.
 

Tawg

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@Daedle, well those models do look pretty nice. Although having a bit more of a look, I think one of the most off putting things is the example units paint schemes/jobs. The Undead especially have so much brass/bronze color and not terribly amazing looking, they remind me of the look of Mage Knight models.. and those aren't even made to be good, so having those come up as the first "association" may be detrimental to my opinion. But I looked at most of the armies, and nothing really catches my attention as to me wanting to dig in as a hobby project.

I appreciate the response, and hope your guy's (Or Mantics, I guess if you're not an official part of "them") plan works out decent for you, but I can't say I'll be joining anytime soon.

Well, if we look at just a skeleton core buying at retail prices it will cost me $480 for three units of 40.

The same models from Mantic will cost $150.

The savings are similar across the range.

It's just not practical to expect people to buy hundreds and hundreds of GW models to play games. People balk at the very idea. That's why WHFB failed. Kings of War allows easy use of multiple 40 model units, and prices their models accordingly. I can see Kings of War succeeding where WHFB has failed.

Yeahhh, but I don't think anyone looking at this purely from the perspective of "pieces sold separate for a game" is winning. If you're only interested in the game and not the models, I feel like buying models is going to be wasting your time/money no matter what game you're into, especially because unlike games that have trade value, much of the stuff we invest in greatly depreciates in value. If you aren't enjoying the hobby aspect you might as well not be interested in the price of the models at all.

Granted 480$ is much greater than 150$, I'd rather the look of the GW than Mantic. But I like modeling for the hobby more, so it's not just "buying into" a game for me, it's indulging my hobby. The game is certainly a point, it connects me to my friends and gets us together with something to do, but if that's all I was looking for, this wouldn't be my first choice of things to invest in.
 

Blutsauger

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Granted 480$ is much greater than 150$, I'd rather the look of the GW than Mantic. But I like modeling for the hobby more, so it's not just "buying into" a game for me, it's indulging my hobby. The game is certainly a point, it connects me to my friends and gets us together with something to do, but if that's all I was looking for, this wouldn't be my first choice of things to invest in.

I get what you're saying, but the difference in price point is so significant that I can't overlook it. I love lots of different games, but WHFB was so expensive that it made it really hard to indulge my other passions. That $330 difference would allow me to buy two large fleets for Star Wars: Armada, or add some more Romans or Britons to my ancients forces.

I mean, we're really just wasting bandwidth here because if you don't like the look then you don't like the look and that's not going to change, but I think there's a lot of merit for a company to produce a lower quality, more reasonably priced model range designed for use in massive regiments rather than the gorgeous models GW makes which are simply too intricate and expensive for massed battles.
 

Oppenheimer

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I bought some war machines for my dwarves and most of my ogres from Mantic. I purchased a bunch of zombies and skeletons too to pad out my existing army. It is definetly easier on the pocket book to order a bundle from Mantic. They have great bulk deals unlike GW which has "one click bundles" which are just the same price as buying things individually. I bought 10 elven kitties instead of buying 5 packs of sabretusks and saved a bundle. Granted they aren't remotely as fierce looking they are reasonable stand ins for something that isn't my primary army.

The thing Mantic is missing is big stuff. For example, If I have an ogre chariot from Mantic and next to him I field a unit of Mournfang calvary the difference really stands out. The elves have their drake riders and that one hero on dragon but that's pretty much it for big fancy models in the old stuff anyway. The new golems seem like a step in the right direction for that. Curious to see all the new models from 2e are like when they arrive on the storefront.

It might be pushing the line of copyright to just go out and do it but I'd love to just have a big list of all the minis that Mantic has and what their GW equivalents are so it's easier to shop around for various armies.

What Mantic has going for it is the price is better and the attitude is better and frankly GW needs more competition. That's why I pledged in the kickstarter for Dungeon Saga and Kings of War 2e. I'm looking forward to receiving my backer rewards for that stuff and putting them through their paces. I'm also supporting the Reaper minatures kickstarters of which Reaper Bones kickstarter number three just started.
 

Tawg

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I get what you're saying, but the difference in price point is so significant that I can't overlook it. I love lots of different games, but WHFB was so expensive that it made it really hard to indulge my other passions. That $330 difference would allow me to buy two large fleets for Star Wars: Armada, or add some more Romans or Britons to my ancients forces.

I mean, we're really just wasting bandwidth here because if you don't like the look then you don't like the look and that's not going to change, but I think there's a lot of merit for a company to produce a lower quality, more reasonably priced model range designed for use in massive regiments rather than the gorgeous models GW makes which are simply too intricate and expensive for massed battles.
Basically, but at least we're not at each others' throats over it (What'd be the point, we're both lords of undeath - hardly any chance to sap life :vampire1: ).

I'm not sure what I'm going to do about the whole basing thing. Round bases are nicer looking IMO, but that would prevent a bit of interaction with quite a few different things. I guess I could have "movement tray"-esque bases that the round ones slotted into if I ever wanted to play a game like KoW, that would work especially well since they don't use the model-per-model representation. Although I also am slightly sad to be losing square bases just because the unit fillers were really fun, and round bases don't really support that as much. But then again when you have units of over 15+ having a larger odd shaped base in the center represent multiple bases probably wouldn't be that much of a bother, especially if you can "break it down" when it needs to be interacted with on a model-per-model basis. So I'm still looking to make unit fillers, just in a different style now; Hopefully with the loose rules and everything, my opponents will be willing to allow me that.

I should look over the KoW rules though if my friends end up not liking AoS at all, because it probably is the best chance for a fun/loose system to use the models with. I just wouldn't place the game as the biggest priority as far as what's going to get me buying things.

It might be pushing the line of copyright to just go out and do it but I'd love to just have a big list of all the minis that Mantic has and what their GW equivalents are so it's easier to shop around for various armies.

Could GW even stop the players from making an unofficial list like this? I don't really see how, it's not like they are infringing on rights. They aren't like, taking the IP and making it theirs, it would just be a comparison? I mean they have those list of "old paint" charts, to keep track of which older paints are closest to the new line of paints, and I don't think GW has that tore down at all.
 

logan054

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The newer models coming out are better. I really like the ogres they do too.
Also it's not just a counter, not needing to have 40 models for a unit means you can make amazing dioramas, it's no different than unit fillers in warhammer imo.

As true as that maybe they aren't exactly amazing either. I like the zombies! I think an interesting question is why would you pick to use kings of war over warthrone when both are in english. If you already have models (which we all do) then how supported the model range doesn't really matter, as with warhammer, people will use whatever models they want anyway.

I've read the rules of kings of war, i just seems like the rules would be better suited to something on a much scale of model (like warmaster), I'm not really a fan of these preset unit sizes and laying down tokens next to units. So if the dioramas are no different to unit fillers, why does it even matter? If the rules didn't matter then I'd be playing AoS.
 
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