Are Vampires only human?

[Shareya]

This is a good table for debate. It turns ugly when opinions differ on Warseer

I love High Elves unashamedly. They're my join favourite army along with VC and therefore I'm inclined to see their good side more than others.

Just one thing i'd point out is that it's actually quite easy to compare HE magic to Dwarven Engineering. Dwarven engineering constructs machines which perform a whole manner of tasks, from menial to the extraordinary (like the Undgrim Ankor prior to the Time of Woes). I often point to the destruction of that as more important than say the loss of Karak Eight Peaks because if it had been left intact then Dwarves would have been able to ship huge quantities of troops between holds to reinforce relatively quickly through steam power. Alas, the Slann tectonic shifts caused earthquakes and put an end to that idea. However, as I was trying to say, the menial tasks that engineers constructions perform in Dwarven society are done by magic in Ulthuan. It's mentioned more in earlier HE army books that before receiving instruction in the more powerful High Magic battle spells in somewhere like the Tower of Hoeth, prospective mages and even normal citizen HE's get taught simple blessings which can either be used to pray to Isha or be involved in menial household tasks and labour. Magic really does do everything in Elven society,even clean and build, much as how Engineers are so important to the Dwarves.

Whether you like that idea or not is another matter I've heard a lot of people on background threads complain that the idea is a little too Disney (if you've ever watched the animated film The Sword in the Stone you'll understand haha).

I have yet to find a thread on VC that has turned all that ugly/bad. People are lovely and mature here...mostly!

 

[Magpie]

Just ignoring the whole dark magic incompatibility thing for a moment, as there are some High Elves in the chat I was wondering if any can come up with an idea of what might drive a high elf from the path of light?

I see there are civil wars within the elves so obviously rivalries etc and they seem to be in possession of normal emotions so would they have greed, love, animosity, disenfranchisement, banishment, ambition or other such things as motivators that would draw them away from the Elf main stream society?

 

[woodster17]

Actually The Sundering was explained as boredom on the part of the Elves of Nagarythe. The great war against Chaos had ended and the Asur were living in peacetime. As such, with magic so inherent in the society in terms of menial tasks, a fair few Elves found themselves without much to do.

The Blood of Aenarion book prologue implies that Morathi was already evil. As such, when she established the cults of Atharti and Khaine, she already had alternative ideas in mind beyond a bit of fun and worship. Plenty of Elves joined up (even High Elves can be hedonistic- Graham McNeill's Defenders of Ulthuan series highlights that) and it went from there.

Love certainly is an emotion which can warp a High Elf. They're passionate beings. Revenge too, as highlighted with Gilead in Gilead's Blood. His twin brother is murdered and he goes a little...deranged. A new Gilead book coming out soon so that should be cool. There are plenty of emotions which can twist an individual Elf. It can even happen to the best of them (Malekith). Just pick one and run with it! I'm sure nobody would complain about your background for your army.

 

[Ghouly]

the elixer that created vampirisim in the first place used human blood its made spicificaly for humans, also keep in mind the Blood Kiss doesn't always work on humans sometimes the mortal just dies, turning a completly different race would be tha much harder

 

[Irisado]

Unless the vampirism was a means to an end, in which case the attraction isn't to vampirism but rather as a method of achieving an otherwise unattainable goal.

To what end though? What unattainable goal would there be for a High Elf? Based on all the comments in this thread, and my own knowledge, I can't think of a plausible one. It's very easy to think of reasons why humans would be tempted to become vampires, but not High Elves.

On the subject of playing against an army led by a High Elf vampire, I certainly wouldn't complain or refuse to play against it. It's not something that I would expect to see though.

 

[Magpie]

Unless the vampirism was a means to an end, in which case the attraction isn't to vampirism but rather as a method of achieving an otherwise unattainable goal.

To what end though? What unattainable goal would there be for a High Elf? Based on all the comments in this thread, and my own knowledge, I can't think of a plausible one. It's very easy to think of reasons why humans would be tempted to become vampires, but not High Elves.

