Are Vampires only human?

[woodster17]

Why just the point of view of an Elf? There needs to be mutual benefit, from the progenitor as well as the get.

Of the Elder Races Genevieve had a Vampiric Dwarf. However, it's best to remember that Genevieve is a very old series and written in an era when fluff (from the Black Library in particular) was taken somewhat less seriously and more focused on entertainment than accuracy. There are certainly many conflictions now with regard to new canon.

I'm quite sad- I've collected everything ever produced by the BL on fantasy (just like stories to be honest) as well as every official GW source book. High Elves are my second army too so I've read a fair amount on them. There is no precedent for Vampiric Elves (at least on Ulthuan, I despise Druchii so those debauched so and so's are undoubtedly capable of anything). From the Elf point of view much of the path of necromancy is based upon a fear of your own mortality, which is why Elves are not tempted by dark magic in general. They're not immortal, one Phoenix King has died of old age (Caradryel the Peacemaker) so it's safe to presume that most Elves would live to a similar age all things considered unless they die in battle. There is precedent (Alith Anar) for Elves to live countless thousands of years although quite why some are seemingly ageless and some die is beyond me. This is primarily why Vampirism would not appeal to an Elf.

Secondly consider this. It's been stated several times that every High Elf born has a natural aptitude for magic (in the form of High Magic- Qhaysh). They are the only race other than the Slann with the necessary mental fortitude to adapt to the gift of being able to control and use High Magic. As such, when one is blessed with the ability to learn and control Qhaysh, which is completely devoid of taint from Chaos, the effects would be catastrophic if you willingly or otherwise submitted to the wind's antithesis (Dhar) in it's pure unadulterated form- Chaos. As we know, Dhar is controlled by those involved in Necromancy and is the root of the Dark Magic used by Vampires. I can't see how combining the raw Chaotic form of Dhar with the refined pure wind of Qhaysh would result in anything other than a cataclysmic explosion (or implosion) unless you were a magician with the ability of Teclis. It'd be impossible to control the combination of those two winds combining- you'd go nuclear.

Finally, you'd have to consider the benefit of giving (or attempting) to give the Blood Kiss to an Elf on a Vampires part. If the Elf is unwilling (as they would be) I can't justify why a Vampire would do it simply out of spite. You're just giving an already potent warrior (all High Elves are required to spend many many years in militia service even if they're not a part of Ulthuan's professional armies) the abilities of a supernatural powerhouse. Elves already benefit from Speed of Asuryan in game form, they'd become like The Flash if you gave them Vampiric powers of resiliency, strength and fortitude. What's the benefit for a Vampire having a vengeful Elf attempting to gain retribution? This is why the Blood Kiss is granted almost solely to humans, they're easy to manipulate. You want them to buy in to carrying on the ethos of the bloodline. You want them to eventually come around to the idea of seeing the progenitor as a parental figure and be grateful for the gift. Elder Races are too proud to see it that way. They'd either tear themselves apart in a rage or chase you across the globe to gain some modicum of revenge.

However, since the Druchii are far removed from the happy effects of natural abilities involving High Magic (they actively employ Dark Magic and Dhar in their rituals) I can envisage Dark Elves being tempted to Vampirism. After all, figures like Morathi and Hellebron are obsessed with eternal youth and make pacts with daemons to prolong their lives. Why not remove the issues of dealing with Chaos and gain eternal life without having to bathe in the Cauldrons of Khaine constantly. I've no idea how the rest of the Druchii society would take it but they'd hardly be in a position to argue with someone of the sorcerous ability of Morathi is she were to become Undead. She wouldn't have to worry about a wind of magic conflict either.

 

[hairyjeff]

I don't know about Elves, but GW once issued a Dwarf Vampire model- I have it, it looks a bit like the Sesame Street Count!. So they at least envisaged the possibility of non-human Vampires. Apart from the possible magical conflict, I imagine any creature could be turned- but I'm not sure why they would be.

