Anyone else very interested in Kings of War all of a sudden?

[LordTobiothan]

I play games by the rules. Only time I do RAI is when it's not worth arguing about rules and the RAW support the RAI. I never house rule.

What were the issues you ran into with movement? We found when we had an issue and thought we broke the game, careful study proved the games was right and we all had ah-ha moments. The game honestly has a ton of cool tactics I wish were in 8th. I'm being straight up with you.

Go try the game out. Seriously. Be open to it.

Things like breaking unit formations, where the most advantageous way to set up your units are L shaped to set up attacks, or flying V to tar pit.

Nothing says you have to stay in block formation, so if you charge as an L you can have your models hit front and flank at the same time around your opponents block, letting all of them fight, while your opponent doesnt get the attacks from the guys in the middle of his unit or the other side/back.

One of my friends asked if you have to stop once you reach within 0.5 inches of a model during a charge and raw, you just cant pass through the unit, so the L works fine.

The flying V protects your front flank and rear from block infantry because they wont be able to put many models within range of attacking even after a pile in because you have point edges that would require them to move through some of your unit to attack the rest, in simulation i had a duck formation of 30 zombies hold 2 units in front and flank all game by doing this.

It also says if your within 3" of an enemy you can only hold position or retreat, so if i charge one unit and move some of my models 2.5 from another, There only options are to pile in vs 3 models or retreat.

None of this makes any sense in a wargame and most of my opponents really want a system where ranked blocks are what should be fielded, not whatever strange formation gives you the most coverage and your opponent the least coverage at any given time.

 

[Tawg]

Things like breaking unit formations, where the most advantageous way to set up your units are L shaped to set up attacks, or flying V to tar pit.

Nothing says you have to stay in block formation, so if you charge as an L you can have your models hit front and flank at the same time around your opponents block, letting all of them fight, while your opponent doesnt get the attacks from the guys in the middle of his unit or the other side/back.

One of my friends asked if you have to stop once you reach within 0.5 inches of a model during a charge and raw, you just cant pass through the unit, so the L works fine.

The flying V protects your front flank and rear from block infantry because they wont be able to put many models within range of attacking even after a pile in because you have point edges that would require them to move through some of your unit to attack the rest, in simulation i had a duck formation of 30 zombies hold 2 units in front and flank all game by doing this.

It also says if your within 3" of an enemy you can only hold position or retreat, so if i charge one unit and move some of my models 2.5 from another, There only options are to pile in vs 3 models or retreat.

None of this makes any sense in a wargame and most of my opponents really want a system where ranked blocks are what should be fielded, not whatever strange formation gives you the most coverage and your opponent the least coverage at any given time.

Well if this is the face of power gaming now, then we know how to respond to it as we always have. Roll our eyes at people who don't want friends.

Even previously we had to deal with the "Frontage" of our units vs their ranks back for bonuses. Except now the bonuses don't exist, and it's largely irrelevant. But knowing to not make your unit into a circular blob that has no advantage.. makes sense.

Also you mentioned with your "V Formation" that the unit had models 2.5" away from each other, so were you in a formation like.. say

/\/\/\/\/\ Like so? So multiple points to "brunt" the damage by hiding your units further back?

Because if the points are 2.5" apart, there is nothing stopping anyone from piling into those little crevasse between the points. But otherwise, I don't really understand what you're suggesting besides that a wide frontage blocks people from moving past you when they might try. But people did stupid sh*t like the 3 wide billion deep zombies that could "Swing" their way across the board with wheel movement because 'lolwhynot'.

Maybe I don't understand your issues, but it seems to me like less things that are ruining play entirely and more like development of potential ways to play (Perhaps unfun ways for your opponents, I am still a little unclear on your examples).

 

[LordTobiothan]

You act like my models have to be lined up in any way, i can line them up so you can only get to 3 models in a 30 man unit without much thought, units no longer have to be back to front or side to side, any manner of next to each other is acceptable now.

And powergaming is misinterpreting the rules for your benefit, not playing the rules how they are written, but in a different way then someone else read them.

Just because you feel your opinion is the majority doesn't make true, nor does it make anyone elses interpretation unsportsmanlike.

To quote many of aos' advocates, wonky unit formations is just how the game is now, if you dont like it then aos is not for you.

 

[Blutsauger]

So anyway, does anyone have any ideas for using units like Mortis Engines in Kings of War?

 

[Sception]

I have been interested in KoW 2.0 for about 6 months now, ever since we started to get firm rumors on both the overall shape of Age of Sigmar and that both games would be hitting at about the same time.

I honestly don't even see them as direct competitors anymore. It's like comparing splatoon to call of duty, yeah they're both online multiplayer first person shooters, but they're still very different games with very different styles and tones. If both games were good and interesting, I'd happily play the same models in both, one for a wacky skirmish game and one for a more serious battles game.