On the subject of playing against an army led by a High Elf vampire, I certainly wouldn't complain or refuse to play against it. It's not something that I would expect to see though.

A Dragon Princess, noted for their arrogance, sides with the wrong Elf in a battle over who becomes the Phoenix Lord (is that the ruler?) and refuses to swear fealty to the new Lord because when he was younger he sent her true love off on a hopeless mission to ensure his death so he wouldn't be competition for the Lordship.

The princess and her loyal followers were therefore banished and dispossessed of their family lands.

The elves find kindred spirits in the Vampires (my Vampires) who are motivated by a simple desire to defend their homes against invaders and hold a deep bitterness against those who forced Vampirism upon them. The Princess and her loyal followers join the vamp army to ride again! (They don't actually lead the army, they are just an important part of it)

As Vampires they are far stronger, are self repairing and will never tire.

 

[woodster17]

Unless the vampirism was a means to an end, in which case the attraction isn't to vampirism but rather as a method of achieving an otherwise unattainable goal.

To what end though? What unattainable goal would there be for a High Elf? Based on all the comments in this thread, and my own knowledge, I can't think of a plausible one. It's very easy to think of reasons why humans would be tempted to become vampires, but not High Elves.

On the subject of playing against an army led by a High Elf vampire, I certainly wouldn't complain or refuse to play against it. It's not something that I would expect to see though.

Doesn't make a whole lot of difference if you don't have a choice though. I doubt when Walach Harkon showed up many of the denizens of Blood Keep fancied being a vampire yet it happened. Defeat and Elf or Dwarf in battle... grant the Blood Kiss when on the verge of death. How they'd react is another matter though.

Forgot to mention earlier on that the G+F novel Vampireslayer mentions that Dwarfs are very occasionally turned in to vampires, yet it doesn't happen very often. William King (teh author) mentions that it's rare but not out of the question. Dwarf blood tastes weirdly of stone though and occasionally the Blood Kiss fails. But it happens. Stands to reason that if Dwarfs (probably the most magically resistant race) can be turned than Elves can too. Whether they like it or not.

 

[Irisado]

A Dragon Princess, noted for their arrogance, sides with the wrong Elf in a battle over who becomes the Phoenix Lord (is that the ruler?) and refuses to swear fealty to the new Lord because when he was younger he sent her true love off on a hopeless mission to ensure his death so he wouldn't be competition for the Lordship.

The princess and her loyal followers were therefore banished and dispossessed of their family lands.

The elves find kindred spirits in the Vampires (my Vampires) who are motivated by a simple desire to defend their homes against invaders and hold a deep bitterness against those who forced Vampirism upon them. The Princess and her loyal followers join the vamp army to ride again! (They don't actually lead the army, they are just an important part of it)

As Vampires they are far stronger, are self repairing and will never tire.

That doesn't explain why they would seek out a vampire.

You could easily have a scenario based on revenge without the High Elves needing to resort to vampirism in view of all the benefits that High Elves already have. I don't see that they would view becoming a vampire as making them stronger considering their existing racial benefits, and, let's not forget, their arrogance.

 

[woodster17]

I agree with Irisado here, it'd be much easier to suggest that a Dragon Princess was unwittingly turned (even though I'm highly convinced that the Blood Kiss would cause a magical implosion in the Asur) by a Vampire and in a fit of anguish and rage she turns her fellows in to her get's too.

The Phoenix King would never be decided with arms by the way. The only time that really happened was during The Sundering- the entire kingdom very nearly got annihilated as a result. It's now done harmoniously in a council at the Shrine of Asuryan and involves all the princes from each kingdom, the Everqueen and the High Loremaster of the White Tower (currently Teclis). This is because to receive the blessing of Asuryan there needs to be unanimous agreement before the Priests at the shrine perform sanctified blessings before the prospective Phoenix King receives the blessing of the flames. Last time someone tried that little trick without the blessing it was Malekith- and he got crispy fried. Morvael the Impetuous (3rd most recent Phoenix King) even committed suicide while walking in to the Flames despite already being Phoenix King after he was tricked to receiving information that the Druchii had slaughtered thousands of Asur.