 

[woodster17]

This is true, although Dwarves have this inherent magical resistance if the Vampire was sufficiently powerful they could probably grant a Dwarf the Blood Kiss. It'd be kind of pointless anyway I'd imagine. The Dwarf's morality compass would go haywire and he/she'd take the Slayer Oath. Then you'd have a Vampiric slayer roaming around presumably after the Vampire who gave him the blood kiss in the first case. One of them would die horribly That'd be fun to read about though!

 

[Shareya]

This is true, although Dwarves have this inherent magical resistance if the Vampire was sufficiently powerful they could probably grant a Dwarf the Blood Kiss. It'd be kind of pointless anyway I'd imagine. The Dwarf's morality compass would go haywire and he/she'd take the Slayer Oath. Then you'd have a Vampiric slayer roaming around presumably after the Vampire who gave him the blood kiss in the first case. One of them would die horribly That'd be fun to read about though!

XD! That would be a really good read!

Edit: Also very good post Woody, was a enjoyable read!

 

[Magpie]

Why just the point of view of an Elf? There needs to be mutual benefit, from the progenitor as well as the get.

As I alluded to earlier the idea is that the Vampire would gain the services of Elven Cavalary

However, since the Druchii are far removed from the happy effects of natural abilities involving High Magic (they actively employ Dark Magic and Dhar in their rituals) I can envisage Dark Elves being tempted to Vampirism.

That makes it easy then I can simply use Elven Cavalry but with Dark Elves as the riders.

The ultimate aim is to be able to explain why the undead riders of my Blood Knights are female. Elves seem to be the most likely to have female cavalry.

 

[woodster17]

Cheers Sainna! Love the fantasy background, the depth of detail is so fun for having debates on !

Magpie- Ah I see. Kind of like Walach Harkon gaining an order of elite knights when he slaughtered and resurrected pretty much the entirety of Blood Keep? Except you'll be having Elves obviously instead of men. That's a nice way to go with your armies fluff.

Druchii would actually be a very cool way of looking at it. Female Elves are extremely prominent in their society because of the importance (and sadistic 'evilness' for wont of a better word) of the Cult of Khaine and the Witch Elves/Brides of Khaine. Morathi's coven of Sorceresses are prime examples too. The Malus Darkblade series was a little hit and miss when it came to being exact and precise with existing background material but it did highlight that daughters of nobles for example can be equally as powerful/cruel and devastating on the battlefield as their male conuterparts. From a magical point of view, since during The Sundering the Druchii throughout Nagarythe and the other Elven Kingdoms worshipped cults of the Cyarathai (Khaine, Atharti etc...), all are seemingly attuned to Dark Magic or Dhar in decent quantities too. That would make the transition to necromancy/vampirism relatively simple. It's a good idea, best of luck with it.

 

[Irisado]

OK but why tho'?

The Dark Elves show that there are lures that can lead elves to the Dark Powers so why not succumb to other temptations?

As has been explained in some detail above, it's just not in the interest of Elves to become Vampires. Humans have different temptations. Remember, a lot of humans want to prolong their life, or crave power, and a mortal life simply isn't enough for them, hence why they are more easily tempted, or lured.

Regarding Dark Elves, I don't see them as being particularly susceptible to the lure of vampirism either. They are far more interested in killing, and slavery than they are in prolonging their own lives as far as I understand their motivations.

It really is humans of all types who are drawn to vampirism, and necromancy for that matter.

 

[Magpie]

That is only if you assume the ONLY benefit of vampirism is an extended life.
There are plenty of other reasons "They are far more interested in killing .... " plenty of that to be had in an army of the night.

For even the high elves being part of an army that resides in the foothills of the mountains that house the Dwarves could be an attraction, the whole "War of the Beard" thing that may still leave some animosities.

 

[woodster17]

I think in general Dark Elves have a different mindset to High Elves. High Elves are more philosophical and understand the patterns their race is going through in terms of its place in the world. The are extremely long lived but are content with still being mortal.

