BA - 8th Edition Review: Lahmian

[Bishop]

I'd be okay with a 4+, but can only cause a single wound; and no model can lose more then 1 wound to BTS.

Seduction - I'll go read it again

Edit:

Either I'm REALLY tired, or you want a different power reviewed? :zombie:

Quote whatever you want us to look at... thx.

 

[Montesque]

Well, this is my first significant contribution to one of the user projects, hopefully it's not in any way amiss.

One thing I noticed looking at the list, as well as a number of comments by various folks, was the dearth of "counting" core units. Now, all of those which we either don't have counting or don't have in core have good reasons for being thus, but even so it leaves us in the rather strange position of being limited to a single, US 10 unit plus a whole bunch of skeletons being our only options for filling out 25% of our army.

So here is my idea for replacing the ghouls: The Harridans

The jealousy of the Lahmians knows no bounds. While any man who stands against one of these beautiful creatures soon finds himself as her thrall, or "swain", women meet a much worse fate. Their minds are broken utterly by the vampires, and these pathetic, shrieking wretches, called "Harridans" by the disdainful Lahmians, are sent before the vampiric armies in a reckless rage, believing that only death can release them from the torments heaped upon them by the vicious sisterhood of vampires.

Harridan: Pts ?? (probably around 8-10)
M WS BS S T W I A LD
4 3 0 4 3 1 3 2 5
Rules: Frenzy, skirmishers,
Weapons: Long fingernails, teeth

Options: May upgrade one Harridan per unit to a Virago for ?? points (+10?). Viragos have +1 toughness
A Virago may be given a Dark Heart for 50 Points.
Dark Heart: The dark deeds a Harridan is forced to commit by the Lahmians leave their souls subject to more easily being manipulated after death. Thus, even in death the sinister sisterhood continues to torment these poor women
If the Virago carrying a Dark Heart is slain, place a banshee within 2d6" of the spot where the model was last placed. This banshee functions in all respects as the champion of a unit of wraiths, and may be placed into combat.
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With this unit I wanted to add another suitable core unit which would sort of take the place of the ghouls while retaining a more Lahmian flavor. The stats, rules and fluff do that reasonably well, I think.

The Dark Heart and banshee generating aspect result because it seems to me that banshees fit the theme of the Lahmians very well, between being one of the few definitely female units in the army as well as playing to the Ld theme which so many of the vampiric powers work off of.

If this is unwanted or unnecessary, no harm done, it just seemed that it might be a reasonable (and fun) way to flesh out (hah!) the rather skeletal core choices which the Lahmians currently have available.

Oh, and on a final, mostly unrelated note, I humbly suggest that the limit on swain entourages be boosted back up to US 20, because with all the new rules benefiting large units, especially the ones regarding when ranks can and can't be disrupted, a 10 person (or 5 cavalry) unit is almost useless.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Great post Montesque - and one that I really like. The suggestion is really fluffy and nicely fills the core, so I would be happy to say yes to it.

A couple of things to clarify - are they classed as Undead as Ghouls are? I think they should be. The Black Heart idea I really like, though I am not sure if it needs tweaking. It is something that might not happen all game and for 50pts I think that might be expensive? Perhaps it would be simpler to upgrade her to give her a weaker version of the Banshee's Howl? So just 2D6 instead of 2D6+2, and cost that t +25/30pts?

I also agreed on the US of the entourage with the new rules - does anyone have objections?

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Oh and Bishop - yes sorry, I was on about Divine Beauty, not Seduction.

I have just noticed something else - shouldn't the Wight King have the same upgrade options as the GG? So access to full plate and Halberds?

 

[Montesque]

The undead bit I wasn't sure about, but yes, I think that it would probably be better for them to be.

Glad you liked the unit idea Oh, and I also like the tweak to the banshee ability. The high points cost though was so that it by killing the Virago you would already have covered the VP's for the banshee, and so you wouldn't have to keep track of and count that separately.

Oh, and two things I forgot to put into the post as it stands: after the Dark Heart has been used, the Virago cannot be raised by any means, and the unit size of the Harridans is something like...5+? not sure about that, but I realized I hadn't put anything, previously.

 

[Bishop]

I know that these are meant to replace ghouls.. but I'd be careful! Ghouls are considered by some to be under-costed.

I like the unit, it seems good. However, 3 atks at S4 for 8-10 points is probably a bit much.

I agree with keep the lesser "Banshee" ability as just a unit champion upgrade.