 

[Magpie]

I agree with Irisado here, it'd be much easier to suggest that a Dragon Princess was unwittingly turned (even though I'm highly convinced that the Blood Kiss would cause a magical implosion in the Asur) by a Vampire and in a fit of anguish and rage she turns her fellows in to her get's too.

Ok so I could work in a deception to make the elves vampiric, that probably works better any way as it explains away a lot of the complexities of getting them to submit willingly. On the other hand tho' everyone has their point, Ulrika was a sworn Vampire slayer before she submitted tot eh Blood Kiss.

The Phoenix King would never be decided with arms by the way. The only time that really happened was during The Sundering- the entire kingdom very nearly got annihilated as a result.

OK but the expulsion of my Dragon Princess Elves could date to that time tho'.

 

[woodster17]

Yeah that'd make sense- Nagarythe (Malekith's kingdom) and Caledor (home of the Dragon Princes) famously don't get along at all (and that's putting it nicely). You could easily think of something revolving around that storyline.

Ulrika didn't submit to the Blood Kiss at all. She was forcibly overwhelmed. I've no doubt she was a lithe, strong warrior but when a vampire like Adolphus Krieger (who was a reasonably powerful Von Carstein) wants to give you the Blood Kiss there isn't an awful lot you can do. Read the passage where Ulrika is granted the Blood Kiss again. I'll give you a snippet.

'No', she forced herself to say.
'Yes,' he said, springing on her, his fangs emerging, his eyes glowing with a hellish light. She tried to dodge but she was dazed and slow. He caught her easily. His fingers burned on her neck. She grabbed his wrists and tried to pry his hands away but he was far too strong... A surge of ecstasy passed through her body as his teeth bit into her neck. Strength drained from her along with all will to resist.

It's been mentioned a few times in the fluff that once you've been overcome and the Blood Kiss begins it actually feels quite good and with your resistance evaporated you can enjoy it. However, she certainly didn't willingly submit and fought her hardest to stop it happening.

 

[Magpie]

Great two regions of Elf land who don't get on is all I need !

For Ulrika I've only read the "Blood..." series of novels so I was going off :

"Travelling alone with the vampire for hundreds of miles as his coach hurried through the winter snows towards Sylvania, she had fought against his unnatural charisma, but eventually she had succumbed, and allowed him to drink from her."

Which I took to mean complicity.

Wouldn't the beguilement also extend to the Elves ? Albeit a little more difficult.

 

[woodster17]

Ah ok. Well Nathan Long's altered the description of it by the original author Bill King. I'd tend to go by King's, although I do enjoy the Blood... trilogy. Hope Long produces some more!

Elves wouldn't be immune to beguilement no. Particularly if you had a VonC or Lahmian turn them, who are more adept at the charismatic aspects of being a vampire. I think you could easily make it work if you wanted to. It's your fluff any way, run with it and enjoy it!

 

[Shareya]

How can we be sure the bite will have the same effects on a elf? o.o Specially when their blood is nasty-nasty towards the bloodsuckers as well.

And yes, got to remember that Ulrika's resistance was worn down over a fairly long period of time before she got the kiss.

 

[Irisado]

I'm still not overly convinced. Yes, you can make a case for an unwitting, and unwilling incident whereby a vampire would attempt to unleash the blood kiss, but in terms of the probability of it happening, it would be very low. Humans are a much easier target for vampires, and the effects are far more certain.

 

[woodster17]

Yeah agreed, but it can and does happen. Bill King mentions that Dwarfs can and do become vampires so it'd make sense for an Elf to have the possibility of becoming one too. Maybe the Vampire likes a challenge? Or maybe he just thought 'screw it, i've been alive for 1,500 years, let's experiment a little bit'.