I'm just not yet convinced that AoS is any good, for reasons over-discussed elsewhere (and for the record I haven't written it off yet, either), or KoW 2.0 at all interesting - I found the first edition of that game to be rather bland and boring, but I think that was everyone's complaint about KoW, so I'm holding out hope that they've considerably zazzed it up for the new edition.

 

[Zephyr]

I'm anxious to see where 2.0 is going. I was never interested in KOW to be completely honest but I need my mass battle fix darn it!
If it's a letdown I might just scale up my Warmaster or look for historical rulesets that come close. I own a lot of Warhammer Historical books which are great. Lot of work though so maybe just sticking with 7th.

For tourney purposes I hope this will do.

 

[Draykorinee]

I'm anxious to see where 2.0 is going. I was never interested in KOW to be completely honest but I need my mass battle fix darn it!
If it's a letdown I might just scale up my Warmaster or look for historical rulesets that come close. I own a lot of Warhammer Historical books which are great. Lot of work though so maybe just sticking with 7th.

For tourney purposes I hope this will do.

Well, supposedly we'll know in 4 days :S I'll just stick to 8th if my friend and I can't get on with Kow or Aos.

 

[Quinten]

I have no interest in AoS in the same way I have no interest in Rockem Sockem Robots or Hungry Hungry Hippos.

Hey hungry Hungry Hippos is a great game. I've played that game for hours. Don't beak Hungry Hungry Hippos.

PS. It's more fun if you sing 'Hungry Hungry HIPPOS, Hungry Hungry HIPPOS' the entire time. :tongue:

 

[Draykorinee]

Hey hungry Hungry Hippos is a great game. I've played that game for hours. Don't beak Hungry Hungry Hippos.

PS. It's more fun if you sing 'Hungry Hungry HIPPOS, Hungry Hungry HIPPOS' the entire time. :tongue:

If you do that you can add +2 to your total ball count...

 

[logan054]

I'm not really sure about kings of war, warthrone which is now released in English looks like a better alternative which actually has rules for vampire counts.

 

[LordTobiothan]

So anyway, does anyone have any ideas for using units like Mortis Engines in Kings of War?

Use it as any of the ghost units, its basically just a pile of ghosts anyway and its base size makes it a perfect troop of 10, and I think 3 large infantry are on that same size too, so wraiths can work.

Since you do not remove models from a unit they can be represented by one solid piece depicting the unit, as long as the footprint is right.

 

[Blutsauger]

Right, but the units line up differently. My mortis engine would spend the whole game walking around sideways.

 

[Blutsauger]

Maybe I could just use my Hexwraiths as wraith infantry?

 

[Draykorinee]

I was down my local Geek shop, its not a licensed GW store but its basically 1/2 the store GW, its a big part of his revenue. I walked in today to get some pink paint for my pink Kingdoms of Men army scheme

Saw the box for AoS and asked him how things were going, he gave me the look of death. Got in to a long chat and from a business pov he is gutted, he has had barely any pre-orders and says he will be losing a good revenue stream in army books and rules. From a consumer pov he understands the free rules are a godsend, but the games they have been playing have been completely unbalanced or boring even with house rules and sportsmanship. From a business pov he feels the numbers of models he will sell will go down mainly due from a lack of interest in the actual game but also due to the size of the armies not being so large, once again from a consumer pov he understands the barrier to entry will be lower so yay for them.

He got off the phone to Mantic yesterday and was blown away by how open they are, giving him release schedules and plans for the next few months when GW kept him in the dark with regards to AoS and what it will be, meaning he has stocked up on things that he now has to either send back or won't sell.

So they will now be starting Kings of War and bringing in more mantic stock.

This isn't to hate on GW/AoS I havent tried the game and I don't dislike GW, just was an interesting conversation.

 

[Adam_Barrow]

I just heard Priestly has joined up with the Mantic developers. Can somebody confirm? Allesio and Priestly did some of my favorite stuff from gw. That sounds like a dream team. Now if only the Perry's can get on board.

 

[Infernal Skull]

Priestly wrote the forward for the KOW V2 rulebook. I don't know if he actually works for Mantic now, or if he'll be writing their rules in the future.

 

[Daedle]

I'm one of the members of the KoW Rules Committee*. I was checking through various forums to see what discussions are springing up about KoW across the Warhammer community. Stumbled on this thread and figured I should log in to my old account, say hello and answer any questions you guys might have

Matt Gilbert, head of the RC, wrote an article on the Mantic Blog (can't link yet but just search for Mantic Blog) which talks through the basics of the game. Personally I'm more of a modeller than a gamer (though I do game hard when I get chance!) so really enjoy the multibasing aspect of it.

If anyone has any questions then by all means put them up and I'll answer as best I can!

Right, but the units line up differently. My mortis engine would spend the whole game walking around sideways.

I think the best proxy for something like this would be the new Revenant King on Undead Wyrm with the Wings upgrade. It's got great melee output, high nerve and is Inspiring to units within 6". The normal base is 50x50mm, but with heroes and monsters you have permission to use whatever base is necessary for the model It's kind of an unwritten rule in KoW that etheral spirits have Defence 6, so you could always take the Ensorcelled Armour magic artefact to bump the Wyrms defence up to 6, making it an extremely tough nut to crack!