On Divine Beauty - I'm pretty sure that stupid wizards would already be unable to cast/dispel as per the base rules. I'd say stupidity kicks in at the start of the turn. As well as, when a unit who started the turn more then 18" away moves into the 18" bubble. The only problem with the second part is to try and figure out the wording correctly... as well as how it should affect the unit? Should it move it's movement from the 18" bubble? Should it continue forward d6"? Should it just stop immediately?

 

[Montesque]

Right, I think we should probably go up to 10, yes...but I think the 3 S4 attacks is appropriate for the following reasons

Dryads, a similar core unit, have a ward save and T4, w/ 2 S4 attacks. Thus, they have 1/3rd less offense, but vastly improved defense, so I think the two are comparable.

Ghouls, which as you correctly noted these are meant to replace, have essentially the same stats, but with S and T switched, plus poisoned attacks. It seems to me that the lack of poisoned attacks and the much more sure casualties that go with them necessitates a suitable replacement, and so it seemed logical that more (but less sure) wounds would be a suitable switch out for fewer (more sure) wounds.

Plus, the 3rd attack isn't guaranteed, and they'll only get it as long as they keep winning (I believe frenzy still works that way.)

That said, I think anywhere up to 12 points would be perfectly reasonable. Or giving them A1 + Frenzy, though that would almost certainly bring them back down to 8 I should think.

And in regards to the stupidity issue, I think having them just stop once they hit that range makes the most sense...if nothing else because it makes things just a little bit simpler.

Oh, and for what it's worth, thank y'all for making me feel very welcome I look forward to working on the other 4 variant army lists

 

[Sweeney Todd]

I like the idea of the Harridans, but don't overestimate them. 10 points is too much for what they do. Their nearest equivalent, Witch Elves cost 10 points. They have 1 less S but a vastly superior statline, Poison and Eternal Hatred when compared to Harridans. At the moment I'd say Harridans are worth 8 points apiece. As for the champion turning into a Banshee when killed, there should be a rule stipulating that the Banshee does not give any VPs when killed since that is what you indicated as your intention.

As for the stupidity power, I second the idea of causing enemies to stop once they enter the range.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Right then, here are what I think we have to round up

Divine Beauty
Fluff as per original
Any enemy units (including those that are immune to Psychology) that are within 18" at the start every turn must take a Leadership test at -2. If failed they act as if they had failed a stupidity test. Enemy wizards that fail this test in their turn, they may not add their magic level the following to dispelling attempts in the next friendly turn. In addition any enemy units that move into 18" range any any point during the turn and can drawn LOS must also take the test as described about. If failed as well as suffering the effects of stupidity the must immediately stop, providing it is not in impassable terrain, another unit etc. If it is in such a position the unit must clear the obstruction and then stop.


The Harridans - 10pts
The jealousy of the Lahmians knows no bounds. While any man who stands against one of these beautiful creatures soon finds himself as her thrall, or "swain", women meet a much worse fate. Their minds are broken utterly by the vampires, and these pathetic, shrieking wretches, called "Harridans" by the disdainful Lahmians, are sent before the vampiric armies in a reckless rage, believing that only death can release them from the torments heaped upon them by the vicious sisterhood of vampires.

M 4 - WS 3 - BS 0 - S 4 - T 3 - W 1 - I 4 - A2 - Ld 5

Weapons: Long fingernails, teeth (count as hand weapon)

Unit Size: 10-20 (any comments? I was thinking 5-15, but 5 seems kinda useless)
One unit counts towards core requirement for every unit of skeletons taken.

Rules
Frenzy
Skirmishers,

Options: May upgrade one Harridan per unit to a Virago for +10 points. Viragos have +1 toughness
A Virago may be given a Dark Heart for 25pts

Dark Heart
The dark deeds a Harridan is forced to commit by the Lahmians drives some of them insane. Those who have truly been broken screech with such agony that it can shatter minds
The Virago has the Banshee's Howl special rule with the exception that 2D6 is rolled instead of 2D6+2.


Perhaps there could be an option to scout as well? <- No, DoN... Bad!

I'm trying to wrap this up as soon as possible as I am due to play a game against Oni using the Lahmian rules

 

[Bishop]

What's with the 10 Ld?

I think that they should cost 10 points a model. 9 just seems really bizarre for a point value.

Champ upgrade = cost is fine (be that 9 or 10).

Unit size? something like 5-15, 5-20, 10-20?

Scouts might be too much for those... a scouting Banshee, even downgraded, just seems like a bad idea to me.