And no Sainna, in that magic post I made on the last page, I'd be inclined to agree with you that it might not work. That 'spark' that we hear of so often in the fluff which wizards use in their particular wind to draw power from would probably react badly, very badly with Dhar in the Blood Kiss in the Asur. Smashing High Magic and Dark Magic together is almost never particularly friendly.

 

[Magpie]

I'm still not overly convinced. Yes, you can make a case for an unwitting, and unwilling incident whereby a vampire would attempt to unleash the blood kiss, but in terms of the probability of it happening, it would be very low. Humans are a much easier target for vampires, and the effects are far more certain.

Suits me, if I get in first and have my lady, vampire, Dragon Princess Cavalry no one else would be allowed to follow suit !

 

[Tawg]

Yeah agreed, but it can and does happen. Bill King mentions that Dwarfs can and do become vampires so it'd make sense for an Elf to have the possibility of becoming one too. Maybe the Vampire likes a challenge? Or maybe he just thought 'screw it, i've been alive for 1,500 years, let's experiment a little bit'.

And no Sainna, in that magic post I made on the last page, I'd be inclined to agree with you that it might not work. That 'spark' that we hear of so often in the fluff which wizards use in their particular wind to draw power from would probably react badly, very badly with Dhar in the Blood Kiss in the Asur. Smashing High Magic and Dark Magic together is almost never particularly friendly.

Or better yet, perhaps the vampire wishes to turn an Asur such that they can use their natural magical knowledge/gift to help raise Necromancy (An inferior magic) to the heights that High Magic could be said to have. I could see a Necrarch trying to make an "Ascended Necromancy" school.


At anyrate, I read this whole thread, because I came to the fluff section to ask a question and this thread seemed relevant, though it seems to have answered my question I'll still ask:

Can non-humanoids be Vampiric? From looking over everything it appears that rather much, Vampirism is a niche "Curse" born of the (Desire? Addled mind?) of humanity (Or some power that wished to punish them, maybe?).

So I would assume the Answer, as far as Warhammer Fluff goes, is no? Although I did hear mention that there was a "Vampiric Giant" which bears the question, since I wouldn't exactly consider "Giants" on the same level as any humanoid, despite appearance (I mean trolls are as humanoid, could such be a Vampire?). But I'm also more interested in more.. bestial types, such as say, a Gryphon or Dragon (Ect.)? It sounds like in Warhammer: No.

EDIT: Also in relation to the more Bestial/Non-standard races as Vamps: I rather much love the image of "Mad Scientist" trying to stew and brood new and more devastating creations; Making that Mad Scientist a potent spell-caster and Vampire? Naturally lends itself to the inherent pursuit of any possible result. Although I understand "Rules" make preclude such possibilities, which rather much makes sense for Vampires to have such an array of Undead Beast at their command, especially the typical "Frankenstein Beast" in the Abyssal Horror.

Do you have thoughts on personal opinion (Dropping the WHFB Fluff)? Such as the essential nature of Vampires in general, that would prohibit them from being a desirable "Template" for any race in other fictions? Clearly in our personal history (Humanity, in reality) vampires take our form rather much by necessity, and our desire/fears born real, though I would not suspect it unlikely that our own Mythos would preclude other species from such dark Gifts/Curses.

I look forward to hearing your opinions :konrad:

 

[Shareya]

Personally I prefer if vampires in most settings remain mostly humans with -MAYBE- a rare elf here and there. Though this is how it usually is as well I believe? Even in Skyrim you pretty much had humans as vamps with a rare dark elf.

human power \o/

 

[The Dread King]

Skyrim is heresy! Why, oh why did you stick up for the humans, Dovakhiin?

 

[Irisado]

Tawg: Dropping Warhammer background doesn't change anything for me. The references to races other than humans succumbing to Vampirism are few and far between, so in the vast majority of cases, it's only ever going to be humans who become vampires.