Dark Elves however are utterly obsessed with power and will barter/attempt to manipulate whoever or whatever to obtain that power (demons included). Consider also that the Hag-Sorceress Morathi, her coven, Hellebron and her witch elves are fixated with immortality- to the extent that Morathi has bargained with Slaanesh and regularly bathes in the Cauldron of Blood to preserve her youth. Hellebron begs every year to be granted the right to bathe and spends much of the year shriveled like a hag before she can rejuvenate herself. They both wish to live forever. Add to that the nature of Dark Power (Dhar) that Morathi wields when casting her magics and vampirism isn't such a crazy step. Dark Elf society is so inherently suffused with Dark Magic that it wouldn't be too difficult a step for them to take. After all, immortality would give them an infinite amount of time to kill, raid and slave to their hearts content. It's not like the Witch Elves of Khaine and other cults would want for blood either, they literally swim in the stuff. It'd be quite a natural transition.

 

[Shareya]

I think in general Dark Elves have a different mindset to High Elves. High Elves are more philosophical and understand the patterns their race is going through in terms of its place in the world. The are extremely long lived but are content with still being mortal.

Dark Elves however are utterly obsessed with power and will barter/attempt to manipulate whoever or whatever to obtain that power (demons included). Consider also that the Hag-Sorceress Morathi, her coven, Hellebron and her witch elves are fixated with immortality- to the extent that Morathi has bargained with Slaanesh and regularly bathes in the Cauldron of Blood to preserve her youth. Hellebron begs every year to be granted the right to bathe and spends much of the year shriveled like a hag before she can rejuvenate herself. They both wish to live forever. Add to that the nature of Dark Power (Dhar) that Morathi wields when casting her magics and vampirism isn't such a crazy step. Dark Elf society is so inherently suffused with Dark Magic that it wouldn't be too difficult a step for them to take. After all, immortality would give them an infinite amount of time to kill, raid and slave to their hearts content. It's not like the Witch Elves of Khaine and other cults would want for blood either, they literally swim in the stuff. It'd be quite a natural transition.

Yet can anyone here think of a single Dark elf vampire? I really can't and due to that I am still forced to believe that they can not be turned or the there simply is no desire.

Also it was pointed out ( and also written in a few story's ) that Druchii blood is bad for vampys and they tend to avoid it. But who knows, maybe soon GW will give us elf vamps just because they can x)

 

[Magpie]

A little bit out of our exact lore but still reasonably similar.

http://www.lomion.de/cmm/vampelf.php

 

[Irisado]

That is only if you assume the ONLY benefit of vampirism is an extended life.
There are plenty of other reasons "They are far more interested in killing .... " plenty of that to be had in an army of the night.

For even the high elves being part of an army that resides in the foothills of the mountains that house the Dwarves could be an attraction, the whole "War of the Beard" thing that may still leave some animosities.

I don't agree.

The Elves already have mastery over magic, and have an extremely long lifespan. Their priorities also differ immensely from human races. The attraction to vampirism isn't there regardless of how you try to cut it.

I think in general Dark Elves have a different mindset to High Elves. High Elves are more philosophical and understand the patterns their race is going through in terms of its place in the world. The are extremely long lived but are content with still being mortal.

Dark Elves however are utterly obsessed with power and will barter/attempt to manipulate whoever or whatever to obtain that power (demons included). Consider also that the Hag-Sorceress Morathi, her coven, Hellebron and her witch elves are fixated with immortality- to the extent that Morathi has bargained with Slaanesh and regularly bathes in the Cauldron of Blood to preserve her youth. Hellebron begs every year to be granted the right to bathe and spends much of the year shriveled like a hag before she can rejuvenate herself. They both wish to live forever. Add to that the nature of Dark Power (Dhar) that Morathi wields when casting her magics and vampirism isn't such a crazy step. Dark Elf society is so inherently suffused with Dark Magic that it wouldn't be too difficult a step for them to take. After all, immortality would give them an infinite amount of time to kill, raid and slave to their hearts content. It's not like the Witch Elves of Khaine and other cults would want for blood either, they literally swim in the stuff. It'd be quite a natural transition.