Also, will need to stipulate a limitation on the number of units. My suggestion is that one unit counts towards min Core for every one unit of Skeletons. This would allow you to take more units if you wanted to... but without being ridiculous

 

[Bishop]

Divine Beauty
Fluff as per original
Any enemy units (including those that are immune to Psychology) that are within 18" at the start every turn must take a Leadership test at -2. If failed they act as if they had failed a stupidity test. Enemy wizards that fail this test may not add their magic level to casting/dispelling attempts until the current players next turn. In addition any enemy units that move into 18" range at any point during the turn and can drawn LOS must also take the test as described above. If failed as well as suffering the effects of stupidity and they must immediately stop, providing it is not in impassable terrain, another unit etc. If it is in such a position the unit must clear the obstruction and then stop.

That should cover the Wizard's for one "full" turn... which I think is what you were aiming for..

 

[Count Lasombra]

I think 9 is a fair price,they are only T3,maybe if you give'em Init 4 they'd be worth 10.I think they need 4 init anyway.Scouting is OTT for a core replacement.
I'd make their LD 4. They are reckless deathseekers afterall,this may offset the fact that they have 3 attacks a little bit.Personally,I think this is too many attacks for a core troop choice and it creates opportunities for abuse.I know there is some inferred math or whatever that is supposed to make it not so strong,BUT,3 attacks gives you the capability of winning combat by a much larger margin.VC core are supposed to suck...at least a little.
Helm of command/Okkam's/Vanhel's to the face FTW.It's an extreme example but one or more of those factors is quite likely to be in play at any time,there are other horrible combos too.
Also,comparing them to dryads in a vaccum is somewhat misleading.Almost everything else in the WE army has trouble surviving a stiff breeze(Forest spirits excluded).
Stopping enemy units during their movement phase with a static ability is like having a force field around your army,IMHO it's broken,I don't think I'd agree to play against it...seems unfair.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Ok,

I have changed the Harridens in my earlier post, changing points to 10, increasing their I to 4, Ld down to 5 (that was a mistake anyway) and placing a limitation on fulfilling core requirement.

Lasombra - I disagree about the Divine Beauty power being broken. It is 100 pts for a start, requires LOS which generals can use screens for, plus with the BSB re-roll has reduced its effectiveness. Finally it doesn't do any direct damage and once any unit is engaged in combat it is of no more use.

I definitely think it should be playtested before being declared OP.

 

[Bishop]

Looks good DoN... I edited in a unit size and removed your scouting comment... sorry it's too broken..

 

[Count Lasombra]

You may be right DON,maybe it seems worse than it is.I was imagining if you'd had that power against the OK,you'd stand a good chance of paralyzing a large portion of his army,during a pivotal movement phase.I wasn't saying the ability itself was OP,I just don't think it should stop units who are already moving,that's all.
100 points will also get you a wizard's dunce cap or a folding tower .

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Ok, I have updated the very first post with the new unit and powers change....now I am going to make an army list vs Oni

 

[Bishop]

A couple of minor edits in first post...

 

[Montesque]

Awesome DoN. Hope everything works well, I'll be eager to hear your results.

Anyone know which army is next?

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Are there any more suggestions or comments on this? If not I confirm the changes.

In the meantime I will go start the next thread.

 

[Darkblossom]

Just some remaining questions:

Regarding unit size of entourage : I agree with Montesque and DoN that the maximum size of 10 is too limited in 8th edition. Should it be OK of we raise this to 15 (= one additional rank)?

Regarding upgrades of entourage : We agreed that normal unit upgrades kan be bought (command and weapon upgrades). Does a look-out gnoblar of Ogre Kingdoms fall under normal upgrade? I would say yes.

Wight King upgrade with full plate: This seems indeed logical to me (since all lesser Wights can take this upgrade ). How much should full upgrade cost ?

The Harridans : I realy like the concept (nice fluf)! This certainly gives more diversity to the core choices. Nice job!

 

[Sweeney Todd]

I completely missed the fact that Harridans would be skirmishing. If that's the case then I think the points cost of 10 a piece is workable.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Entourage size: Personally I think a US20 is probably ok now, especially due to step up.

In regards to upgrades, I would say all normal upgrades available to the unit are an option. For Swains they are also allowed access to everything they normally would, so powers, marks, mundane and magical upgrades etc.

Currently for the Wight King I have placed the cost of full plate for +8pts

 

[Bishop]

All good to me!

 

[WeakNagash345]

wow thats a lot of writeing to read :zombie: but i like the sound of it but then again it was a lot to read :zombie:....
BTW pls check out my new character post it can be found on necrarch`s workshop by me!

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Ok - the first post has some final changes if you all want to check and let me know what you think.