 

[Tawg]

Tawg: Dropping Warhammer background doesn't change anything for me. The references to races other than humans succumbing to Vampirism are few and far between, so in the vast majority of cases, it's only ever going to be humans who become vampires.

Well, I have a sneaking suspicion that "Vampires" are "Bound" to humanity just because of their more.. cultural roots. They are myths for our own history, and less woven from the fabric of imagination for the sake of it.

I see no reason why Vampires would be so stuck to humanity personally, though I could see reason that they may not exactly be greater beast (Wyverns/Manticores/etc); Although I will say that Vampire was, in D&D, simply a template that could be applied to any other race as a modifier, and if D&D doesn't hold water I don't know what does (Speaking of fantasy).

I think it stands to reason other races could easily be turned, though there is nothing I can do to alter the back-story that GW has presented/built. But dragons certainly have intelligence, and more than one are wizards themselves (I think? Isn't that two-headed Chaos dragon a wizard? Grouch or something); I could see a dragon being a vampire.

"Why doesn't your zombie dragon have a vampire mounted on it?"

"He is the vampire! Baw-hahahaha!"

 

[Irisado]

Nope, I can't go along with any of that I'm afraid. You'd have to explain to me why a dragon would want to be a vampire, and how vampirism could even be contracted by a dragon. I wish you the best of luck in finding references to back this idea up .

There's nothing wrong with being creative, but there are limits in the background in terms of plausibility in the background in my view. As was discussed here some time ago, vampirism could, although it's very unlikely, occur in other races, but in dragons? No, I'm sorry, but that's a leap too far.

 

[Shareya]

There's nothing wrong with being creative, but there are limits in the background in terms of plausibility in the background in my view.

<3 this.

 

[Tawg]

Which was quite possibly why I said

I think it stands to reason other races could easily be turned, though there is nothing I can do to alter the back-story that GW has presented/built.

I understand that Warhammer won't have any "Vampire Dragons" any time soon, but I mean, in any other fantasy from scratch? I see no way you can justify that they can never be vampires.

And why would they want to? Why do people want to kill each other, commit murder, suicide, genocide, hate crimes? Plenty of people do rather senseless things; Maybe the dragon thinks mortals are worthless as pawns so he becomes a necromancer/Vampire by some amount of research to control his undead horde to conquest? Maybe dragons aren't eternal, and being a Vampire is (Screw living for eons, live for..ever..)? Perhaps it's literally just unstable in the mind and did so on a whim, or on some maddened disillusion? Or perhaps even still, one must not always desire what happens to themselves; Some crazed other person/entity did it to a dragon?

One thing I hate about non-human races, especially when one get's to talking about mentalities, is that there is no way we can truly detach "Humanity" from something we create; We inherently must have views and logic that relates somehow to views or logic we understand. They go to war, but they do so for emotions, or mechanical reason, they can not do so for truly "Alien" motives. We will understand it to some degree. They experience emotion, but none outside of the range of emotion we understand; They can't because we are their progenitors.

But even still, I think you place far too much want on this "Prove another race would X or Y" logic of yours. You assume far too much. There is no mental instability in a "Superior" race? No outliers or completely off base individuals? There is no allowance for anything but what you consider "Normal," which in and of itself is quite often vague and not defined. We're not dealing with robots, these are not creatures written of code and "If/Then" statements, with no sense of Agency (As in to say the philosophical ability to make choices free from simple cause and effect situations).

I agree completely that Vampire-Dragons are not for Warhammer, but your basis of defense is, IMO, rather poor. You ask for proof of burden on anyone with an idea outside of what you've seen or know, when you can (I hope) not know what all is possible in the universe (Of Warhammer). All I was suggesting was simply that there is no reason "Vampire Dragons" are inherently impossible to every stretch of the imagination, and I can't quite tell if you are responding simply from the perspective of Warhammer, or if you truly think that impossible from any angle. I certainly see no reason for this boorishly narrow view of vampires to apply to all fantasy realms, even if Warhammer is stuck in a rather "Traditional" view.