Maybe I could just use my Hexwraiths as wraith infantry?

Soul Reaver cavalry I think - Defence 6 and very hard hitting!

I just heard Priestly has joined up with the Mantic developers. Can somebody confirm? Allesio and Priestly did some of my favorite stuff from gw. That sounds like a dream team. Now if only the Perry's can get on board.

As Infernal Skull said, Rick only wrote the foreword to the new book, and you can read some of it on the Mantic blog. He wasn't paid to write that, so I can promise you that his very kind words are out of the goodness of his heart!

Kings of War was written by Alessio Cavatore, and 2nd edition saw a collaborative effort between Alessio and the Rules Committee. There's no small thanks due to the KoW community too, who really helped shape the game through iterative public beta testing and feedback

He got off the phone to Mantic yesterday and was blown away by how open they are, giving him release schedules and plans for the next few months when GW kept him in the dark with regards to AoS and what it will be, meaning he has stocked up on things that he now has to either send back or won't sell.

Mantic are really refreshingly open and honest with the community. The CEO, Ronnie Renton, in particular is a sieve when it comes to leaking information! It's become quite common for the studio head to sit in on public seminars because Ronnie tends to reveal even more to the public than he tells the studio head... Ronnie posts regularly in Mantic Facebook groups and responds honestly to everything thrown his way. Even when Mantic makes mistakes (and everyone does from time to time, Mantic definitely included), they absolutely own up to it publicly and do everything they can to set things right for everyone.

*we're a small group of community volunteers who help develop the rules. We were instrumental in writing 2nd edition and ran the public beta testing of the lists.

 

[Draykorinee]

If anyone has any questions then by all means put them up and I'll answer as best I can!
.

How did you stop the zombies sniffing asses? I have real issues with bum sniffers with my 80 mantic zombies

 

[Daedle]

Sadly it's a recurring problem. We tried giving them a shower but bits of them just kept slopping off :tongue:

 

[Blutsauger]

I think the best proxy for something like this would be the new Revenant King on Undead Wyrm with the Wings upgrade. It's got great melee output, high nerve and is Inspiring to units within 6". The normal base is 50x50mm, but with heroes and monsters you have permission to use whatever base is necessary for the model It's kind of an unwritten rule in KoW that etheral spirits have Defence 6, so you could always take the Ensorcelled Armour magic artefact to bump the Wyrms defence up to 6, making it an extremely tough nut to crack!

Yeah, I was really hoping for some kind of Necromancer on Monster or Necromancer on Chariot unit to proxy the Mortis Engine as, but an Undead King on Wyrm might just have to do.

 

[Adam_Barrow]

@Daedle Wow, thanks for taking the time to swing by here. Very cool of you.

Is KoW planning armybooks or the like? Some sort of release for factions? Or will stat line entries and such be in the Big (insert color of the cover here) Book?

Essentially, is 2 going to be a one stop shop?

Also, in the off chance that Cavatore is ever at a work retreat weekend or something, tell him Zacharias the Everliving is the dopest character in fantasy wargaming. Team Necrarch for life, witches.

 

[LordTobiothan]

@Daedle Wow, thanks for taking the time to swing by here. Very cool of you.

Is KoW planning armybooks or the like? Some sort of release for factions? Or will stat line entries and such be in the Big (insert color of the cover here) Book?

Essentially, is 2 going to be a one stop shop?

Also, in the off chance that Cavatore is ever at a work retreat weekend or something, tell him Zacharias the Everliving is the dopest character in fantasy wargaming. Team Necrarch for life, witches.

All the armies will be in the back of the main rulebook, other suppliments will have fluff, everything needed for the game is in the one book though.

 

[Adam_Barrow]

Groovy. Thanks, homie.

 

[Oppenheimer]

Go try the game out. Seriously. Be open to it.

I agree. I'm excited about the changes as some of the old rules were too cumbersome. I can always go back and forth between 8th and the new ones. Some freedome is nice.

But I also want to play Kings of War. There's room for everyone.

It's not like you have to rebase your guys if you don't want.

 

[Tawg]

I'm one of the members of the KoW Rules Committee*. I was checking through various forums to see what discussions are springing up about KoW across the Warhammer community. Stumbled on this thread and figured I should log in to my old account, say hello and answer any questions you guys might have

Hey Daedle, nice to meet you, I'm curious about two things. With free rules for KoW, are they not concerned about players, like say the ones unsatisfied by AoS, simply leaving their current system to play KoW but without really getting into the Mantic models? I guess if you guys have organized play maybe there are restrictions on off-brand models, but I don't really know anything about KoW or Mantic.

I'm also curious, I assume being part of the rules committee you're probably a more well seasoned player. Have you bothered to look at AoS at all, I'd be interested in your opinion if you've bothered.