I agree that Dark Elves have a different mindset, but, if anything, they're going to be more tied into the forces of Chaos, and making bargains with the ruinous powers. You allude to this in your post, and there's more than enough Dark magic flowing from the Chaos Wastes to satiate the desire of the Dark Elves in my view.

A Dark Elf vampire is a remote possibility, owing to the Dark magic connection, but I still don't think that there's much in the way of evidence to suggest that they would take this option at the expense of bargaining with Chaos. Chaos is a far more natural partner for Dark Elves.

 

[Shareya]

I find myself agreeing with Irisado again x)

 

[woodster17]

It's also a more capricious partner. Once you're a vampire, you're a vampire. Once you bargain with Chaos (and manipulate it like Morathi and co. do) you need to continue to do so... and you're on the list. I can't imagine that Slaanesh feels great about having granted a whole coven of Dark Elf sorceresses incredible power without them actually becoming Champions of Chaos.

I rather feel it would make sense on Morathi's part if she ever felt the need. I know some people realise that GW don't take the Liber Necris seriously but it has some useful explanations on the soul. Chaos looks to procure the soul through service in life, Undeath and Vampirism binds it to the person forever. It'd be a neat way to ensure that you don't spend eternity in damnation if you die.

 

[Magpie]

The attraction to vampirism isn't there regardless of how you try to cut it.

Unless the vampirism was a means to an end, in which case the attraction isn't to vampirism but rather as a method of achieving an otherwise unattainable goal.

 

[Wolfen]

I always felt that Dark Elves would look down on Necromancy and all things which derive from it. Since Nagash created it by perverting what he learned from the captured Druchii so long ago, they would view it as a less perfect, fully human creation. Why would they be interested in anything that a human did. Just as the colleges of magic are lesser, more manageable forms of High Magic, designed to allow humans some form of magical ability, Necromancy is a lesser form of Dark Magic, created by humans for their purposes. The inherent weaknesses associated with it would also be a turn off. All elves see themselves as superior to humans in every way. I think that would even go for a super powered, blood fueled version of humanity. In the end, it's still a corrupted form of humanity. No elf, dark or otherwise, would willingly submit to such a human thing.

 

[woodster17]

Vampires aren't obliged to use necromancy by any means, reflected in our rule set with the Lore of Death and Lore of Shadows. Just because you become a Vampires it doesn't necessitate raising the dead. Prior to 7th this was obvious with the fact that Blood Dragons suffered the -1 magic level. They were designed as pure warriors. Of course, bloodlines has since been besmirched by GW but I can't think of one logical reason why Dark Elves couldn't take the benefits of vampirism and apply it to their current magical prowess. Necromancy uses specific forms of Dhar, which we know as Dark Magic. The Dark Elf sorceresses already have a command of Dark Magic; becoming a Vampire would grant the benefits of immortality but wouldn't require anything to do with necromancy if they didn't want to bother with it.

Dark Elves are already a corrupted form of the Asur. It's a mean to and ends, becoming a Vampire would add to their superhuman traits, grant them immortality while not requiring them to conform to the generic Vampire stereotypes with regard to Necromancy and undead creatures. I can understand your point but it's not so far fetched. If you're willing to deal with daemons to augment your power you're dredging the barrel as it is. Nagash may have learned the secrets of Dark Magic from the Druchii back in old Nehekhara, but the abilities have become much more potent in the intervening years.

 

[Magpie]

The inherent weaknesses associated with it would also be a turn off. All elves see themselves as superior to humans in every way. I think that would even go for a super powered, blood fueled version of humanity. In the end, it's still a corrupted form of humanity. No elf, dark or otherwise, would willingly submit to such a human thing.

That doesn't really follow though does it?

I mean a Vampire is only a corrupted form of what they were before so making an Elf an Vampire doesn't make them a corrupted form of humanity but rather a corrupted form of elf.

Surely the enhanced physical strength that comes with vampirism would be a lure to some elves, given that is the one area they are inferior to humans?

 

[Wolfen]

Vampires may not have to use necromancy, the magic form, but they are 100% necromantic creatures. They were born from the study of necromancy, they are a perversion of human studies of magic. It is inherently tied to humanity in its very creation.

Gunpowder weapons are superior in strength to bows but elves havent adopted those, cannons in particular. Why would they not adopt those in order to make their armies stronger? Or the study of adding rune enhancements to their weapons? Surely given their natural command of magic elves would be able to master that dwarven art. They certainly have the time to devote to such a study.

The way I see it elves stay away from gunpowder and runes for the same reason they would avoid vampirism. It comes from inferior races and therefore is inferior.

 

[Shareya]

Most Dark elves are not willing to deal with demons There are some Slaanshiness here and there but they are fairly actively hunted down.

Wait, what. Why do you believe that a Druchii who usually has hundreds of years of physical training under his or her belt is weaker then a human?

Anyways the quote:

"She was careful not to gulp down the blood that burst into her mouth, having seen the effects it had had on one of her handmaidens who hadn’t been so cautious. The vampire had collapsed as if drugged, and had yet to awaken."

 

[woodster17]

I think Magpie was referring to the T3 value that represents the all Elves in the rules. They can be strong but they're kind of brittle. It's often mentioned that muscularity is a rare trait in an Elf, only really seen in the White Lions of Chrace. I'm sure they have an incredibly wiry strength of course though, and a rare agility and dexterity which doesn't necessitate brute force.

Comparing Dwarves and Elves is very difficult, despite them both being Elder Races. Despite the qualities of the Asur, the Dwarves are far superior engineers. A LOT of Elven architecture incorporates some manner of high magic in it's construction (i.e the floating castles of Saphery and the White Tower being a prime example). While the Dwarves obviously use runic practices to increase the potency of their designs, their engineering abilites are second to none. Elves simply cannot replicate the weapons of the Dwarves in the same sense that Dwarves cannot comprehend the achingly beautiful cultural quirks of the Elves, not to mention the refusal to even try to use magic in it's raw form (without the use of an anvil that is). The bow/gunpowder comparison is a bad one. Bows are not as powerful, but the Asrai Waywatchers get killing blow rule for being suitably skilled. Bows are also more accurate and more reliable. They don't blow up for one thing. Also, why bother firing cannons at people when you can annihilate them with powerful magic? Many of the devices created by other races primarily exist because they can't wield magic like the Asur and therefore needs more crude means of firing/building etc... Ulthuan is suffused with magic, it permeates every level of every kingdom. The Elves can manipulate it with ease. They don't need gunpowder. If by logic that means they don't need vampirism I understand you're viewpoint. I've already stated that it would be a magical catastrophe to combine Qhaysh with Dhar. The Dark Elves however, are corrupted and evil. I just see Druchii who are capable of sacrifice, torture and incomprehensibly sadistic acts being tempted with immortality. Just means longer for them to have that kind of fun (not to mention more powerful physical traits).

You're portrayal of Elves Wolfen is overly arrogant. They can be conceited and haughty (Caledor II) but can be wise and welcoming (Caradryel the Peacemaker, Finubar). Elves value the strength and man and recognise their place in the world as crucial. Teclis, Ytrle and Finreir wouldn't have journeyed from Ulthuan to Altdorf to set up the colleges of magic during the time of Magnus the Pious if they had felt otherwise. As for the Dwarves, The Great Betrayal really does highlight the respect between the two races which has since clouded. Even Malekith, in his current guise at The Witch King respects the Dwarves. He makes that clear at one point to his assassins when they are trying to disrupt Dwarven caravans and frame the High Elves (the flash point which starts the events leading to the War of Vengeance).

Morathi and her coven still actively deal with Slaaneshi demons. My basis is that maybe only Dark Elves of this ilk would be tempted by vampirism i.e. it would be the only way of further increasing their already prodigious power beyond their rivals abilities. The general Dark Elf public don't worship or have anything to do with Slaanesh anymore, Gav Thorpe and GW retconned that completely out of the fluff in the 7th edition DE army book in August '08 which was subsequently followed by The Sundering series. The idea was that the descent in to debauchery should be done via their own pantheon of Gods (Cyarathai and in particular Atharti) rather than Chaos. Although as Gav says, this could make the Dark Elves inadvertently pawns of Slaanesh in the wider scheme of things without them wittingly knowing about it.

 

[Wolfen]

Thats how I see elves, woodster. As arrogant. I think the only reason they reach out to humans is because they know that they can no longer contain the evils of the world and so they use men as their shield. Sure, there may be a few here and there who come to view humans with affection, but I dont see that as a rule. And you can respect the strengths of your enemy while still maintaining belief in your own superiority. Respect doesnt cancel out arrogance. Especially when that respect has diminished over hundreds of years.

Also, at the end of the day runic use is magical. Runesmiths and Engineers are different, with Runesmiths being the closest thing to a mage in the dwarf army. You cannot compare dwarf engineering to elven magic. Rune craft is simply a different way of manipulating magic. I think, given enough time, that an elf could discover the secrets of Rune use. And time is something they have. Going hand in hand with that, "why bother firing cannons at people when you can annihilate them with powerful magic? Many of the devices created by other races primarily exist because they can't wield magic like the Asur and therefore needs more crude means of firing/building" is exactly the point I am trying to make. Elves see what they already have as superior, that the other races are trying to emulate them by creating weapons to compare with the elves natural power. Vampirism is simply another, lesser creation of humans in an attempt to emulate the elves, be they dark or light. Gunpowder has its own inherent (man, I seem to be using that word a lot)weaknesses that the elves do not need as they already are more accurate, have special rules etc as you mentioned. Vampirism also has weaknesses that I think outweigh the possible benefits to an elf. Dependence on blood being one. Not that finding victims would bother a dark elf, I think it is more the fact that they HAVE to do it.

But that is one of the things I kind of like about Warhammer. They give a rough outline of the races, create spectacular lore, then turn around and ignore half of it when they want to. It gives players the freedom to create their own version of warhammer. Do I think elves CAN be turned? Probably. Do I think they would ever WANT to? No. But if someone creates a Vampire army based around a vampiric elf would I refuse to play him because his fluff and mine dont agree? Not a chance. I'd say, sweet looking army. Lets play.

 

[woodster17]

This is a good table for debate. It turns ugly when opinions differ on Warseer

I love High Elves unashamedly. They're my join favourite army along with VC and therefore I'm inclined to see their good side more than others.

Just one thing i'd point out is that it's actually quite easy to compare HE magic to Dwarven Engineering. Dwarven engineering constructs machines which perform a whole manner of tasks, from menial to the extraordinary (like the Undgrim Ankor prior to the Time of Woes). I often point to the destruction of that as more important than say the loss of Karak Eight Peaks because if it had been left intact then Dwarves would have been able to ship huge quantities of troops between holds to reinforce relatively quickly through steam power. Alas, the Slann tectonic shifts caused earthquakes and put an end to that idea. However, as I was trying to say, the menial tasks that engineers constructions perform in Dwarven society are done by magic in Ulthuan. It's mentioned more in earlier HE army books that before receiving instruction in the more powerful High Magic battle spells in somewhere like the Tower of Hoeth, prospective mages and even normal citizen HE's get taught simple blessings which can either be used to pray to Isha or be involved in menial household tasks and labour. Magic really does do everything in Elven society,even clean and build, much as how Engineers are so important to the Dwarves.

Whether you like that idea or not is another matter I've heard a lot of people on background threads complain that the idea is a little too Disney (if you've ever watched the animated film The Sword in the Stone you'll understand haha).

 

[Wolfen]

Love Sword in the Stone, especially that sequence! (And Madame Mim of course, but who doesnt)

I'm a High Elf player also, though mostly because I really liked the IoB models. I'm more of a Wood Elf, in addition to my VC's, so maybe that is why I see elves as using the other races as a shield, a nice Bretonnia shaped one...

 

[Magpie]

But if someone creates a Vampire army based around a vampiric elf would I refuse to play him because his fluff and mine dont agree? Not a chance. I'd say, sweet looking army. Lets play.

That's all I need !

Great posts guys it has really fleshed out a lot of the lore for me.